Thinking of switching from Klonopin to Ambein CR here is why and any thoughts?

[[Bo...]]

@pamster

Currently on 2mg Klonopin once per day just before bed for about 9 months. I take them for sleep as SSRI's have side effects that are not tolerable. I take for two reasons but both for sleep. Anxiety and Medical PTSD and unresolved Sacrum pain from fall. Yes I've done PT and Chiropractor and was told Acupuncture would not be of any help from a Acupuncturist. So to deal with my inablilty to sleep normally at night, I take the Klonopin to suppress my mind. Also for got my enlarged prostate which even with medication wakes me up ever 2 hrs or so.

 

With Klonopin I can get about 4 hours of non stop sleep. May not sound like much but without its about every 90 minutes. So much for the time needed for the brain to cycle through all the stages of sleep to feel reinvigorated.  Since I have several medical reasons for my sleep issues and treatment of the individual issues has not helped with my sleep, I need help sleeping one way or another. 

 

This is where the idea of swapping one bad option for one that is also bad but maybe less bad is a good option? Neither use the same mechanism of action but yes they are very similar. Neither are for long term but I have no real options that I know of. Ambein CR only not just Ambein is what I am leaning toward over klonopin only . Why ? effective time of Ambein CR is about 6 to 8 hrs and half life is shorter than Klonopin. I would taper off Klonopin before starting Ambein CR. Of course this assume my Dr will approve. My Dr also just left a large hospital office so I will get the next new Dr so I'll see where that goes. 

Any thoughts on the less bad option may be the best option? Again I have multiple issues that effect my inability to sleep.

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[Bo...], thanks for starting your own thread, I hope we can work something out.  

With you getting so little sleep while taking this amount of Klonopin, your body appears to be dependent and also tolerant to this dose.  I’m concerned about your plan to taper from the Klonopin before starting the Ambien, this will most likely destroy what little sleep you’re getting now. 

May I ask, have you gone without your dose in the past few months to see if you experience withdrawal symptoms besides insomnia?  Also, do you feel symptoms during the day, before your nighttime dose?

[[Bo...]]

I can still get to sleep but I only get 1.5 to 2 hrs sleep each time due to a little bit of all the medical issues I have that mess with sleep. I can get 10 hr of total bedtime but broken up into 1.5 to 2 hrs pieces. With klonopin I can get 3 or 4 hrs sleep at a time. It may not seem like much but compared to much smaller sleep times its a improvement. This has been my life of sleep since 2006.

 

Summarize what interferes with my sleep are:

In 2006 spinal surgery that helped me walk but put in in chronic pain since daily. I also have medical PSTD due to waking up while intubated  but strapped down and began to suffocate while fighting the machine. 

In 2007 I found my 12 yr old son hung. What made it worse is I thought/hoped he was still alive. So that gave me PTSD.

In 2021 my wife hung herself.

IN 2022, I fell on my sacrum (base of spine) and it pushed it in. I've done the PT, Chiropractor routine with no relief from pain. Due to my medical PSTD I will not get surgery.

In early 2023 after ignoring the symptoms I went to the Dr for enlarged prostate that make me go every 90 min to 2 hrs with medication. I cannot get surgery for same reason as above.

All I want is to sleep and feel refreshed after 7 or 8 hrs. Maybe not possible due to my issues. Not sleeping normally for 17 years is not fun but we all have burdens that we must bear.

I was on Klonopin for about 5 years starting in 2006. I tapered off by 1/2 dose over 30 days. I've been off till spring 2023 when my previous issues and new issues collided. This all goes to my question of tapering off klonopin over time now and only then switching to Ambein CR. Assuming I can do that successfully, is that not a less destructive path? Of course under a Dr supervision.

Daniel

 

[[Pa...]]

I can see you’re dealing with severe emotional and physical issues, I’m so very sorry for the loss of your son and wife but I’m not hopeful your plan will work.

Your previous and current experience with Klonopin leads me to believe you’ll develop tolerance to the Ambien shortly after starting it.  To taper from the amount of Klonopin you’re taking will take many months, then we have to factor in recovery which can take as long or longer than the taper.

 I truly believe your body will need more and more of the Ambien to work due to your previous use.  I know you don’t want to hear this and I could be wrong but my own experience with Ambien is informing my opinion.

I hate that I haven’t offered you a solution, only obstacles, I hope we can continue to talk and hopefully others will stop by. 

[[Bo...]]

For clarity I have never abused my prescription or taken illegal meds. If anything, I under took my meds as I dont take pain meds if my pain is tolerable. I've also untaken my Klonopin by taking only 1 mg instead of the prescribed two mg. I dont mean this makes me special or a exception to it cant happen to me BS type of thinking. I do understand I am dependent but not addicted.  My only evidence is my 17 years of opioid use without abuse and on my own taking my Morphine Milligram Equivalents from over 300 down to 47 per day on my own after doing much reading over many months. This does not make me special it is just the way it worked out.

[[Bo...]]

@[Pa...] " I truly believe your body will need more and more of the Ambien to work due to your previous use.  I know you don’t want to hear this and I could be wrong but my own experience with Ambien is informing my opinion. "

 

I want your thoughts regardless of if they agree or not with mine. I am interested in why you think swapping one for the other will not work? As long as one does not abuse Ambein, the effective time and half live is far better than Klonopin. I am not a medical person but I am technically educated so I would appreciate the details for your conclusion. I am not disagreeing but I am wishing to understand the foundation of your thoughts. Daniel

[[Da...]]

Hi Daniel.

I believe the problem you will have is when you go to taper the Klonopin of 2mg a day is you will hit withdrawal. 2mg is a high dose and a serious taper to get off. You may be lucky with no issues getting off which I hope you do but chances are you will hit withdrawal. 

Speaking from experience with klonopin at 1mg a day, I swapped to 20mg a day of Valium then tapered from there. It's been a smoother ride down but still shit.

I too used it for sleep but become tolerant then hit tolerance withdrawal. It was hell.

If you get off, then Ambien tolerance will build up really quick but if that's your option then I wish you all the best. I hope you get the relief you need.🙂

[[Pa...]]

Hi @[Bo...], I’m sorry if I gave you the impression I saw addictive behavior in your medication use, that never entered my mind, most of our members have only taken these drugs and others as prescribed so you’re in the majority here. 

What concerns me is not addiction but dependence and your body appears to be dependent on the Klonopin and a result of this dependence is tolerance, we need more to achieve the same effect.  While benzodiazepines and z-drugs are different, they share many of the same properties and work on the same receptors so I can see your body becoming dependent then tolerant to the Ambien quickly. 

I wanted to share a link with you about kindling and why I suspect your previous use of Klonopin could be adding to your troubles now and why I believe the same will happen with the Ambien CR. https://www.benzoinfo.com/kindling/

When I started taking Ambien around 6 months after my cold turkey it helped me sleep, but then tolerance set in within weeks and my body needed more.  I wasn’t taking the CR version so I don’t have experience but even if it helps with interdose, tolerance is still a probability. 

Ambien really scares me, on top of the anxiety, inner trembling, insomnia and nausea tolerance produced were the darkest thoughts  I’d ever known, I’m lucky to be alive because the thoughts we so powerful.  If you read the inserts or studies published by the NIH, it is capable of producing suicidal ideation and I’m here to tell you this is a real side effect of this drug. 

Again, I know this is just my experience and your pain and sleep will be your deciding factors and I appreciate your methodical approach to this situation so whatever you decide to do we’ll support.  We know you have few choices with all of them less than ideal so let us know how we can help. 

 

[[Bo...]]

Thank you for your insight. I do not disagree with much of what you have said. Hopefully I can find someone here that has a greater understanding of differences in the mechanism of action between the two, even if only for my greater understanding of the  issues. Thank you.

[[PE...]]

3 hours ago, [[B...] said:

Thank you for your insight. I do not disagree with much of what you have said. Hopefully I can find someone here that has a greater understanding of differences in the mechanism of action between the two, even if only for my greater understanding of the  issues. Thank you.

Hi. I been withdrawaling from both standard benzos and z drugs and it was the same thing.

But I was on zopiclone for years without any problem.. dosed every night 15mg.