Valium Taper - Am I in Tolerance?

[[...]]

II began taking Valium in June 2023 after a spinal surgery. I was using it as a second agent for muscle spasms. I am stuck at 1.25 mg daily since Oct 5 with varying degrees of withdrawal symptoms every day. My symptoms include insomnia, tinnitus, nausea, irritability, sweating, flushing, headache and tight musles/muscles spasms. Some days are much better than others. Are these waves and windows?                                                             

I have noticed that in the last 3-5 days, my symptoms worsen early in the afternoon after taking the medication. Is this a sign that I'm in tolerance? I have been holding here to see if the symptoms will settle. It seems like the symptoms seem to be calming for a day or two then come back worse again.

My question is, should I continue holding or continue to taper? I was thinking maybe a short water taper to get myself off of this? I am worried about having protracted withdrawal symptoms if I go too quickly. I have another post going in the Tapering group but thought I'd post here too to see if anyone can tell me what I'm dealing with. 

Thank you for any advice you have. I am trying to learn so I can help myself. 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by [...]

[[Sc...]]

Hi @[...], You have done well to get down to 1.25 mg daily, What dosage did you start on in June 2023? 

                   I am down to 3mg Valium, and I'm having the same symptoms as yourself, I've been on it 2 years, I've been holding, with some relief somedays, but then followed by brutal days, I don't know if to carry on holding, or cut again, as I really want off this poison, The good thing with you is you have only been taking it a short time, I'm just scared the symptoms bad enough now, the lower I go the worse it's going to get, and that's before jumping and facing Acute, which I believe is when true healing starts.

               @[Wi...] has been advicing me, and a great help I am going to ask him, what I should go down to from 3mg he did mention getting scales, I find this all so daunting, So very greatful for the caring advice we get from here, as it certainly isn't given from the medical proffesion in the UK......They just offer more drugs!!! 

             I don't know if we both sound as if we in Tolerance or interdose withdrawal, hopefully others will chime in with their advice.

           I hope things improve for us both. 

[[Sc...]]

Sorry @[...], yes I believe these are waves and windows you are experiencing as am I 

[[...]]

The little cuts near the end can be worse than the larger cuts early on. I would hold till you feel you can cut again. Avoid up dosing.

[Guest [...]]

Hi @[...]

I posted on your other thread. 

We are all basically in tolerance as we have tapered below a truly therapeutic dose. All we are doing is minimising symptoms as best we can by tapering and adjusting to each lower dose on the way down. Basically, we are not meant to feel good because our doses are too low to mask our dependancy. 

I think it’s important for you to understand that your symptoms are the result of your fast taper… which has destabilised you, and your dose may now be too low to alleviate your symptoms to the extent you would be hoping. Holding does give your brain time to adjust to each new lower dose, however, the combination of fast tapering can destabilise your system, increase symptoms, and the lower doses make it more difficult to find that comfortable previous baseline level you settled to on the higher doses. 

I would take particular notice of how comfortable your symptoms are prior to dosing….  Are they at a level where you feel you could make a small reduction, or do you feel you need to hold a bit longer? 

 

[Guest [...]]

2 hours ago, [[S...] said:

Hi @[...], You have done well to get down to 1.25 mg daily, What dosage did you start on in June 2023? 

                   I am down to 3mg Valium, and I'm having the same symptoms as yourself, I've been on it 2 years, I've been holding, with some relief somedays, but then followed by brutal days, I don't know if to carry on holding, or cut again, as I really want off this poison, The good thing with you is you have only been taking it a short time, I'm just scared the symptoms bad enough now, the lower I go the worse it's going to get, and that's before jumping and facing Acute, which I believe is when true healing starts.

               @[Wi...] has been advicing me, and a great help I am going to ask him, what I should go down to from 3mg he did mention getting scales, I find this all so daunting, So very greatful for the caring advice we get from here, as it certainly isn't given from the medical proffesion in the UK......They just offer more drugs!!! 

             I don't know if we both sound as if we in Tolerance or interdose withdrawal, hopefully others will chime in with their advice.

           I hope things improve for us both. 

I’ll reply to this a little later, @[Sc...]

[[Sc...]]

@[Wi...] Thank you only when you have time, nice to hear from you 

[[...]]

4 hours ago, [[W...] said:

Hi @[...]

I posted on your other thread. 

We are all basically in tolerance as we have tapered below a truly therapeutic dose. All we are doing is minimising symptoms as best we can by tapering and adjusting to each lower dose on the way down. Basically, we are not meant to feel good because our doses are too low to mask our dependancy. 

I think it’s important for you to understand that your symptoms are the result of your fast taper… which has destabilised you, and your dose may now be too low to alleviate your symptoms to the extent you would be hoping. Holding does give your brain time to adjust to each new lower dose, however, the combination of fast tapering can destabilise your system, increase symptoms, and the lower doses make it more difficult to find that comfortable previous baseline level you settled to on the higher doses. 

I would take particular notice of how comfortable your symptoms are prior to dosing….  Are they at a level where you feel you could make a small reduction, or do you feel you need to hold a bit longer? 

@[Wi...]Thanks for replying here too. I replied to you on the other thread. I wish I had known more about tapering when I made that last cut. I agree with you that I tapered too quickly and now I'm dealing with the consequences. I'm so thankful for your help and expertise.

At the moment I'm feeling like I should hold here and give myself time to stabilize. Am I correct that it is not wise to stay at a dose for more than 4 weeks?

Yesterday I was given the 5 mg/5 ml oral solution with instructions to taper down by 20% every 7 days. I could dilute it and taper myself down very slowly. 

[[...]]

7 hours ago, [[S...] said:

Hi @[...], You have done well to get down to 1.25 mg daily, What dosage did you start on in June 2023? 

                   I am down to 3mg Valium, and I'm having the same symptoms as yourself, I've been on it 2 years, I've been holding, with some relief somedays, but then followed by brutal days, I don't know if to carry on holding, or cut again, as I really want off this poison, The good thing with you is you have only been taking it a short time, I'm just scared the symptoms bad enough now, the lower I go the worse it's going to get, and that's before jumping and facing Acute, which I believe is when true healing starts.

               @[Wi...] has been advicing me, and a great help I am going to ask him, what I should go down to from 3mg he did mention getting scales, I find this all so daunting, So very greatful for the caring advice we get from here, as it certainly isn't given from the medical proffesion in the UK......They just offer more drugs!!! 

             I don't know if we both sound as if we in Tolerance or interdose withdrawal, hopefully others will chime in with their advice.

           I hope things improve for us both. 

@[Sc...] thanks for the reply. I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with the same issue. It is so difficult to know what to do next as it seems as if everyone different. I too am grateful for the wonderful advice I have received here. The symptoms come and go in severity like riding a rollercoaster. Thus I change my mind throughout the day about holding vs tapering. I tagged you in a post about tapering where @[Wi...] is helping me. Maybe it will help you too. It has helped me a lot to read about what is working for others. I hope we can both have improvement soon and get on with healing. 

[[Li...]]

@[...] I am tapering on valium also.  My symptoms linger every day but are worse in the evenings and when I am stressed or don't sleep.  I am actually holding at 2 mg right now to let my body level out a little.  I have the liquid form also and I count the drops.  When I decrease I just go down 1 drop which is about 0.05 mg.  The lower the dose the worst the symptoms for me.  It is good that you are on a low dose and have not been on it for a long time.  You can do this!  

[[Kh...]]

[[...]]

51 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

@[...] I am tapering on valium also.  My symptoms linger every day but are worse in the evenings and when I am stressed or don't sleep.  I am actually holding at 2 mg right now to let my body level out a little.  I have the liquid form also and I count the drops.  When I decrease I just go down 1 drop which is about 0.05 mg.  The lower the dose the worst the symptoms for me.  It is good that you are on a low dose and have not been on it for a long time.  You can do this!  

Thanks for the encouragement! How long have you been holding and how long do you plan to hold? I'm trying to decide if my symptoms are going to improve if I hold or if I should just start tapering again. I go back and forth on that. 

Thanks for the info on the dropper. That would be easier than diluting. Does the solution come with a dropper? I haven't picked it up yet.

Best wishes to you! We can do this, especially with the support from this group.

[[Li...]]

[Guest [...]]

13 hours ago, [[S...] said:

Hi @[...], You have done well to get down to 1.25 mg daily, What dosage did you start on in June 2023? 

                   I am down to 3mg Valium, and I'm having the same symptoms as yourself, I've been on it 2 years, I've been holding, with some relief somedays, but then followed by brutal days, I don't know if to carry on holding, or cut again, as I really want off this poison, The good thing with you is you have only been taking it a short time, I'm just scared the symptoms bad enough now, the lower I go the worse it's going to get, and that's before jumping and facing Acute, which I believe is when true healing starts.

               @[Wi...] has been advicing me, and a great help I am going to ask him, what I should go down to from 3mg he did mention getting scales, I find this all so daunting, So very greatful for the caring advice we get from here, as it certainly isn't given from the medical proffesion in the UK......They just offer more drugs!!! 

             I don't know if we both sound as if we in Tolerance or interdose withdrawal, hopefully others will chime in with their advice.

           I hope things improve for us both. 

Hi @[Sc...]

How long have you been holding on the 3mg daily dose now? 

If you cast your mind back… can you detect improvement in any of your symptoms at all since holding? Even the slightest of improvements? 

If you do decide to taper, it seems to me that you will need to taper at lower percentages now, which would mean using liquid or a jewellers scale. This really isn’t something to be overwhelmed by, as we will guide you through this simple process. 

We can discuss this later on, once I’ve had a bit of sleep. 

[[Sc...]]

Hi@winters Sun, 

             I'm heading to my 6th week, I had a 6day window which was wonderful but there have been some brutal days, since Window closed, But yes there has been improvements, got a little more sleep, which was well needed, 

                      My GI symptoms which have always been there from start of taper, worries me, (Nausea diahorea) as I really can't afford to loose any more weight, but obviously the lower I go this I know will worsen, there are lots of other symptoms too.

     The medical proffesion are advicing the same cut as last time .5 quarter tablet a day, but that was brutal last time, what is your recommendation? I think maybe scales would be way to go or do you recommend liquid, I've read alot of people having trouble changing over to liquid from tablet, but I'm open to anything, Hope you don't mind me asking have you dropped since last time? And how are you? 

 

[[Sc...]]

@[Wi...] Hope you received my last post 

[[mi...]]

@[Wi...] is there actually proof that we are all intolerance at lower doses. Because some people taper all the way down and walk off without problems which means that isn’t always the case. Some people have a really difficult taper and then as things get lower, it actually gets easier for them such as my sister, who had a rough middle of her taper, but zero symptoms from .1 mg the rest of the way and no acute. It seems there is an insane tolerance train on this website where everybody thinks everyone is in tolerance all the time. It’s true maybe it’s not but I feel like it’s the same statement for everybody that when you get to the lower doses and you stabilize you don’t have enough drug to stabilize you again. Is that scientifically verified or is that your own personal experience because sometimes I just wonder if people are taking advice based on other peoples experience, when in fact, their story might be different. I was just really curious because everybody seems to do a little bit worse when they get lower but I don’t know if you can call that tolerance per se or if you’re just dealing with less receptor occupancy or something else we know nothing about. I wonder if I am intolerance also but I think that it can be dangerous to suggest that people are just because they’re struggling , in fact, further tapering significantly harm due to that advice. Everyone is different and I don’t think anyone really has the answers. 

[Guest [...]]

On 26/10/2023 at 04:35, [[S...] said:

Hi@winters Sun, 

             I'm heading to my 6th week, I had a 6day window which was wonderful but there have been some brutal days, since Window closed, But yes there has been improvements, got a little more sleep, which was well needed, 

                      My GI symptoms which have always been there from start of taper, worries me, (Nausea diahorea) as I really can't afford to loose any more weight, but obviously the lower I go this I know will worsen, there are lots of other symptoms too.

     The medical proffesion are advicing the same cut as last time .5 quarter tablet a day, but that was brutal last time, what is your recommendation? I think maybe scales would be way to go or do you recommend liquid, I've read alot of people having trouble changing over to liquid from tablet, but I'm open to anything, Hope you don't mind me asking have you dropped since last time? And how are you? 

Hi @[Sc...]

Have you detected any correlation between the onset of your waves and external stresses in your life… taking on too many tasks or projects when you are in a window, or any stored internal trauma (difficult emotions) arising randomly just before the onset of a wave of symptoms?

To hear you say there has definitely been improvement over these six weeks (regardless of waves) makes me wonder if maintaining patience wouldn’t  be the right thing to do right now, and see if you continue to gradually improve over a little longer period. Six weeks isn’t a long time when trying to regain stabilisation. It took me 14 weeks before I knew I was ready to taper again, and I didn’t notice any improvement for the first 5 -6 weeks. 

Doctors don’t think about using scales to taper, as it’s not something they’re trained in, so they keep it simple by advising halving or quartering tablets, which does not allow one to taper at a set reduction percentage of each new lower dose. The brain doesn’t like this. The brain tolerates reductions best when you are only removing a set percentage calculated from each remaining lower dose. I think scales may be your best option here. 

You have to remember, doctors have no idea what it feels like to withdraw from these medications, they simply follow guidelines provided to them by others who also have no idea of what it’s like to withdraw from these medications. 

The more stable you are, the better you will tolerate your reductions once you begin tapering again (the more solid the foundation, the more weight it can carry). 

In the end, you are the only one who can say whether you are still continuing to stabilise, so have a good think about how things have improved over this six weeks and ask yourself if you can see things further improving by holding longer. Just don’t allow impatience be your only guide, especially if you suspect you may still be on the improve, despite the waves. 

I would be looking at no more than a 10% reduction once you do resume your taper. That would reduce you to 2.7mg. You may even want to reduce by only 5% to begin with, reducing you to 2.85mg, which is why a jewellers scale or liquid would be advised. 

[Guest [...]]

20 hours ago, [[m...] said:

@[Wi...] is there actually proof that we are all intolerance at lower doses. Because some people taper all the way down and walk off without problems which means that isn’t always the case. Some people have a really difficult taper and then as things get lower, it actually gets easier for them such as my sister, who had a rough middle of her taper, but zero symptoms from .1 mg the rest of the way and no acute. It seems there is an insane tolerance train on this website where everybody thinks everyone is in tolerance all the time. It’s true maybe it’s not but I feel like it’s the same statement for everybody that when you get to the lower doses and you stabilize you don’t have enough drug to stabilize you again. Is that scientifically verified or is that your own personal experience because sometimes I just wonder if people are taking advice based on other peoples experience, when in fact, their story might be different. I was just really curious because everybody seems to do a little bit worse when they get lower but I don’t know if you can call that tolerance per se or if you’re just dealing with less receptor occupancy or something else we know nothing about. I wonder if I am intolerance also but I think that it can be dangerous to suggest that people are just because they’re struggling , in fact, further tapering significantly harm due to that advice. Everyone is different and I don’t think anyone really has the answers. 

Most of the people who find their way to BB are the ones who have issues coming off these medications. Not everyone does. If you have developed a dependancy without knowing it, and then decide to taper, you may taper, from let’s say 10mg valium down to 5mg before you begin to experience symptoms of any significance. This would suggest you have reached a dose that no longer provides a therapeutic effect as it once did. You have now reached a dose tolerance. If you up that dose again, symptoms subside, but the goal is to taper off, and there’s no way to avoid those symptoms as you continue to lower in dose. All we can do is minimise the symptoms as best we can by tapering at a percentage and rate that allows us to adjust on the way down and keep those symptoms in check… avoid more intense or acute type symptoms.

Of course, tolerance is different for each individual, with some experiencing extremely intense symptoms when in tolerance, whereas other individuals may experience less intense symptoms, or anywhere in between. It’s tolerance nonetheless. 

It’s no different than two separate individuals presenting with the same 50 symptoms… exactly the same symptom profile. However, just because each present with exactly the same symptom profile, it doesn’t mean both of those individuals are experiencing the same intensity of those symptoms. The extreme to which one individual experiences the intensity of those symptoms may be far worse than the other individual.

This is why we can never measure our own experience against another. 

[[Sc...]]

@[Wi...] Only just had a good look at your very informative questions.....Thank you, I'm in my charity shop working today, will message you back later when I'm home and I have the time, your so very kind thinking of me, don't know how you manage to message everyone. Your a little a little trooper 

[[Sc...]]

@[Wi...]I can't specifically say, stress brings on the waves, sometimes things will be going well, then boom the window closes!! And the wave appears, but yes sometimes stress does play a part, and maybe as you say overdoing it when you are in a window. 

                    I know it is still early days, and I do think your right sticking at 3mg is the way to go at moment to get more stability, as I have to take in the brain surgery I had and then, the stupid idea of mine to drop so soon after surgery, I don't want to go back there again, the fact I'm getting some sleep which before I was having none, has also helped my CNS to calm a bit more. 

                     I do not intend to listen to the advice of medical professional, my taper will be slower, and smaller reductions, maybe 5%. I think I have just wanted to be off this poison and worry I am going over 2 years of usage, but as you say it's not a race, it's about living a relatively normal functional life while tapering. 

                Could you advise me on what type of scales I would need when I do decide to take my next drop, and how this will be done.

                 I hope you are in a good place yourself after upping your last dose 

                      

[Guest [...]]

I think your above plan is very sensible, @[Sc...].

Although you are getting waves, it’s most likely because you haven’t quite stabilised enough yet, but it sound as though you are clearly moving in that direction. It can indeed take time after going through what you’ve been through. It really is about finding your way to your best functional baseline level and then tapering sensibly from there. 

I’m functional and slowly tapering again at 5%. I just have to avoid overextending myself. I can see my CNS is less tolerant to stress this time around. 

Here’s a link to the jewellers scale I use. 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Precision-Milligram-Tweezers-Calibration-Weighing/dp/B011J88S8M

[Guest [...]]

Will explain how to calculate your reductions and use the scale in the next couple of days, @[Sc...]

It’s simple, so please don’t panic. Anyone can do it.