Requesting your thoughts on rate of taper

[[fe...]]

Hi buddies,

Some of you may be tracking to my posts about all the craziness that my husband has experienced since the summer (between inactive pills and issues with the compound). He resumed tapering as of 11/1. He is microtapering and current rate is approaching 10% on a monthly basis.

As of next month it will be a bit over 10%. He would be completing the taper in March if he can keep going. That means that he will be increasingly above 10% (up to 12%). What are your thoughts on that? Is it dangerous? How do you know when it becomes a risky decision? Should there be a break at any point?

I know there is no way to predict the future, but what are your thoughts?

Thank you all!

[[mi...]]

How has his symptoms been since the summer and how is he handling the micro tapering compared to before you started? Micro tapering can be deceitful because you don’t feel symptoms build up Until sometimes it’s too late. It’s not a bad idea to give yourself a break every once in a while. I’ve heard some people say to Microtaper five days and then hold two days and then go back to five again. Don’t do it every day. They reduce every three days. It’s just all different. Are you doing a different reduction every single day? if you’re doing 10 a month it is within the safe range that is recommended but that does not apply to everyone and the only way you’ll know is how he responds. I have never been able to handle big reductions and my fast would be somebody else. So it’s really about listening to his symptoms.

[[ou...]]

I haven't been tracking your posts to know how sensitive your husband is to withdrawal. I can only say that 12% per month is most definitely safe.

[[mi...]]

@[ou...] not for everyone. There are some who a 3% cut puts them in dire straights. For the average person that should work but people on this board are not average. I have never tolerated more than 6.5% per month over the last two years. 12% would likely kill me. Everyone has to find their own sweet spot. 10% per month is well within the guidelines but those don’t take into consideration sensitive cases. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by [mi...]

[[ou...]]

9 hours ago, [[m...] said:

12% would likely kill me.

Respectfully no. There's a difference between tolerable and safe.

[[fe...]]

On 27/11/2023 at 19:09, [[m...] said:

How has his symptoms been since the summer and how is he handling the micro tapering compared to before you started? Micro tapering can be deceitful because you don’t feel symptoms build up Until sometimes it’s too late. It’s not a bad idea to give yourself a break every once in a while. I’ve heard some people say to Microtaper five days and then hold two days and then go back to five again. Don’t do it every day. They reduce every three days. It’s just all different. Are you doing a different reduction every single day? if you’re doing 10 a month it is within the safe range that is recommended but that does not apply to everyone and the only way you’ll know is how he responds. I have never been able to handle big reductions and my fast would be somebody else. So it’s really about listening to his symptoms.

He is still experiencing symptoms during his taper. He is one of the unfortunate people that was experiencing interdose withdrawal and tolerance withdrawal before he started tapering. For context, he had been prescribed 4 mg klonopin and 2 mg xanax and he never took more than 1 mg in 15 years. The reason he ended up with valium added in the mix was because the attempt to transition to valium was near catastrophic.

He is using a compound that is 20ml:1mg to mimic valium potency. He takes the medication 4 times a day and removes 0.01 ml from each dose each day. He always has symptoms, which is why he is pushing through. Taking a break from tapering had been necessary because of how destabilized his nervous system had gotten after the medication fiasco. He had tried to restart in August but that did not work out, so he paused again until November. So far he's pushing through better than August, but I don't pretend to even suspect how this feels..

[[fe...]]

1 hour ago, [[o...] said:

Respectfully no. There's a difference between tolerable and safe.

I think I understand where you're coming from. I think that the struggle comes from when tolerable becomes intolerable... based on what I have seen and read, maybe the medication itself won't kill you per se, but watching my husband at times, it seems like it is killing you.

There are so many times that I read about people that what they feel, how terribly they experience this process blurs the line between what is safe and not, because few things are as dangerous to sound decision-making than hopelessness and helplessness.

I want to believe that people make it on the other side and those feelings become distant nightmares. Over time though I have come to recognize it as trauma. I'm trying to somehow spare him as much of this pain as possible, but at the same time I don't want my own fears for his safety to prolong his torment.

It's a terrible damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't...

I really appreciate everyone that tunes in and shares their thoughts. Maybe together we can find answers..

[[mi...]]

Not to get into an argument because that’s not my intent but when battling severe episodes of SI I think I’m a better judge over what will kill me than a stranger on the internet. I get near psychotic on 2.5% cuts. I am certain it wouldn’t end well for me if I went much higher. Either way, yes the drug reduction itself isn’t fatal but safety is a huge concern, balancing that with getting off a drug making me sicker. Damned if you do… it’s tough. I am only at .156mg K which many would think means near the end of the taper and for many it would be. For me though it’s several years. Maybe I cns will settle so I can speed up or maybe I can slowly push up my rate up. I’d love to get to 5% every two weeks. Then I’d be done in about 18-24 months. What a marathon. I was fine before I crashed this summer. Cuts didn’t make me sick. Now they do. Brutal. 

[[ou...]]

Don't get me wrong, I thought we were talking about literal safety. As in don't cut 50% because you can get seizures and actually die. I certainly don't dispute that reducing at what many people would consider a reasonable rate may be unbearable for some. I know what it feels like to think you will die or wishing that you did. Anyway, if he's able to tolerate 10% then 12% doesn't seem like a big difference. Also, is he reducing the K only and holding the V?

[[mi...]]

Yeah def rare to actually die from physical reaction. But yeah personal safety is an issue for some when they destabilize too much. 

[[fe...]]

16 hours ago, [[o...] said:

Don't get me wrong, I thought we were talking about literal safety. As in don't cut 50% because you can get seizures and actually die. I certainly don't dispute that reducing at what many people would consider a reasonable rate may be unbearable for some. I know what it feels like to think you will die or wishing that you did. Anyway, if he's able to tolerate 10% then 12% doesn't seem like a big difference. Also, is he reducing the K only and holding the V?

It is pretty terrible... but so too is doing nothing. It's not like he's having this stable ok time if he's not tapering. What little lack of tapering offsets (maybe), is completely negated by the distress over the lack of progress with the taper. It makes me think of that quote, "If you're going through hell... keep going."

In answer to your question, yes, he is holding the valium. At first I was hoping that the valium would somehow buffer the effects of the klonopin taper, but... much as I had heard that benzos are non-selective, I don't believe it is the case. Klonopin is one nasty molecule..

Anyway. It seems like tapering one at a time was the wisest strategy.

[[ou...]]

On 28/11/2023 at 00:07, [[f...] said:

As of next month it will be a bit over 10%. He would be completing the taper in March if he can keep going. That means that he will be increasingly above 10% (up to 12%).

On 29/11/2023 at 04:23, [[f...] said:

He is using a compound that is 20ml:1mg to mimic valium potency. He takes the medication 4 times a day and removes 0.01 ml from each dose each day.

Something doesn't add up. I'm assuming that when you say he would be completing the taper you mean only the K. If he's still on 7.5mg V then the rate would be approaching 30*0.04/7.54=16% What's his current dosage?