I need help. A to V cross

[[Hu...]]

My GP wasn't helpful at all in the beginning. But I've got all the A and V I need to cross for the first month.

However, I have a question for you all, hope you have some advice.

 

I'm having terrible interdose withdrawal after 2 years on A. Somehow I totally messed up my doses. 0.5A AM and 1.75A PM. So my brain thinks that during the day it is so uneven. There is no balance in the day and thus only, headaches, anxiety, crying and depression during the day. Once I take the 1.75A in the evening... after two hours I'm pretty stable again. Till next day when it all repeats. Pure hell.

I could updose in the form of 1.25 V during the day. I'm a bit afraid for V because in the past I once took 2mg and, it made my breathing very heavy, so I rather first try in the daytime how the V will affect me. I don't care about sedation, really. I've been taking A for two years now, and now also Mirt, so I'm already in Alice's Wonderland.

My original idea was to just cut 0.25A AM-dose and replace it with 2.5 V. But then there would be a gap for the first weeks till V builds up to full strength.

What would you do in my case? Any tips are welcome. 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by [Hu...]

[[Id...]]

Hi @[Hu...], proper help is on the way and it’s not me. Different situations but I wrote a similar post few hours ago

9 hours ago, [[H...] said:

I'm a bit afraid for V because in the past I once took 2mg and, it made my breathing very heavy

What I can tell you is that I have tried so many times to switch and I was stuck because the smallest dose was barely imaginable and seemed to ruin everything.
I clearly remember writing here probably ten days ago, after taking 0.5 V and, among other side effects, I was having “fire ants” ravaging my legs and feasting on my lips. I wasn’t in a place to stop so I went on in baby baby steps. Stopping if needed. I followed what I was able to do in every moment. It got better after that and in few days I was able to take a dose so much bigger without any bad effect in comparison. 
I’m not suggesting you to do anything because I am the last person here. Everybody is different but I wanted to share a real and recent scenario. I hope everything will improve for you

[[Hu...]]

3 hours ago, [[I...] said:

 

What I can tell you is that I have tried so many times to switch and I was stuck because the smallest dose was barely imaginable and seemed to ruin everything.
I clearly remember writing here probably ten days ago, after taking 0.5 V and, among other side effects, I was having “fire ants” ravaging my legs and feasting on my lips. I wasn’t in a place to stop so I went on in baby baby steps. Stopping if needed. I followed what I was able to do in every moment. It got better after that and in few days I was able to take a dose so much bigger without any bad effect in comparison. 

I've read your posts. You are in a tough position. I can also feel your pain, through the words you write. Last years have been hard on me as well. With a breakup, deaths in the family. 

So starting with crossing was the most difficult for you, and after that the other steps into V became easier for you? I can imagine that. It can cover the A withdrawal.

Hopefully some others will reply here as well. I would appreciate any insight.

[[Id...]]

I am sorry to hear about your understandable problems. Yes, tough, more or less than a lot of people. Comparing is useful to gain compassion, towards yourself and others, insights, feel more relaxed knowing that it isn’t that you are “going crazy” but there are really practical things goin on, learning about symptoms and being able to discern (especially important to keep anxiety at bay, even just the wd induced one). 
Keep in mind that every path is different, and people that are here are usually the ones that found bumps along the journey 

To answer your questions, no crossing wasn’t the most difficult but my story is borderline, don’t let this distract you . Yes, it was difficult and I gave up in my early tries. It became easier with help and resources I received on here, scrupulously following the precautions I already wrote, but I acted on instinct (patient induced pace) following what we know is better (medical indications). I am still trying to figure out. I can tell you that I am in “heaven” compared to bedridden and even worse in last years. Is my path right? I can’t know.

Again a heartfelt wish for your recovery 

Edited October 29, 2023 by [Id...]
Spelling as usual

[[Ko...]]

I switched from clonazepam to valium and it wasn' t bad. I did it over 4 weeks by switching out .125 of klonopin for 2.5 valium every 1-2 weeks. I went to the 10 mg valium equivalent that Ashton recommended. I was really nervous about it.

Maybe start with replacing one dosage at a time by replacing .25 lorazepam with 2.5 mg of valium every 1-2 weeks? 

[[Hu...]]

59 minutes ago, [[K...] said:

 

Maybe start with replacing one dosage at a time by replacing .25 lorazepam with 2.5 mg of Valium every 1-2 weeks? 

That was the original plan. I am going to try that tomorrow and see how it goes.

I will take the Valium 2.5 in the morning and then the 0.25 A in the afternoon.

And hopefully the withdrawals sx won't get any worse. Or I have to change plans.

I better not up my dose, only when I really can't do otherwise. The equivalent already is 22mg D

Surely I worry about that dose in diazepam, but then again I've read that people here have taken 40 up to even 60 or 90

Edited October 29, 2023 by [Hu...]

[[Ko...]]

It sounds like your daytime symptoms are pretty horrible so I think the valium will help with that aspect- it will make you more drowsy so though.

I took clonazepam 0.5 mg at night and now take 8.75 mg valium at night. Next week I will decrease by another .25mg. I am tapering slowly.

[[Hu...]]

2 hours ago, [[K...] said:

It sounds like your daytime symptoms are pretty horrible so I think the valium will help with that aspect- it will make you more drowsy so though.

I took clonazepam 0.5 mg at night and now take 8.75 mg valium at night. Next week I will decrease by another .25mg. I am tapering slowly.

Yes. I hope the IW will be minimal to none so I can also taper the Mirtazapine I use for the tension headaches I got from the Ativan IW. It is not doing anything for depression. I'm not that depressed. Only sad and crying due to the IW. But after I take the dose in the evening, I feel pretty stable mentally. It is the rollercoaster named Ativan that is making me feel sad. 

I will update this topic often, may I be of inspiration for others who hesitate. Because I sure did during the last weeks. In the end all will be well, it must be.

Edited October 29, 2023 by [Hu...]

[[Ko...]]

@[Hu...]Valium seems to help people with interdose withdrawl the most so I think it will be very helpful for you.  And then it comes in 2 and 5 mg increments so you can make decreases as low as .25 mg by quartering tablets. In the US there is also the liquid available.

I could not find a provider to help me taper 0.5 mg clonazepam slowly- my original doc told me to cut in half for 2 weeks then quarter for 2 weeks then stop. I developed horrible and scary withdrawal symptoms after a week and went back to my 0.5 mg dosage. Her only other suggestion if i couldn't do that was detox.  So I had to find another provider specifically for tapering and she was pretty insistent on my switch to valium.

[[Id...]]

Hi @[Hu...],

8 hours ago, [[H...] said:

I will update this topic often

It would be lovely to know how you are doing

Probably mine is a dumb question and forgive me if it is, but have you tried or considered to follow Ashton schedule? Maybe adapting it to your symptoms and pace?
 

On 28/10/2023 at 22:32, [[H...] said:

So my brain thinks that during the day it is so uneven

For example it is indicated to just break your current A dosage in 3 doses for the first week, to ease your IW, and then slowly but steadily switch that but guided in a really smart and gradual way. It shouldn’t give withdrawals for first 1/2 months. If ever. 

Fear of equivalent D I think is really common, I for sure have it. A lot

I don’t want to mud your waters especially because I am not a good example of right knowledge in this area, but it seems such a good start and is the same advice, of course if you can follow it, a really wise user gave me on here.

Have a good day or night 

[[Hu...]]

7 hours ago, [[K...] said:

@[Hu...]Valium seems to help people with interdose withdrawl the most so I think it will be very helpful for you.  And then it comes in 2 and 5 mg increments so you can make decreases as low as .25 mg by quartering tablets. In the US there is also the liquid available.

I could not find a provider to help me taper 0.5 mg clonazepam slowly- my original doc told me to cut in half for 2 weeks then quarter for 2 weeks then stop. I developed horrible and scary withdrawal symptoms after a week and went back to my 0.5 mg dosage. Her only other suggestion if i couldn't do that was detox.  So I had to find another provider specifically for tapering and she was pretty insistent on my switch to valium.

I've come across a lot of ignorant doctors as well during my treatment in a mental facility. One wanted to taper 1mg in like 4 weeks. "A quarter a week should be fine" she said. These people only know how to prescribe. I wanted to cross to V for a long time, told someone about the Ashton manual but was treated as a wisecrack. They wanted to keep me on Ativan. Most of these people had to take one or two tablets during their training to know the effect of a benzo, but they never used them as a patient, nor tapered off them. 

 

3 hours ago, [[I...] said:

Hi @[Hu...],

It would be lovely to know how you are doing

Probably mine is a dumb question and forgive me if it is, but have you tried or considered to follow Ashton schedule? Maybe adapting it to your symptoms and pace?
 

For example it is indicated to just break your current A dosage in 3 doses for the first week, to ease your IW, and then slowly but steadily switch that but guided in a really smart and gradual way. It shouldn’t give withdrawals for first 1/2 months. If ever. 

Fear of equivalent D I think is really common, I for sure have it. A lot

I don’t want to mud your waters especially because I am not a good example of right knowledge in this area, but it seems such a good start and is the same advice, of course if you can follow it, a really wise user gave me on here.

Have a good day or night 

Yes, I've read the manual.

I've always dosed 2 times a/day, and for a short while I only did once. 3 would have been better with Ativan I agree. Even when you taper from Ativan itself, you could diminish the 3 doses at the same time. Never thought of that. That's why I ended up with the extreme 0.5 / 1,75

Don't know if 3x0.75 is going to help if I've been doing 0.5 and 1.75 for a long time. The baseline shifted to 1.75Or I am completely wrong about that, and it doesn't matter. But i could try splitting into three first. It is all a big experiment. 

I'll try this first: 

 

09:00 - 0.75mg

17:00 - 0.75mg

23:00 - 0.75mg

I'll know pretty fast if this will feel better. If so, I'll swap 0.25A for 2.5 D  in one of the doses.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by [Hu...]

[[Id...]]

@[Hu...] I understand “doctors” … like being abandoned in a hospital bed for days unconscious or with seizures without being able to reach for water and having them showing up only to threaten to call military police on you to be locked up, to protect themselves legally and their income while your organs are shutting down  … in an hospital specialized in benzo problems in a well wealthy first world country… anyway I feel like a “thief” suggesting things to you because I came back to my capacity really few days ago. But there’s an excellent moderation team on here that can correct me. 
What I was talking about was this

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s8
 

Schedule 3 or 8 from A to D of course you need to do a total equivalence of everything in there, from the dose you are actually taking, choosing the schedule that is easier for you to convert from (or ask a friend versed in math or maybe on here; at the moment I am counting on my fingers I am not the right person). As I already wrote first week is just your dose but with theoretically lower or not interdose wd, and, as stated, ideally no wd just substitution for first 5 stages. 
I told you I am new to this maybe if you present this to your doctor he or she can be reassured and maybe, if needed, assist you if you need a slightly different dose to stabilize better in the beginning. 
 

5 hours ago, [[H...] said:

09:00 - 0.75mg

17:00 - 0.75mg

23:00 - 0.75mg

Again, not an expert but for too much real personal experience I absolutely wouldn’t trust A if not exactly divided every 8 hours. 
I have explored even the possibility you can find I don’t remember if on the manual or on benzoinfo to dose your primary molecule evenly 4/5 times a day without substitution and taper from there (because doctors have switched me repeatedly to the wrong benzo creating problems you can imagine, but now it seems I have tackled D). You could talk with your doctor about it.

Nothing I wrote is medical advice as you already know but because of professional deviation I need to write it, sorry

Edited October 30, 2023 by [Id...]
World

[[Hu...]]

41 minutes ago, [[I...] said:

@[Hu...] 

https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s8

Again, not an expert but for too much real personal experience I absolutely wouldn’t trust A if not exactly divided every 8 hours. 

The Ashton method assumes maximum of 3 equal doses. Since that is not the case with me the baseline is 1.75. I'm trying this 3 equal doses approach today, but I doubt it will work with such a short acting benzo ,like Ativan is. Will see, and if not, tomorrow the Valium it is. 

[[Id...]]

I’m sorry, probably my English is inadequate 

9 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

The Ashton method assumes maximum of 3 equal doses

This is why I was talking to do math to convert everything to the equivalent of your dose, but in the end the most important thing is for you to feel comfortable with what you are doing

 

[[Hu...]]

9 minutes ago, [[I...] said:

I’m sorry, probably my English is inadequate 

This is why I was talking to do math to convert everything to the equivalent of your dose, but in the end the most important thing is for you to feel comfortable with what you are doing

But I am doing that today 0.75x3=2,25 That is the same as 0.50+1.75=2,25 as I normally do.

Since the Ativan goes in so quickly and also leaves quickly, there is never a buildup that lasts long. That's why I don't think it will work. It would be terrific if it works. But I doubt it. 

You are an European like me right? Anyway, how are you doing?

Edited October 30, 2023 by [Hu...]

[[Id...]]

35 minutes ago, [[H...] said:

But I am doing that today 0.75x3=2,25 That is the same as 0.50+1.75=2,25 as I normally do.

Yes but then if you feel comfortable you can also switch to D following the schedule stages proportionally to your baseline dose. I am truly sorry but I have to excuse myself out of math to not create dangers; my benzo brain literally left me counting on fingers. Yes, I’m from EU, my native grammar, my explanations and verbal capacity, my math and my English were partly left in that hospital bed last year .I hope not for long , I’m improving, really slowly. 
I am bursting with joy, thanks: today was the first day I was able to something, (have a long due medical procedure unrelated to benzo) without big mishaps, without stuttering and (very) relatively easily. Thanks to the help I received on this site.
Sometimes it’s the little things 😂 Have a wonderful day

Edited October 30, 2023 by [Id...]

[[Pa...]]

It’s so good to see members helping each other, none of us are experts at this and since I didn’t taper, I appreciate the generosity you’re all displaying, thank you all for reaching out to others in need.