Ambien taper

[[al...]]

Hi. I have been taking Ambien for sleep (sleeping problems/insomnia due to PTSD). I am currently taking it in 3 doses at night: 15 mg, 15 mg, 15 mg. Each dose provides me about 3 hours of sleep. Do You have any advice on how to go down now? Any piece of advice will be appreciated. Most doctors I visit to get help want a radical cut or detox, less radical ones want me to reduce the dose by 5 mg). I want to reduce the doses gradually in order to avoid brain injury/insomnia/polypharmacy. I am afraid of detox- in the detox centre they want to take me off Ambien when I enter and replace it with an equivalent dose of diazepam for couple of days, and subsequently with SSRIs, antipsychotics or pregabalin- if "needed". I would like to regain my normal physiological sleep but most psychiatrists doubt I will ever be able to sleep without pills [SSRIs/antipschotics/pregabalin].

[[Pa...]]

Hello @[al...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

Your Ambien dose resembles what I was taking, its miserable isn’t it?  3 hours was all I could get too, and the anxiety, inner trembling, fear and nausea plagued my days. 

Many of our members have tapered off of Ambien by doing 10% reductions, I didn’t do that, I quit cold turkey.  I couldn’t sleep for a few days, then when I could I experienced horrific slasher dreams but I started getting more and more each night after that and felt fully recovered soon after that.  

We do recommend tapering off of this class of medications, and Professor Ashton substituted her patients with diazepam but I’m not a fan of that because I feel diazepam being a true benzodiazepine can do more harm than a z-drug like Ambien.

We’ll be happy to support a slow taper which will hopefully allow you to recover your sleep as you reduce the drug but insomnia is likely to be your constant companion until you’re off of the drug and recovered from your use. But if you’re feeling anything like I did, the relief of getting off of the medication is worth the pain to do it.  

Please let us know how we can help you.

Pamster

[[or...]]

@[al...] of course you will be able to sleep without pills. I was on 10 mgs of Ambien (2  5mg pills), and I cut my pills into quarters, then took 1/4 (worked out to12.5% --too big) less every two weeks. It worked. I didn't have too many s/x . . .mainly headaches, malaise and dizziness.  Given that you are taking 3 equal doses every night, if it were me (just a suggestion here), I would maybe cut 5% off each dose so you reduce each one an equal amount. I would do it every 2 weeks . . . nice and slow. It would mean cutting up pills and eyeballing the cuts, but I think you could do it. Heck, I eyeballed my cuts and it worked out. Of course you won't sleep after the Ambien is gone from your system, but  I doubt you're sleeping well now. There are quite a few things you could try (OTC)to help you sleep . . . heaven knows I tried them all and some worked pretty well. The main thing is that sleep does return, without pills. It will take awhile (it did for me), but I am so darned glad I put up with the Ambien taper to get here. 

Can you talk to the doc who prescribes the Ambien for you and discuss a taper plan (devised by you!) with him/her? You'll need to be sure he/she is on board with your plan as you will still need him/her to prescribe for you. I got an NP to support my taper off benzos and Ambien -- she was very supportive.

Best to you.

[[al...]]

Than you Pamster! It was so brave of you to stop cold turkey! My days indeed look similar to yours- I guess that i go into withdrawal during the day. Thank you oregonkatz! the relationship with my provider is tense- she is supportive but it is her who wants me to go to the detox center. Today she proposed a taper: 15 mg, 12,5 mg and 10 mg. I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to have an equal dose- 12,5 mg, 12,5 mg and 12,5 mg.

Best regards to You!

[[Ma...]]

Hi @[al...],

I wish I could tell you how to taper Ambien. I took it for 4 years and big amounts of it in the end. The last weeks of taking it I hit such a bad tolerance and I had really bad withdrawal symptoms during the day and unfortunately ended in delirium and they cold turkeyed me in detox under pressure and I didn’t have no other option.

PLEASE PLEASE don‘t cold turkey!

I know, Ambien is not a benzo, but it acts on the same receptors like benzos do.

I tried a lot of different benzos in my past and for me - but that is just my personal experience - no benzo had such a strong effect like Ambien.

I wish you all the best!

[[An...]]

IHi @[al...]. Welcome to BB.

I have only taken Z-Drugs as one-offs. I have never taken them continually on a long-term basis.

Altho technically not benzodiazepines, they act in a very similar manner.

These drugs all have short half-lives so a gradual changeover to V might be a good strategy.

How long have you been on the ambien?

Do you take 15 mgs, sleep 3 hours, wake up, take another 15 mgs, sleep another 3 hours, and then another for 3 more hours of sleep? This has to be pretty frustrating and I bet your sleep quality is not that good.

Who prescribes the Ambien to you?

[[An...]]

PS - I would try to avoid the inpatient detox route if I were you. Altho medically safe (questionable IMO), they take patients off much too fast. You are far more likely to have a successful long-term outcome if you DIY at your own pace. I say they are safe because trained medical staff monitors your vitals and gives you meds to prevent seizures.

[[Id...]]

4 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

gives you meds to prevent seizures.

I had them even if I was on anti epileptic meds and medical staff didn’t help at all, the contrary. They didn’t know what to do and became scared and hostile (last part is really hard to believe I know, but I know how medical staff and a hospital should work). I wasn’t in any strange place but in one that was compared to a public hospital to receive public founds. Not to scare anyone, of course, but not to hide things either.

[[Ma...]]

45 minutes ago, [[I...] said:

I had them even if I was on anti epileptic meds and medical staff didn’t help at all, the contrary. They didn’t know what to do and became scared and hostile (last part is really hard to believe I know, but I know how medical staff and a hospital should work). I wasn’t in any strange place but in one that was compared to a public hospital to receive public founds. Not to scare anyone, of course, but not to hide things either.

I made the same experience. First night they CTd all psych meds and they even didn’t give me anti epileptic meds, so one seizure after another. NO monitoring. The worst thing was, I was alone in a dark room. I was not allowed to turn on the light. They didn’t allow me to come out of the room to go to the toilet. So I was laying all night in the bed full of urine from the seizures and panic. I was so scared and opened the door just to ask if somebody can help me. The „nurse“ was sleeping and when she woke up she began screaming at me and threw (really!!) me back in the bed. Then she closed the door and nobody came to check for hours! No cameras, no monitoring, nothing! I don’t know how I survived this, but I’m traumatized from this for the rest of my life. I heard a lot of similar stories from others in Germany. Germany is lost!  

Hopefully detox centers in America are better. 

Better stay at home and do a slow taper, if there is no good detox center (just my opinion).

Cold turkey ruined my life. Since 1 year I‘m a malnourished 35 year old 24/7 nursing case, bedridden, not functioning, not able to wash myself and still have unbearable symptoms. And the symptoms are getting worse and worse. I’m not able to walk anymore and use a wheelchair. In my case I have no hope anymore. I just want to die. 

Same like @[Id...] I also don’t want to scare anybody, but I need to write this to protect others from cold turkeys or rapid tapers and to check and speak first with the doctors from detox centers what’s their plan. 
 

I wish you all the best and I want to protect you from the hell @[Id...] and me were going through.

[[Id...]]

32 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

speak first with the doctors from detox centers what’s their plan. 

I did! They even written I was well oriented and cooperative in giving information. We agreed on not use a sleep aid that gave me really serious health problems. Days after I “escaped” I found out they gave it to me.

on this note I found out that if you search most specialized hospital center in my country (EU) using the name of the center… first result is a site that offers “help” and is part of Scientology 

Edited December 8, 2023 by [Id...]

[[or...]]

@[al...]  so many buddies on here went to detox and regretted it.  I think you can taper off Ambien at home . . . maybe you can "bargain" with your doc to let you taper down to 12.5mgs x 3 as you propose. Even doses seem reasonable to me. And the total reduction % should be okay -- it's very low. Can you ask her about that? Uneven doses seem not logical . . . what's her reasoning? But I would push back very hard against going to detox. You could find a new doc if she continues to give you grief . . . but you're on a very high dosage of Ambien and I wonder if anyone else would prescribe it. I hope you can come to a meeting of the minds with your doc . . . and that she will let you taper YOUR way. Good luck.

[[An...]]

2 hours ago, [[M...] said:

I made the same experience. First night they CTd all psych meds and they even didn’t give me anti epileptic meds, so one seizure after another. NO monitoring. The worst thing was, I was alone in a dark room. I was not allowed to turn on the light. They didn’t allow me to come out of the room to go to the toilet. So I was laying all night in the bed full of urine from the seizures and panic. I was so scared and opened the door just to ask if somebody can help me. The „nurse“ was sleeping and when she woke up she began screaming at me and threw (really!!) me back in the bed. Then she closed the door and nobody came to check for hours! No cameras, no monitoring, nothing! I don’t know how I survived this, but I’m traumatized from this for the rest of my life. I heard a lot of similar stories from others in Germany. Germany is lost!  

Hopefully detox centers in America are better. 

Better stay at home and do a slow taper, if there is no good detox center (just my opinion).

Cold turkey ruined my life. Since 1 year I‘m a malnourished 35 year old 24/7 nursing case, bedridden, not functioning, not able to wash myself and still have unbearable symptoms. And the symptoms are getting worse and worse. I’m not able to walk anymore and use a wheelchair. In my case I have no hope anymore. I just want to die. 

Same like @[Id...] I also don’t want to scare anybody, but I need to write this to protect others from cold turkeys or rapid tapers and to check and speak first with the doctors from detox centers what’s their plan. 
 

I wish you all the best and I want to protect you from the hell @[Id...] and me were going through.

Wow, I am so sorry this happened to you.....sounds horrific. I agree.....these hospitals are best avoided.

[[An...]]

3 hours ago, [[I...] said:

I had them even if I was on anti epileptic meds and medical staff didn’t help at all, the contrary. They didn’t know what to do and became scared and hostile (last part is really hard to believe I know, but I know how medical staff and a hospital should work). I wasn’t in any strange place but in one that was compared to a public hospital to receive public founds. Not to scare anyone, of course, but not to hide things either.

Thanks for sharing @[Id...]. I am so sorry to hear what happened to you. I had a horrible experience too but not as bad as yours. I did think I was going to die, however. They forced me to take meds I did not want to take ( that made me a lot worse) by threatening to send me to a state mental hospital if I did not comply. I was really traumatized by the whole experience. I hope @[al...] decides not to go this route.

[[Id...]]

On 08/12/2023 at 02:25, [[a...] said:

Hi. I have been taking Ambien for sleep (sleeping problems/insomnia due to PTSD)

Welcome @[al...],

I can relate to this.

10 hours ago, [[a...] said:

I guess that i go into withdrawal during the day

On benzoinfo is suggested that if you taper from your original “benzodiazepine” to spread the dose evenly 4/5 times a day, if it something you want to try now or if intra dose withdraw becomes too much.

 I wish well 

[[Pa...]]

12 hours ago, [[I...] said:

On benzoinfo is suggested that if you taper from your original “benzodiazepine” to spread the dose evenly 4/5 times a day, if it something you want to try now or if intra dose withdraw becomes too much.

The problem with this is Ambien is a hypnotic and it can produce amnesia so taking it during the day can be dangerous in terms of driving and interacting with people.  I know this because I did it and was left with huge chunks missing from my memory during the day. 

[[Id...]]

@[Pa...], thank you for correcting me, unfortunately I know too well about ambien, so much that I overlooked something so obvious to worry about intra dose wd.

And thank you for guarding over us

@[al...], sorry I overlooked something so important, Pamster is right, so if you’ll find yourself in the necessity to lower intra dose you’ll have to take it in account and ideally find in a safe situation to prevent any problem.

 

Edit to add just a consideration, unfortunately not useful for who opened this post but personal experience that might add to general knowledge about the topic. I was prescribed alternatively Ambien and a benzodiazepine slightly worse of lorazepam in terms of diazepam equivalence (lormetazepam in liquid alcoholic form, so “powerful” that it is said is illegal worldwide except for a country, maybe two) for two decades, not continuously as the only solution for lifelong huge difficulties in falling asleep. I know the big difference between the two in Ashton tablets and others similar, the proper benzo is considered twenty times less in terms of diazepam comparison (if my brain still work)… but… in terms of effectiveness for help falling asleep, amnesia, and general “dangers” about interacting with people after taking it (can’t speak about doing things that require attention because I strictly avoid it but I can perfectly imagine) I can really say that I have never experienced a real difference. If something the benzodiazepine, probably because of fast acting liquid form was quicker to show its effects. Even in terms of wd casually (?) I was on the benzo when I started to show problems. I know this isn’t scientific.

As I said just a consideration, that might or not add to general knowledge but surely will puzzle me really well with what I thought I had understood (sorry for grammar)

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by [Id...]

[[al...]]

Thank You All for your advice and sharing your experiences. I am doing my best do avoid detox- as far as I know slow taper is not possible there. I hope I will be able to find a doctor who will support my taper plan.

[[al...]]

@oregonkatz I think there is no rationale behind the unequal doses; in my opinion the doses should be equal so that the brain adjusts to them. I know my doses are high but I guess that if everything works well I'll be able to quit the drug within 3 months.

[[or...]]

@[al...] I agree with you that the doses should be equal. And I think that with or without your doc's "help" you can make them equal. My NP wanted me to reduce by amounts that were unequal and too big (my benzo taper) but I dug in my heels and eventually she let me do what I thought best. She said "as long as the general direction is down" I could manage my own taper. A note of caution: I know you want off this drug, but putting a deadline of  3 months on your taper seems like it could be self-defeating. Why not start tapering and just see how things go? It took me 6 months to get off my measly 10 mgs of Ambien but I felt pretty good doing cut, hold for 2 weeks, then cut again. You might need to take a break from reducing and hold for, say, a few weeks if you get feeling "in the weeds". Just be kind to yourself, @[al...]. Best to you.

[[al...]]

Thank You so much oregonkatz! I wrote 3 months because all my prescribers pressure me into quitting this drug as fast as possible. But you are so right- I should not put such a pressure on me. I need to learn how to be my own advocate which is hard. 

[[al...]]

On 08/12/2023 at 19:31, [[A...] said:

IHi @[al...]. Welcome to BB.

I have only taken Z-Drugs as one-offs. I have never taken them continually on a long-term basis.

Altho technically not benzodiazepines, they act in a very similar manner.

These drugs all have short half-lives so a gradual changeover to V might be a good strategy.

How long have you been on the ambien?

Do you take 15 mgs, sleep 3 hours, wake up, take another 15 mgs, sleep another 3 hours, and then another for 3 more hours of sleep? This has to be pretty frustrating and I bet your sleep quality is not that good.

Who prescribes the Ambien to you?

Yes, I take 15 mg three times a night, and I always get 2-3 hours of sleep afterwards. Ambien might be at fault for this sleep pattern but I also have PTSD and panic disorder and Ambien use was secondary to that.

[[al...]]

On 08/12/2023 at 03:37, [[P...] said:

Hello @[al...], welcome to BenzoBuddies,

Your Ambien dose resembles what I was taking, its miserable isn’t it?  3 hours was all I could get too, and the anxiety, inner trembling, fear and nausea plagued my days. 

Many of our members have tapered off of Ambien by doing 10% reductions, I didn’t do that, I quit cold turkey.  I couldn’t sleep for a few days, then when I could I experienced horrific slasher dreams but I started getting more and more each night after that and felt fully recovered soon after that.  

We do recommend tapering off of this class of medications, and Professor Ashton substituted her patients with diazepam but I’m not a fan of that because I feel diazepam being a true benzodiazepine can do more harm than a z-drug like Ambien.

We’ll be happy to support a slow taper which will hopefully allow you to recover your sleep as you reduce the drug but insomnia is likely to be your constant companion until you’re off of the drug and recovered from your use. But if you’re feeling anything like I did, the relief of getting off of the medication is worth the pain to do it.  

Please let us know how we can help you.

Pamster

Thank you @[Pa...]

[[al...]]

On 10/12/2023 at 20:13, [[o...] said:

@[al...] I agree with you that the doses should be equal. And I think that with or without your doc's "help" you can make them equal. My NP wanted me to reduce by amounts that were unequal and too big (my benzo taper) but I dug in my heels and eventually she let me do what I thought best. She said "as long as the general direction is down" I could manage my own taper. A note of caution: I know you want off this drug, but putting a deadline of  3 months on your taper seems like it could be self-defeating. Why not start tapering and just see how things go? It took me 6 months to get off my measly 10 mgs of Ambien but I felt pretty good doing cut, hold for 2 weeks, then cut again. You might need to take a break from reducing and hold for, say, a few weeks if you get feeling "in the weeds". Just be kind to yourself, @[al...]. Best to you.

@oregonkatz I have a question- did You notice any improvement with the symptoms during the day when You were tapering Ambien or the days were awful until You stopped Ambien?

[[al...]]

On 08/12/2023 at 18:01, [[M...] said:

Hi @[al...],

I wish I could tell you how to taper Ambien. I took it for 4 years and big amounts of it in the end. The last weeks of taking it I hit such a bad tolerance and I had really bad withdrawal symptoms during the day and unfortunately ended in delirium and they cold turkeyed me in detox under pressure and I didn’t have no other option.

PLEASE PLEASE don‘t cold turkey!

I know, Ambien is not a benzo, but it acts on the same receptors like benzos do.

I tried a lot of different benzos in my past and for me - but that is just my personal experience - no benzo had such a strong effect like Ambien.

I wish you all the best!

Thank You Mausi. You definitely made me reconsider going cold turkey. I am from Poland and the hospital care in Poland is worse than the one in Germany. Or at least that's what I have thought because Your experience is a nightmare. How are doing these days? How are You feeling? Are You on Ambien or any benzo again? All I can say is that what happened to You is actually advised in the Ashton Manual- to me it is very frightening. They handle cases like ours the same I guess across Europe. I am very concerned about it and I wonder if this recommendation shouldn't be changed. I feel that going cold turkey from Ambien may indeed cause protracted withdrawal syndrome like in case of any benzo. I hope You are getting better and better every day.

[[La...]]

Hello alicija I wanted to chime in. I was once on Ambien as well. First the regular then the last year on Ambien CR over a period of 7 years total. I successfully tapered off of Ambien by first going back to the regular (10 mg). I allowed my brain to adjust to that for about 3 weeks then tapered SLOWLY off by cutting 1 mg every 2-3 weeks. As the others said, you want to avoid going to detox if possible because unfortunately they will put you on many other drugs resulting in you being polydrugged as well as going into tolerance on those and then you’ll have several tapers to get off. Although Ambien isn’t a “real” benzo it is definitely its cousin. It acts on the same receptors and have some of the same exact WD symptoms. 
Personally, I didn’t have trouble sleeping or coming off of it. I started a sleep routine as I tapered and it worked wonderfully for sleeping even to this day. I’m 43 months off ( tomorrow Yay!). My WD wasn’t easy but doable especially with this lovingly supportive forum. You should do yourself a favor when you start and have an acceptance mentality that your sleep may not be good for a little while. Under the circumstances, it is normal but as you see all of us survived! I want you to know that having fears about this is ok and common but you CAN do this! I’d hate to see you go down a horrible rabbit hole by going into detox when in essence they would be kind of cold turkeying you. I like Katz suggestion of chipping 5% to begin with to not give your brain such a shock. I had an understanding doctor who wasn’t vain to act like she knew what to do. I researched here ( Ashton manual) and she did the same. We got a plan and she monitored me very closely the whole way. Again Katz is right to get your doctor on board with a taper plan. I also taught my doctor and her medical students how to taper so someone else in my situation could be PROPERLY helped. I wish you all the best. Big hugs!