Need help to know what scale to use

[[El...]]

 

Yes @[Co...] the medication is regular pills (although they are coated with something so harder to crush and disolve.)

Ill weigh the pills tomorrow and put this down here to let you know how much they weigh (done the calibration already) and since there's two different kind of pills (one larger than the other) I'll weigh both of them. I have a lot of these, in both kinds and they are 50mg pills and as far as I know I've been taking 2.8 mg (or rather 2.8ml=2.8mg out of the liquid I make) but I don't think I'm taking the same dose everytime due to the complete inconsistency of the liquid dilution. 

That's as much as I can summarise tonight, really bad side effects today. I'll weigh both tomorrow and tell their weight separately on another reply. Thank you so much for your help 🙏🙏

Have a great evening and bless you. 

 

 

 

[[VI...]]

On 19/12/2023 at 10:57, [[E...] said:

Hi @[Li...] yes I've read this before and sadly there was nothing I could do about it. Like I said : no doctor understands the need for an instant release medication in France and they dont even make them lower dosage than 50 (I had 25mg pills in the UK)

So as much as I was troubled by it, there was nothing to do... 

I have been used probably when I was taking the 25mg to the XR effect but it's long gone I believe because I've been cutting the pills for over a year. 

But thank you for all the research! And to @[VI...] as well. I appreciate all the info I can get, although I am well aware that it is far more complex than "chuck into water and stir and that's all" but like I said: I had no other choice, no resources (before getting onto this forum) no help from anyone knowledgeable about not just chemistry but who understands that medication is a big issue and who has that knowledge to share with me to support the taper I still bravely go through despite the fact that no, I didn't have the knowledge to make it work and felt shit about it. So it'd be appreciated if these facts were acknowledged rather than just throwing info I already knew I hadn't and it's time I'll never get to go back to anyway. So moving on and finding a good solution now

But thank you regardless for the research and help. 💕

Look, I think you got the wrong idea. I'm not trying to discourage or spit in your face or anything. A 45 second google search showed me info about your drug. Like I said, seroquel isn't something I'm too terribly familiar with, although, I know a little about it. All I was saying in short summary was: research what solubility works with what your drug is because just acting on whims is what we do by nature, but is not the way to get the job done. I'm in the same boat as you. not with seroquel, but alprazolam. I've tried the pill cutting and 'guessing' on size as I liked to call it (doesn't work with this specific med in my experience)... ive tried weighing powder (works decent imo)... I made a PG solution (highly soluble for alprazolam). 1ml/mg to help me with dose reductions. The liquid method is what is seeming to work best for me as far as accuracy, however, everyone's MMV. You don't need a magnetic stirrer & fancy lab equipment to get the job done necessarily either. 

 

To sum it up. Research, take the advice, compile it, make your own decision, and listen to your body like you did at first. you could tell right away the water method wasn't cutting it because of how you felt. You'll be fine. you'll come out the other side. Colin is giving you wonderful advice & you got plenty of encouragement. 

good luck, happy holidays.

 

[[or...]]

On 11/12/2023 at 07:00, [[C...] said:

Hello @[El...]. Welcome to BenzoBuddies.

Other members are probably better at directing you to specific products. But as it happens, there has been quite a lot of discussion at BB about scales of late. I would advocate for using inexpensive scales.

Rather than me repeating myself, and so that you read the comments from others, I will instead link to the relevant threads:

I made several posts to this thread; my first post is here:

Several posts to this thread:

And this post of mine includes some comments (from some who operates his own lab as part of his business) about what type of scales might be suitable:

I'm sure others too will be along to comment here.

I still can't believe how easy it's been for me to taper as I have such a bad tremor I just felt trying to weigh my little tablet of Clonazepam would be impossible, not to mention shaving it with a razor blade   My scale cost 17.00, or at least under 20 as I recall 8 months ago when I got to BB.  Most of the tapers were just too complicated for my benzo brain (on it for 35 years).

Long story short, found a little video of a guy that dry tapered, cutting his tablet each day, a very small percent, under 5%, and it took him about a year.  I learned here on BB much more about listening to my body, being sure I felt stable on each new taper, before tapering again.  I have had wd sxs but so mild they truly have not interrupted me in living my life during my taper.  All that because of BB and I'm into my taper 8-9 months now. 

I won't hesitate to taper less, or hold longer if need be either because my goal is to be done with the benzo, but not have to suffer, and wait to get my life back, I have it back now, and it keeps getting better, although like others before me, I have Windows and Waves, but those Windows feel better than I've felt in years, and I'm 71 this months

[[El...]]

8 hours ago, [[o...] said:

I still can't believe how easy it's been for me to taper as I have such a bad tremor I just felt trying to weigh my little tablet of Clonazepam would be impossible, not to mention shaving it with a razor blade   My scale cost 17.00, or at least under 20 as I recall 8 months ago when I got to BB.  Most of the tapers were just too complicated for my benzo brain (on it for 35 years).

Long story short, found a little video of a guy that dry tapered, cutting his tablet each day, a very small percent, under 5%, and it took him about a year.  I learned here on BB much more about listening to my body, being sure I felt stable on each new taper, before tapering again.  I have had wd sxs but so mild they truly have not interrupted me in living my life during my taper.  All that because of BB and I'm into my taper 8-9 months now. 

I won't hesitate to taper less, or hold longer if need be either because my goal is to be done with the benzo, but not have to suffer, and wait to get my life back, I have it back now, and it keeps getting better, although like others before me, I have Windows and Waves, but those Windows feel better than I've felt in years, and I'm 71 this months

Hey @[or...]

Thank you so much for your uplifting message! I'll respond more later I have to try and figure this taper out right now, the side effects are getting way too much to handle. 

[[El...]]

Hello @[Co...]

Ive weighed the two different kinds of tablets I've got and I've tested with two different identical pills to see whether the weight would stay consistent. It's more or less consistent. 

I've attached photos of the pills / weight but I will write down too:

- Round white seroquel 50mg XR : 0.133/0.131 (varies slightly) 

- Oblong brown seroquel 50mg XR:

0.520/0.521 (also varies slightly) 

 

[[El...]]

10 hours ago, [[V...] said:

Look, I think you got the wrong idea. I'm not trying to discourage or spit in your face or anything. A 45 second google search showed me info about your drug. Like I said, seroquel isn't something I'm too terribly familiar with, although, I know a little about it. All I was saying in short summary was: research what solubility works with what your drug is because just acting on whims is what we do by nature, but is not the way to get the job done. I'm in the same boat as you. not with seroquel, but alprazolam. I've tried the pill cutting and 'guessing' on size as I liked to call it (doesn't work with this specific med in my experience)... ive tried weighing powder (works decent imo)... I made a PG solution (highly soluble for alprazolam). 1ml/mg to help me with dose reductions. The liquid method is what is seeming to work best for me as far as accuracy, however, everyone's MMV. You don't need a magnetic stirrer & fancy lab equipment to get the job done necessarily either. 

To sum it up. Research, take the advice, compile it, make your own decision, and listen to your body like you did at first. you could tell right away the water method wasn't cutting it because of how you felt. You'll be fine. you'll come out the other side. Colin is giving you wonderful advice & you got plenty of encouragement. 

good luck, happy holidays.

Thanks. Yes, I really do appreciate all the wonderful advice. And happy holidays to you too. Hope we all come out on the other side of this. 

🎄 Merry Christmas

[[or...]]

55 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

Hey @[or...]

Thank you so much for your uplifting message! I'll respond more later I have to try and figure this taper out right now, the side effects are getting way too much to handle. 

Thank you @[El...] I felt like I had rambled so it was so nice to know it helped in some way. Now you're message uplifted me this a.m., oregonlady

 

 

[[Co...]]

Hi @[El...].

So that we are no misunderstandings, what dose of Seroquel do you take each day? Please explain your procedure, with steps.

Which of the two pills do you wish to use? How well do the coatings grind up? Which is better for making a powder?

Are you intending to continue to make a liquid? Because, as you yourself have noted, Seroquel XR is not suited to making a liquid using water.

[[El...]]

1 hour ago, [[C...] said:

Hi @[El...].

So that we are no misunderstandings, what dose of Seroquel do you take each day? Please explain your procedure, with steps.

Which of the two pills do you wish to use? How well do the coatings grind up? Which is better for making a powder?

Are you intending to continue to make a liquid? Because, as you yourself have noted, Seroquel XR is not suited to making a liquid using water.

Hi. 

So I take 2.8 (I tried 2.7mg the last two nights because the less liquid I have in my solution the more potent it feels, so no, if possible I don't wish to continue with liquid form)

Every night I'd take with a syringe 2.8ml out of the liquid solution I made by grinding down a pill (lately the brown one because the white didn't seem to disolve anymore at all) I'd grind it down and add 50ml to make it a 1ml/1mg solution.

The small round ones are easier because they seem to have less of a coating to them, it's less... Plastery and easier to grind. 

So : preferably I'd be able to use both (to avoid having to rely on one specific make of medication but for now I'd say the white pill is easier to manage, to grind)

And no if possible I'd rather stick to dry cuts. No more liquid to mess with my head. 

Hope that answers your questions

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by [El...]

[[El...]]

1 hour ago, [[o...] said:

Thank you @[El...] I felt like I had rambled so it was so nice to know it helped in some way. Now you're message uplifted me this a.m., oregonlady

Hey. No not at all. It's really nice to know you were able to find a way to taper and do it at your pace but also that it doesn't get in the way of you having your life. I really feel that is missing for me at the moment, every day feels like a struggle because my taper system had been a mess and I only now really reached out for assistance. So it's great for me to know that even after all this time on medication you're able to feel OK with your taper with the right kind that suits you. It's a lot of hope for me. I've been on several different meds for over 10 years and my nervous system is really drained but it's great to know you're able to get towards no more medication after 35 years. Well done, that's very impressive and brave 👏🤟

[[or...]]

8 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

Hey. No not at all. It's really nice to know you were able to find a way to taper and do it at your pace but also that it doesn't get in the way of you having your life. I really feel that is missing for me at the moment, every day feels like a struggle because my taper system had been a mess and I only now really reached out for assistance. So it's great for me to know that even after all this time on medication you're able to feel OK with your taper with the right kind that suits you. It's a lot of hope for me. I've been on several different meds for over 10 years and my nervous system is really drained but it's great to know you're able to get towards no more medication after 35 years. Well done, that's very impressive and brave 👏🤟

You should see the mess I made of trying to figure out "numbers"   I feel so grateful for those that kept trying to help me figure out percents, milligrams, whatever had to do with the numbers.  Oh boy, I'm smiling here and remembering but they stuck with me, and one day it just dawned on me. Then I bought like 4 scales before I ended up settling on the cheapest one of all!  I just seemed to have faith it would work for me and it has.

I haven't read your whole thread, but also, I was only ever dealing with one tablet, but I know you can figure what is best for you. Take whatever time you can just to rest.  I know lots of folks are still doing jobs, have families, and I don't know how they juggle everything, but you are going to make it because you are asking the questions, sharing in a good place, so glad you are here, oregonlady

[[or...]]

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

Hello @[Co...]

Ive weighed the two different kinds of tablets I've got and I've tested with two different identical pills to see whether the weight would stay consistent. It's more or less consistent. 

I've attached photos of the pills / weight but I will write down too:

- Round white seroquel 50mg XR : 0.133/0.131 (varies slightly) 

- Oblong brown seroquel 50mg XR:

0.520/0.521 (also varies slightly) 

Not sure this will help, I still have to keep things really simple, but I was taught to take 10 tablets of my C and weigh them, then divide that number by 10 to get an average weight, and that's what I used to begin my taper.

I've also been taught that no scale, even a pharmacist-type can be 100% accurate.  I believe that easily because not every one of my C pills weighs the same.  With my scale, even with calibrating it, it can still wander off by .1 or 2 either way.  One time I could not figure out why it was going crazy on me, and there was a small fan still on clear in my bedroom.  I turned it off and voila!  Sometimes I tried holding my breath as the least little thing could throw it off.

So now, if it's off, I wait probably as long as a minute for it to settle, oregonlady

PS I forgot the different brand names too, can weigh a lot different.  Like my brand of the C is called TEVA, but there are others, and there was some confusion in my learning about the numbers with that issue

[[Co...]]

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

Hi. 

So I take 2.8 (I tried 2.7mg the last two nights because the less liquid I have in my solution the more potent it feels, so no, if possible I don't wish to continue with liquid form)

I think this is sensible. Especially for Seroquel XR.

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

Every night I'd take with a syringe 2.8ml out of the liquid solution I made by grinding down a pill (lately the brown one because the white didn't seem to disolve anymore at all) I'd grind it down and add 50ml to make it a 1ml/1mg solution.

Is this dose of 2.8ml taken from 50ml of liquid made using one whole 50mg Seroquel XR pill?

Is this all you take of Seroquel each day? This is a very small dose.

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

The small round ones are easier because they seem to have less of a coating to them, it's less... Plastery and easier to grind.

Given this, I suggest that you use the small round pills.

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

So : preferably I'd be able to use both (to avoid having to rely on one specific make of medication but for now I'd say the white pill is easier to manage, to grind)

We are aiming for consistency, so anything which detracts from this should be avoided. I suggest that you keep it as simple as possible, using a single type of pill.

3 hours ago, [[E...] said:

And no if possible I'd rather stick to dry cuts. No more liquid to mess with my head. 

Hope that answers your questions

Yes, dry cuts (using a balance) are generally more reliable than liquids. But this is especially true with Seroquel XR because the powder from the ground pill clumps in water.

Assuming that you will be using the small round 50mg tablets:

• You previously reported that these tablets weigh 0.131-0.132g each. That's 131-133mg. I think we should assume each pill weighs 0.132g (we will use g(rams) instead of mgs from now on).
• If my opening comments to this post are correct (2.8ml from 50ml, using 50mg Seroquel XR tablets), this equates to:
• (2.8/50)*0.132g = 0.07392g.
• We will round this to 0.007g.

If this is your total daily dose (it is a very small dose), for how long do you intend to taper off this? You might, for example, cut your dose by 0.001mg every two days, so that you will finish your taper in 14 days:

Start: 0.007mg
Step 1: 0.006mg
Step 2: 0.005mg
Step 3: 0.004mg
Step 4: 0.003mg
Step 5: 0.002mg
Step 6: 0.001mg
Step 7: 0mg

But you should be aware, because you have been using an unreliable liquid - you might notice a large change in the dose delivered. Do you keep your liquid over multiple days, taking a little from the same batch over several/many days?

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by [Co...]
Edit: I updated the numbers to reflect usage of the small round white pill (I had mistakenly used the weight of the larger, brown pill).

[[El...]]

Thank you so much for this, just as a correction : the white round one is about 0.133/0.131 (the brown one is heavier 0.520mg and more coated. Sorry I know it's confusing there's two different ones)

Yes I took 2.8ml out of the solution, I'm aware it's a very small dose but it feels like a hammer on me still, whenever I take another dose and it feels like it's stronger one dose to the next (unreliable liquid...)

I keep the liquid over about 2 weeks. In the fridge after it seems sort of diluted. So yeah, it'll be difficult to adjust but right now as it is... it's a real pain to just exist, so I take these odds.
For how long I intend to taper, honestly it's a matter of whether I can tolerate the tapering better if the dose is steadier. 
I'd say I can try make it over a month or two but right now it just feels like I'm really not stable with that liquid so I'd like to be able to find some stability before i cut down more and stop it. 
But that'd be idea yeah to be able to taper in about a month. I know it seems like such a small dose (especially since I started taking it 25mg, but it still has such an impact, as if my brain/body feels the same damage, whether it's 25 or 1.8mg. I don't know if that's only me... I suppose not)
Also I just thought that maybe the "hammer" effect on my body is BECAUSE it's never steady, so I'm never able to really adjust to one dose or another and that's why it's been wreaking havoc on my NS for all this past year?

Edited December 21, 2023 by [El...]

[[El...]]

@[Co...] Just tried the calculation with the smaller ones and it seems like such a small weight, I don't know whether it'll be accurate: If the white round pill's weight is rounded (to 0.13)

(2.8/50)*0.13 = 0.00728 

Seems like a stretch to rely on the scales to be that accurate :/

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[E...] said:

Thank you so much for this, just as a correction : the white round one is about 0.133/0.131 (the brown one is heavier 0.520mg and more coated. Sorry I know it's confusing there's two different ones)

Thanks. Corrected.

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[E...] said:

@[Co...] Just tried the calculation with the smaller ones and it seems like such a small weight, I don't know whether it'll be accurate: If the white round pill's weight is rounded (to 0.13)

(2.8/50)*0.13 = 0.00728 

Seems like a stretch to rely on the scales to be that accurate :/

Yes. It is at the limit for accuracy. I originally did not quite grasp that you are on such a small dose (about 5.6mg of the active ingredient). The complication here is that we cannot be sure of the actual dose delivered to you thus far because your home-prepared liquid is unreliable. If the liquid is becoming more concentrated (as you suspect), even if you are apparently reducing your dose, in reality your dose might be going up as the amount of liquid in your container diminishes.

You have a couple of options here. You could assume that your liquid preparation thus far has delivered a fairly accurate dose and just use the method I outlined above (I've updated the numbers to correct for the white tablet weight). Or, you could start at a dose higher than this 'to be on the safe side'. Either way, you would adjust your dose according to how you feel (if you should feel under- or over-dosed).

It is also important to understand that breaking up your Seroquel XR tablets to make a powder (or liquid) results in the tablet no longer working as eXtended Release. If this is an issue for you, it might help to subdivide your daily dose into two or more smaller doses across the day. But since you are on such a small dose already, this will not be practical for long (as your dose diminishes further).

Having said all this, given that your dose is already very low - with the caveat that you cannot be sure of the dose actually delivered to you via your home-prepared liquid - perhaps you need to get on and just finish this. In your shoes, I think I would take the calculated equivalent dose using the balance and see how I react. And then take it from there.

I should also make clear, I've never taken an antidepressant. I just know that they share many of the same problems as benzodiazepines when it comes to managing a taper. And yours is particularly tricky pill to titrate if making a liquid. Irrespective, I think you are doing the right thing by switching to a dry cutting method. If you feel that dose is not correct, adjust it. And be assured that at least going forward, you can now be more confident of the dose being delivered.

And do not be concerned about the limits of what you can measure with your balance. You are on a low dose, so the Seroquel is not having much effect anyway.

[[El...]]

3 hours ago, [[C...] said:

• (2.8/50)*0.132g = 0.07392g.
• We will round this to 0.007g.

hey again @[Co...]

I've been reducing the 50mg round white pill but when trying to calculate the amount of 0.007 on the scales it's way too little and the scales don't register the powder. 

The only other way I can see of making this method work is to try with the other pill, which is larger, so the one that you used as first calculation. 
I think it was :

(2.8/50)*0.521 = 0.029176

So it was?: 0.029 to round up? Hopefully if I crush that other one it'll be easier to weigh and to calculate. 
It's really a pain and driving discord in my relationship at the moment, I'm so tired of trying to figure this out...

I want it gone but everytime I tried to completely stop it I felt like I was losing my mind, I couldn't sleep, my skin felt on fire or in such an itch it felt unbearable. So i can't stop cold turkey, even on such a small amount.

Could you confirm to me that this : 0.029 (of the brown tablet that weighed 0.521) would be sort of an equivalent of my current dose, so I can try that tonight and for a few nights to see how I feel and if it's too much, then step down? 
Thank you so much, I know it's late, I really am lost with all this, I want to make sure I (and my partner) understand this fully. 
And bless you for all your help.

[[Co...]]

13 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

I've been reducing the 50mg round white pill but when trying to calculate the amount of 0.007 on the scales it's way too little and the scales don't register the powder. 

Cheap balances often have problems when you get close to zero. Instead, place the powder in a small plastic dish of some kind (something light), and use the 'tare' function.

[[Co...]]

17 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

So it was?: 0.029 to round up? Hopefully if I crush that other one it'll be easier to weigh and to calculate. 

With brown pill - yes it was. But you will run into the same problem when you get to a lower weight. But look at my comment above this.

I have to log off for the evening. I'll be here tomorrow at some stage, but my time is now very limited until about the 27th, and even then, quite limited until after the New Year.

[[El...]]

4 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

With brown pill - yes it was. But you will run into the same problem when you get to a lower weight. But look at my comment above this.

I have to log off for the evening. I'll be here tomorrow at some stage, but my time is now very limited until about the 27th, and even then, quite limited until after the New Year.

I have tried to use a little bit of cardboard, it's very hard to get to that precise number.
For now I just want to have something to stabilize. I'll try this with the brown pill tonight, see if I can get that amount and repeat for a few nights, see if it stabilizes and when I feel up to it I'll get down again until it gets too difficult to calculate and that means I'll have to stop taking it altogether. 
Thank you for your help and I wish you happy holidays. 

[[Co...]]

11 hours ago, [[E...] said:

I have tried to use a little bit of cardboard, it's very hard to get to that precise number.
For now I just want to have something to stabilize. I'll try this with the brown pill tonight, see if I can get that amount and repeat for a few nights, see if it stabilizes and when I feel up to it I'll get down again until it gets too difficult to calculate and that means I'll have to stop taking it altogether. 
Thank you for your help and I wish you happy holidays. 

As I wrote begore, if you some kind of small plastic tray (perhaps a snap-on lid to something), this will add weight weight and you can then use the tare feature.

[[El...]]

2 hours ago, [[C...] said:

As I wrote begore, if you some kind of small plastic tray (perhaps a snap-on lid to something), this will add weight weight and you can then use the tare feature.

I used a tiny glass bottle to put a bit of weight and a card (as in playing card) as makeshift tray (I need supplies haha) in the end. The glass bottle made it easier to calculate I think.

Thanks again for all the advice. I feel odd but I feel a lot better today after my night sleep. Will see how I feel tomorrow taking the same amount. And then decrease very slowly and be done with it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by [El...]

[[or...]]

I know how I feel when the scale lands exactly on the right number.  I want to jump for joy but that will cause the scale to go off that number  I am a bit OCD, never been diagnosed, but I do act a lot like "Monk". Did you ever see that show?  Well anyway, my scale is getting me through but mostly, I'm lightening up on myself and not worrying if it is not perfect.  Even on my little cheap scale, it's almost always on the right number.  But mainly because I've done it so many times, every day for 8 or so months.  So you get into practice where exactly to cut (I use a razor blade, most accuracy for me I've found) each day.

I do have my tablets prescribed each month so every day I cut from a new tablet.  I know you have more than one tablet, but if they have their brand name, or a number on them it's easy to get the hang of it.  If the scale should read .100, and I get .102 or higher, I shave a teenie bit off.  It sound tedious I know, but after I got into the habit, it gets way easier.  @[Co...] suggestion is excellent and works for me.  I'll show you a similar scale as mine, although they don't sell this exact one.  I am doing way good after being on the benzo 35 years, and you can do this, just a longer process with more prescriptions to deal with I know.  We are here for you though, you're in the best place to be in my opinion oregonlady

Here's a similar scale, but any scale you choose should do you, just try to relax and keep practicing, it will become a routine PS you can see this one has a little tray that @colin talks about. My scale doesn't have USB rechargeable, just a little regular battery. EDIT oops, mine is like this but a jewelry scale, not black powder, but a powder type might be good.

 

[[El...]]

Thank you @[or...] 

I used to catch Monk sometimes on TV, always liked him

It seems to help me tons to stabilise what I've been doing the past few days, taking only the measured powder of 0.029mg. It's a bit tricky to get it to the exact right amount but it seems to work. Also not taking the Glue (the Coating) seems to make a huge difference too (the brown pill had such a thick coating it was like peeling off paper) 

Anyway. Thank you for your encouraging messages and I'm so glad I finally got some help and reached out here. Thank you loads @[Co...] for your advice 💕

Merry Christmas to y'all.

El.