Tapering Klonopin (3.5 months of use)

[[Je...]]

On 30/10/2023 at 15:43, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] First of all, apologies for the delayed reply! I've been so appreciative of how quickly you've been getting back to me.

I'm surprised to hear that tapering wasn't tougher for you the 2nd time around. I hear so much about how each time you reinstate and taper it gets harder. That is reassuring to hear.

I'm so sorry to hear about the cancer diagnosis, but it sounds like you have an incredibly positive attitude about things. It takes serious strength to taper klonopin even during the best of circumstances. Finding the strength and peace of mind to taper klonopin while dealing with cancer is badass beyond belief.

I'm still holding, now at day 22. Saturday was bearable (ish), yesterday was awful, and today is bearable (ish). I still don't feel nearly as stable/confident as i did when i was at .56 and .625.

Your spreadsheet makes perfect sense. What i've found so far is that the first signs of withdrawal after a cut are highly variable for me in terms of time frame. I felt okayish (like between a 4 and 6 out of 10) for the first 9 days of my most recent cut. And then for the next 10 days or so i felt completely awful. We're talking like, 2-3 out of 10. In some previous cuts, it was day 5 to day 10 that were the most brutal. 

When I have been in the depths of the worst stretches of this hold, there is nothing i can do to take my mind off the suffering. The analogy i keep using is something like this, "if you're on fire, no amount of breathing exercises or distractions will ease the pain." And when i'm really in the pit like i have been for much of the past two weeks, the anxiety and depression are just too overwhelming to be combatted. I just sit, cry uncontrollably, and try to think about how i can possibly get out of the hell i've found myself in. 

So, i continue on, trying to fully stabilize at .5mg. I don't have a meeting with the new psych for two more weeks as he is out of town. My marching orders in the interim are to try and taper the Seroquel a bit. As Seroquel in lower doses is an anxiolytic/sleep aid, I am definitely worried about heightened anxiety/insomnia as i dial that back. Then I will need to get to work on tapering the Paxil (eeeek), and then the plan is likely to do some sort of step wise crossover to Valium. So, assuming nothing goes wrong with the seroquel and paxil taper, and i respond well enough to the Valium (far from a guarantee, have heard some rough stories), only then will i finally resume my benzo tapering. I feel pretty defeated by the timeline of all this. Not too mention, my FMLA from work ends in just under 3 weeks. 

I sometimes wish i was living 50-100 years in the future, at which point i'm sure the science and technology relating to mental illnesses, addictions, etc, will make modern day best practices for things like benzo tapering seem shockingly Draconian! I'd imagine you've had similar thoughts in your taper and during your cancer diagnosis.

I am inspired to see you out taking pictures of chickens, appreciating the little things in life. Current situation aside, it doesn't take much to make me happy. I learned that during Covid when life sorta came to a hault. Things like animals, snowfalls and thunderstorms, good food, and the great people i have in my life are more than enough. I am dying for the chance to embrace it all again.

@[Ha...] You don't ever have to apologize for a delayed reply! I know there are times when one just doesn't feel up to typing. It can be hard to concentrate when you're in the thick of it!

I'm really surprised that the second time around tapering wasn't harder, too! Crazy! (And my first taper in 2015 in January I started at 0.5 mg, and January of this year, I was at more than twice that dose. Really surprising!)

Thank you so much for your kind words! Yes, indeed, the cancer thing sucks, no doubt about it. Ironically, it may have helped me to deal better with my taper. (I'm not recommending it, though!)

I seriously love your analysis: when you're on fire no amount of breathing exercises or distractions will ease the pain. That is so true. And I've been there. That's one of my challenges with meditation and being in the present moment. Sometimes the present moment sucks. A lot. I don't want to be in the present when I KNOW the future will be better. It's a problem. I just keep trying. 

OK, having your FMLA running out in three weeks has got to be stressful! That kind of thing just piles on. During my first polydrug taper in 2015 I did work the entire time. It was not easy at all, but I was still able to do it. Being at work actually helped a bit because it provided distraction that I wasn't necessarily able to give to myself when I was at home. 

I'm glad you're having some bearable (ish!) days! That is a step in the right direction! I know, I wish we lived in the future, too, and that this was all much, much simpler! (Or we hadn't been prescribed in the first place.)

You say you're marching orders are to start tapering your Seroquel? If it were me, I might wait until I felt better at the 0.5 mg of clonazepam? Especially if it's helping you. Just a thought.

Right!? It really doesn't take much at all to make me happy these days. I mean I'm pretty excited that I have leftover casserole for dinner. 

Jess 

[[Ma...]]

On 30/10/2023 at 18:43, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] First of all, apologies for the delayed reply! I've been so appreciative of how quickly you've been getting back to me.

I'm surprised to hear that tapering wasn't tougher for you the 2nd time around. I hear so much about how each time you reinstate and taper it gets harder. That is reassuring to hear.

I'm so sorry to hear about the cancer diagnosis, but it sounds like you have an incredibly positive attitude about things. It takes serious strength to taper klonopin even during the best of circumstances. Finding the strength and peace of mind to taper klonopin while dealing with cancer is badass beyond belief.

I'm still holding, now at day 22. Saturday was bearable (ish), yesterday was awful, and today is bearable (ish). I still don't feel nearly as stable/confident as i did when i was at .56 and .625.

Your spreadsheet makes perfect sense. What i've found so far is that the first signs of withdrawal after a cut are highly variable for me in terms of time frame. I felt okayish (like between a 4 and 6 out of 10) for the first 9 days of my most recent cut. And then for the next 10 days or so i felt completely awful. We're talking like, 2-3 out of 10. In some previous cuts, it was day 5 to day 10 that were the most brutal. 

When I have been in the depths of the worst stretches of this hold, there is nothing i can do to take my mind off the suffering. The analogy i keep using is something like this, "if you're on fire, no amount of breathing exercises or distractions will ease the pain." And when i'm really in the pit like i have been for much of the past two weeks, the anxiety and depression are just too overwhelming to be combatted. I just sit, cry uncontrollably, and try to think about how i can possibly get out of the hell i've found myself in. 

So, i continue on, trying to fully stabilize at .5mg. I don't have a meeting with the new psych for two more weeks as he is out of town. My marching orders in the interim are to try and taper the Seroquel a bit. As Seroquel in lower doses is an anxiolytic/sleep aid, I am definitely worried about heightened anxiety/insomnia as i dial that back. Then I will need to get to work on tapering the Paxil (eeeek), and then the plan is likely to do some sort of step wise crossover to Valium. So, assuming nothing goes wrong with the seroquel and paxil taper, and i respond well enough to the Valium (far from a guarantee, have heard some rough stories), only then will i finally resume my benzo tapering. I feel pretty defeated by the timeline of all this. Not too mention, my FMLA from work ends in just under 3 weeks. 

I sometimes wish i was living 50-100 years in the future, at which point i'm sure the science and technology relating to mental illnesses, addictions, etc, will make modern day best practices for things like benzo tapering seem shockingly Draconian! I'd imagine you've had similar thoughts in your taper and during your cancer diagnosis.

I am inspired to see you out taking pictures of chickens, appreciating the little things in life. Current situation aside, it doesn't take much to make me happy. I learned that during Covid when life sorta came to a hault. Things like animals, snowfalls and thunderstorms, good food, and the great people i have in my life are more than enough. I am dying for the chance to embrace it all again.

I hit a wall at .5 too.  I held there for a few weeks and have now switched to a water taper after more cuts to .4 gave me a few rough days  I’m kind of a 6/10 most days depending on my sleep which is tolerable.  The water taper is going ok so far (5 days in now).  

[[Ha...]]

16 hours ago, [[M...] said:

I hit a wall at .5 too.  I held there for a few weeks and have now switched to a water taper after more cuts to .4 gave me a few rough days  I’m kind of a 6/10 most days depending on my sleep which is tolerable.  The water taper is going ok so far (5 days in now).  

@[Ma...] how hard of a wall did you hit? Personally, my wall is a WALL. Doing as poorly as I could possibly be doing for the first 75% of the day and get some semblance of relief in the evening. 
 

Did you fully stabilize before continuing your taper? Congrats on making it to .4! 6/10 most days sounds glorious from where I’m sitting. Er, laying. Have you been able to work/study or just generally maintain your daily routines during your taper?
 

I’ll have to ask my psych his thoughts on a water taper. He’s in favor of a switch to Valium for obvious reasons of convenience. But, given the severity of my anxiety/depression during the klonopin cuts (which have admittedly been too rapid), switching meds feels like an enormous gamble.

[[Ma...]]

8 hours ago, [[H...] said:

@[Ma...] how hard of a wall did you hit? Personally, my wall is a WALL. Doing as poorly as I could possibly be doing for the first 75% of the day and get some semblance of relief in the evening. 
 

Did you fully stabilize before continuing your taper? Congrats on making it to .4! 6/10 most days sounds glorious from where I’m sitting. Er, laying. Have you been able to work/study or just generally maintain your daily routines during your taper?
 

I’ll have to ask my psych his thoughts on a water taper. He’s in favor of a switch to Valium for obvious reasons of convenience. But, given the severity of my anxiety/depression during the klonopin cuts (which have admittedly been too rapid), switching meds feels like an enormous gamble.

 

8 hours ago, [[H...] said:

@[Ma...] how hard of a wall did you hit? Personally, my wall is a WALL. Doing as poorly as I could possibly be doing for the first 75% of the day and get some semblance of relief in the evening. 
 

Did you fully stabilize before continuing your taper? Congrats on making it to .4! 6/10 most days sounds glorious from where I’m sitting. Er, laying. Have you been able to work/study or just generally maintain your daily routines during your taper?
 

I’ll have to ask my psych his thoughts on a water taper. He’s in favor of a switch to Valium for obvious reasons of convenience. But, given the severity of my anxiety/depression during the klonopin cuts (which have admittedly been too rapid), switching meds feels like an enormous gamble.

I have been generally able to do most things but have gad to dial back on morning commitments as that is when I feel the worst.  Fortunately I’m retired; I have no idea how people go through this while trying to work or have kids.  I haven’t really felt “fully stabilized” throughout my taper and just pray there are better days at the end of this.  I’m going at a medium/fast ish pace and we will see how it goes at the lower doses.  I think the water taper is helping me as I’ve had about 4 pretty good days in a row now. 

[[Ha...]]

On 01/11/2023 at 15:27, [[J...] said:

@[Ha...] You don't ever have to apologize for a delayed reply! I know there are times when one just doesn't feel up to typing. It can be hard to concentrate when you're in the thick of it!

I'm really surprised that the second time around tapering wasn't harder, too! Crazy! (And my first taper in 2015 in January I started at 0.5 mg, and January of this year, I was at more than twice that dose. Really surprising!)

Thank you so much for your kind words! Yes, indeed, the cancer thing sucks, no doubt about it. Ironically, it may have helped me to deal better with my taper. (I'm not recommending it, though!)

I seriously love your analysis: when you're on fire no amount of breathing exercises or distractions will ease the pain. That is so true. And I've been there. That's one of my challenges with meditation and being in the present moment. Sometimes the present moment sucks. A lot. I don't want to be in the present when I KNOW the future will be better. It's a problem. I just keep trying. 

OK, having your FMLA running out in three weeks has got to be stressful! That kind of thing just piles on. During my first polydrug taper in 2015 I did work the entire time. It was not easy at all, but I was still able to do it. Being at work actually helped a bit because it provided distraction that I wasn't necessarily able to give to myself when I was at home. 

I'm glad you're having some bearable (ish!) days! That is a step in the right direction! I know, I wish we lived in the future, too, and that this was all much, much simpler! (Or we hadn't been prescribed in the first place.)

You say you're marching orders are to start tapering your Seroquel? If it were me, I might wait until I felt better at the 0.5 mg of clonazepam? Especially if it's helping you. Just a thought.

Right!? It really doesn't take much at all to make me happy these days. I mean I'm pretty excited that I have leftover casserole for dinner. 

Jess 

@[Je...] "I don't want to be in the present when I KNOW the future will be better. It's a problem. I just keep trying." This stuck out to me. Your attitude is so much better than mine when i'm in the thick of it. I don't know the future will be better, i don't think the future will be better, yet i hold on in case some way somehow there is a distant chance of returning to a life of happiness and stability. But, no, when I'm swirling in the chemical tornado of anxiety/depression/withdrawal, i don't truly believe there is another side. And that has me bursting with tears, sometimes for hours a day.

And yes, the marching orders are to taper the Seroquel. Of course, my doc understands that i must first stabilize at .5mg. Still not nearly there yet. Still spending the first 2/3 of my day in the deepest pits of despair. My psych told me that it could be advisable to updose to .75mg in order to stabilize, but acknowledged the not insignificant possibility that i will feel no better, which would be demoralizing. He believes more likely than not i will stabilize with a couple more weeks at .5mg. It's a tough call. For now, i continue to wait it out and take the daily beating.

Once i do stabilize, then the plan would be to taper the Seroquel. After tapering the Seroquel, we would taper the Paxil from 50 mg back down to 30mg or even 20mg (dose i've taken my whole life). And then, we would make the crossover to Valium. So yeah, i'm looking at several months before i even resume my taper. I must admit, that in and of itself, is demoralizing. The staggering timeline of everything, even if it all goes to plan. And then the unknowns of recovery. Will i be able to handle the withdrawal? How long will it last? It's tormenting. I could use some more of your strength and optimism in the face of crazy adversity! Don't know how you do it, but i'm making it a goal to find out.

[[Je...]]

23 hours ago, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] "I don't want to be in the present when I KNOW the future will be better. It's a problem. I just keep trying." This stuck out to me. Your attitude is so much better than mine when i'm in the thick of it. I don't know the future will be better, i don't think the future will be better, yet i hold on in case some way somehow there is a distant chance of returning to a life of happiness and stability. But, no, when I'm swirling in the chemical tornado of anxiety/depression/withdrawal, i don't truly believe there is another side. And that has me bursting with tears, sometimes for hours a day.

And yes, the marching orders are to taper the Seroquel. Of course, my doc understands that i must first stabilize at .5mg. Still not nearly there yet. Still spending the first 2/3 of my day in the deepest pits of despair. My psych told me that it could be advisable to updose to .75mg in order to stabilize, but acknowledged the not insignificant possibility that i will feel no better, which would be demoralizing. He believes more likely than not i will stabilize with a couple more weeks at .5mg. It's a tough call. For now, i continue to wait it out and take the daily beating.

Once i do stabilize, then the plan would be to taper the Seroquel. After tapering the Seroquel, we would taper the Paxil from 50 mg back down to 30mg or even 20mg (dose i've taken my whole life). And then, we would make the crossover to Valium. So yeah, i'm looking at several months before i even resume my taper. I must admit, that in and of itself, is demoralizing. The staggering timeline of everything, even if it all goes to plan. And then the unknowns of recovery. Will i be able to handle the withdrawal? How long will it last? It's tormenting. I could use some more of your strength and optimism in the face of crazy adversity! Don't know how you do it, but i'm making it a goal to find out.

@[Ha...] OK, it looks like you have a plan! Please don't let the timeline get you down. I think the most important thing is to feel better - stable - and then just take it one day at a time. Don't even think about how long it will take. It's not a race or a contest - not even with yourself. It's OK to take the time you need to do what is best for yourself. You're taking care of you - and sometimes that takes time to do it right. I know how it feels to just want to be DONE with it all, I do. I was thinking that when I started this nearly three years ago. And now, I'm done. There will come a day when you will look back on this and be amazed at your strength! 

And I'm optimistic because I figure I get to choose. It's sort of a resolution - as in resolve - I was going to do this thing no matter what so I might as well be positive about it. And yes, you will be able to handle it. I believe we are stronger than we know. You are stronger than you know. Look at you now: You are showing up. You are taking the daily beating. And you keep doing it. And it will get easier. (Or "less difficult"). 

This is hard but you are doing it. I wish strength and optimism came in a pill form ... or maybe an aerosol or scented candle ... 'cause we probably don't really need any more damn pills!

Jess 

[[Ha...]]

On 04/11/2023 at 22:28, [[J...] said:

@[Ha...] OK, it looks like you have a plan! Please don't let the timeline get you down. I think the most important thing is to feel better - stable - and then just take it one day at a time. Don't even think about how long it will take. It's not a race or a contest - not even with yourself. It's OK to take the time you need to do what is best for yourself. You're taking care of you - and sometimes that takes time to do it right. I know how it feels to just want to be DONE with it all, I do. I was thinking that when I started this nearly three years ago. And now, I'm done. There will come a day when you will look back on this and be amazed at your strength! 

And I'm optimistic because I figure I get to choose. It's sort of a resolution - as in resolve - I was going to do this thing no matter what so I might as well be positive about it. And yes, you will be able to handle it. I believe we are stronger than we know. You are stronger than you know. Look at you now: You are showing up. You are taking the daily beating. And you keep doing it. And it will get easier. (Or "less difficult"). 

This is hard but you are doing it. I wish strength and optimism came in a pill form ... or maybe an aerosol or scented candle ... 'cause we probably don't really need any more damn pills!

Jess 

@[Je...] Thanks, Jess!

I am really starting to wonder if my current symptoms are a product of the klonopin tapering, or simply a result of a smaller dose of klonopin no longer masking my original issues. 

As a reminder, i went through a prolonged state of panic/extreme GAD for 3 days prior to taking my first klonopin. I've had panic disorder for roughly 10 years, which has been getting worse in the past 2-3 years. What i haven't had as much of an issue with is depression/hopelessness. Nor had i ever had suicidal thoughts. So, the deep depressive state that has me in its grip is more of a new symptom, but the persistent anxiety is what i was feeling off and on (and finally very intensely) prior to taking klonopin.

I feel like i'm a little unique among users here in that i had a fear of benzos before ever starting them. I knew they were highly addictive, i knew that the withdrawals were notorious, but there simply was no anxiolytic on the planet that could solve the sheer terror/panic/restlessness that was coursing through my brain and body. From the minute i started taking the klonopin, i wanted to get off ASAP. My psychiatrist and my family thought i was being hasty, overly paranoid about becoming dependent. After 4 days at .5mg, i felt much better, and decided to discontinue. I felt good for another 3 days before the panic (and what i now understand to be withdrawals or a return of original symptoms) came back in full force. Again, forcing me to take the klonopin.

It has now been just about 4 months with the klonopin. After a brief pyschiatrist-advised cold turkey (substituting for Gabapentin), and a reinstatement requiring 1.5mgs of klonopin to stabilize, i have spent the majority of these 4 months trying to figure out how to get off klonopin. 

I was on 20mg Paxil when this all began. I am now on 50mg Paxil, 62.5mg Seroquel (12.5 day, 50 night), and .5mg klonopin. 

I guess i'm feeling like most people i read about, even those who have been on benzos for years and years, did not turn to benzos out of necessity. Their levels of anxiety/panic didn't precipitate a visit to a psychiatric ER. And they didn't struggle as mightily at .5mg klonopin (or equivalent). I know this is a common theme here, but i can't help but feel it. I feel "different," i feel like an unsolvable case, a ticking time bomb.

You're right that i have a plan in place, but it involves so many ifs. If i can stabilize, if i can successfully taper Seroquel, if i can successful taper Paxil back down to 20 or 30mg, if i can successfully switch to valium, if i can taper to 0 from there, if i can survive the acute withdrawals without reinstating, if i can manage potential PAWS without reinstating, if I can ever feel OK again after that. I'm just... so... defeated.

Pardon the ramble. The psychological turmoil is really really getting the best of me these past 3 weeks.

[[Je...]]

On 06/11/2023 at 11:39, [[H...] said:

@[Je...] Thanks, Jess!

I am really starting to wonder if my current symptoms are a product of the klonopin tapering, or simply a result of a smaller dose of klonopin no longer masking my original issues. 

As a reminder, i went through a prolonged state of panic/extreme GAD for 3 days prior to taking my first klonopin. I've had panic disorder for roughly 10 years, which has been getting worse in the past 2-3 years. What i haven't had as much of an issue with is depression/hopelessness. Nor had i ever had suicidal thoughts. So, the deep depressive state that has me in its grip is more of a new symptom, but the persistent anxiety is what i was feeling off and on (and finally very intensely) prior to taking klonopin.

I feel like i'm a little unique among users here in that i had a fear of benzos before ever starting them. I knew they were highly addictive, i knew that the withdrawals were notorious, but there simply was no anxiolytic on the planet that could solve the sheer terror/panic/restlessness that was coursing through my brain and body. From the minute i started taking the klonopin, i wanted to get off ASAP. My psychiatrist and my family thought i was being hasty, overly paranoid about becoming dependent. After 4 days at .5mg, i felt much better, and decided to discontinue. I felt good for another 3 days before the panic (and what i now understand to be withdrawals or a return of original symptoms) came back in full force. Again, forcing me to take the klonopin.

It has now been just about 4 months with the klonopin. After a brief pyschiatrist-advised cold turkey (substituting for Gabapentin), and a reinstatement requiring 1.5mgs of klonopin to stabilize, i have spent the majority of these 4 months trying to figure out how to get off klonopin. 

I was on 20mg Paxil when this all began. I am now on 50mg Paxil, 62.5mg Seroquel (12.5 day, 50 night), and .5mg klonopin. 

I guess i'm feeling like most people i read about, even those who have been on benzos for years and years, did not turn to benzos out of necessity. Their levels of anxiety/panic didn't precipitate a visit to a psychiatric ER. And they didn't struggle as mightily at .5mg klonopin (or equivalent). I know this is a common theme here, but i can't help but feel it. I feel "different," i feel like an unsolvable case, a ticking time bomb.

You're right that i have a plan in place, but it involves so many ifs. If i can stabilize, if i can successfully taper Seroquel, if i can successful taper Paxil back down to 20 or 30mg, if i can successfully switch to valium, if i can taper to 0 from there, if i can survive the acute withdrawals without reinstating, if i can manage potential PAWS without reinstating, if I can ever feel OK again after that. I'm just... so... defeated.

Pardon the ramble. The psychological turmoil is really really getting the best of me these past 3 weeks.

@[Ha...] I am so sorry that you are going through all of this! I know you feel awful. After reading your description again, it really does sound like your original symptoms returned (GAD and panic) and that your depressive state may be due to the klonopin - I think that's kind of how it works to combat panic and anxiety. I can feel your frustration and sense of defeat and I am so, so sorry. This is SO hard. But I think you are right: you ARE different. But we're all on a different journey, even when there are similarities, and hopefully, some of the similarities might resonate or be of a comfort for you. 

I've been to the ER several times when I was having a panic attack and didn't know what was going on. It was so scary. 

I had a psychiatrist that prescribed my meds, but that was pretty much all they did. I didn't really get any tools from them to learn to deal with the panic and anxiety. For that I had to find a psychologist, and that made all the difference. 

You can ramble any time! I hope you are feeling a bit better today!

Jess

 

[[me...]]

Hi everyone I started with anxiety when I went through the menopause I also had alot of life's issues I was told my cortisol levels were through the roof and to cut back caring for my parents which started when I was 12years old never regretted it but didn't take care of my self..any way I was offered hormone treatment which I declined and now wish I'd taken them. As the in going stress has resulted in health problems chronic pain and the drafted clonazapam been told I can't have hormone replacement now I'm too old 🤔🤔🤔🧜‍♀️

[[he...]]

@[Ha...] I'm so sorry you've had to go through this. So many of us have a similar story. If you look in my profile, you'll see mine. I started taking .25 to .5 mg K just PRN after having a couple panic attacks following a traumatic event involving my heart. It worked right at first to quell the panic, but almost immediately my palpitations got worse and I started having chest pain I realized could be relieved by getting a jump on the day and just taking the K, so I asked my doctor and got approval to start taking .5 mg every morning. Soon, insomnia and free-floating anxiety starting plaguing me, and my doctor allowed me to increase my dose. I ended up at .875 mg K about three months after starting, and I was worse than ever and had no idea what had happened. It was at that point I did what I should have done in the beginning in the midst of panic and did some research.

That's what I found benzobuddies and discovered what had happened to me. I told my doc I wanted to taper, and he told me, like your doc, that he'd never seen anything like this happen and told me to just stop taking the K if it wasn't working. I refused to do that and asked him to give me a taper plan. He gave me a six-week plan, and while I hoped I could somehow do that, I asked if he would allow me to taper at my own rate based on symptoms, and I gave him some information about the Ashton manual and how a certain percentage of people become dependent and struggle to get off, even with a slow taper. He told me he'd never heard of someone having to taper so slowly, said he had other patients on much more than my "low dose," but he agreed.

I started tapering by pill splitting with a razor blade and managed to get down to .8125 mg and then .75 mg with worsening symptoms each time. My baseline at this point was not great, but it was much worse with these cuts, especially the second. So I chose a percentage rate that was less than either of these cuts, bought a lab scale and a nail file and completed a 19.5-month dry microtaper (I tried a couple liquid formulations, and they didn't work for me). I could not have completed it any faster than I did. Thankfully, after having to slow down periodically due to worsening symptoms, I realized slowing down was no longer helping and actually hurting. I experimented with speeding up and found I could taper at almost double the speed I had been going and was able to go much faster over the last eight months. Like you, I was worried about being on the drug longer than I had to be, but I knew if I went too fast, I'd be many timesworse. With as bad as the taper was, that would've wrecked me. It is truly a miracle I made it through what I did.

Now six months off, I'm getting some much better days, and I'm only down to about three symptoms that pick and choose when and at what intensity they'll hit me each day. I'm definitely healing, though it's slow, but it's happening, and I have hope again and can enjoy my days. I spent many days of my taper where that was impossible. No matter how long this takes, you can do this, and you will get better!

[[mi...]]

@[he...] I read you jumped around .050mg, double the suggested jump dose. Did you feel any major uptick jumping at this level or was it more of the same. Would love to taper down to zero, but don’t want to prolong suffering if I don’t need to, since I no longer seem to be able to stabilize my low-dose of .161mg

[[Ha...]]

26 minutes ago, [[h...] said:

@[Ha...] I'm so sorry you've had to go through this. So many of us have a similar story. If you look in my profile, you'll see mine. I started taking .25 to .5 mg K just PRN after having a couple panic attacks following a traumatic event involving my heart. It worked right at first to quell the panic, but almost immediately my palpitations got worse and I started having chest pain I realized could be relieved by getting a jump on the day and just taking the K, so I asked my doctor and got approval to start taking .5 mg every morning. Soon, insomnia and free-floating anxiety starting plaguing me, and my doctor allowed me to increase my dose. I ended up at .875 mg K about three months after starting, and I was worse than ever and had no idea what had happened. It was at that point I did what I should have done in the beginning in the midst of panic and did some research.

That's what I found benzobuddies and discovered what had happened to me. I told my doc I wanted to taper, and he told me, like your doc, that he'd never seen anything like this happen and told me to just stop taking the K if it wasn't working. I refused to do that and asked him to give me a taper plan. He gave me a six-week plan, and while I hoped I could somehow do that, I asked if he would allow me to taper at my own rate based on symptoms, and I gave him some information about the Ashton manual and how a certain percentage of people become dependent and struggle to get off, even with a slow taper. He told me he'd never heard of someone having to taper so slowly, said he had other patients on much more than my "low dose," but he agreed.

I started tapering by pill splitting with a razor blade and managed to get down to .8125 mg and then .75 mg with worsening symptoms each time. My baseline at this point was not great, but it was much worse with these cuts, especially the second. So I chose a percentage rate that was less than either of these cuts, bought a lab scale and a nail file and completed a 19.5-month dry microtaper (I tried a couple liquid formulations, and they didn't work for me). I could not have completed it any faster than I did. Thankfully, after having to slow down periodically due to worsening symptoms, I realized slowing down was no longer helping and actually hurting. I experimented with speeding up and found I could taper at almost double the speed I had been going and was able to go much faster over the last eight months. Like you, I was worried about being on the drug longer than I had to be, but I knew if I went too fast, I'd be many timesworse. With as bad as the taper was, that would've wrecked me. It is truly a miracle I made it through what I did.

Now six months off, I'm getting some much better days, and I'm only down to about three symptoms that pick and choose when and at what intensity they'll hit me each day. I'm definitely healing, though it's slow, but it's happening, and I have hope again and can enjoy my days. I spent many days of my taper where that was impossible. No matter how long this takes, you can do this, and you will get better!

@[he...] ahh, it is such a relief to communicate with someone who has been through something similar. 

Did you experience depression and anxiety during your taper? These have been the very heavy hitters, and have given me all i can take for the past 3 weeks as i've tried to stabilize at .5mg. I'm in the lovely position of being polydrugged (50mg paxil - took 20 for most of my life before this, and 50mg Seroquel nightly) as well. My new benzo savvy psych would like me to first taper the Seroquel, then the Paxil (back down to 30 or 20mg), and then switch over to valium. It's a terrifying mountain to climb for someone who is nowhere near stable at .5mg. 

Oh, also out of curiosity, were you able to hold your job during your taper? I'm coming up to the end of my FMLA and it seems like I will have no other option other than to forfeit my job. Even on my best days over the past 3+ weeks, i've been nowhere near capable of hypothetically returning to my job. I'm a sweaty, anxious, depressed ball of suffering, rolling around in bed until like noon every day lately.

What are your three final symptoms?

[[he...]]

16 hours ago, [[m...] said:

@[he...] I read you jumped around .050mg, double the suggested jump dose. Did you feel any major uptick jumping at this level or was it more of the same. Would love to taper down to zero, but don’t want to prolong suffering if I don’t need to, since I no longer seem to be able to stabilize my low-dose of .161mg

Hi @[mi...], you read correctly. I got to the point where I did not have the mental fortitude to continue any further and chose to jump at the high end of what Ashton recommended. She gave both .5 and 1 mg Valium (diazepam) as potential jump doses, which are .025 and .05 mg Klonopin (clonazepam), respectively, but only if you look at her equivalencies. Other calculators, like Clincalc are more conservative, and gives .75 mg V for .05 mg K. So, perhaps it was a risk, but it was one worth taking, because I was done, and it allowed me to set a date once I chose my jump dose, and that gave me a huge mental boost. As far as symptoms getting worse? No, they actually didn't, and they boost I got from finally being done tapering was huge. SI disappeared almost completely except on just a few random days where symptoms were worse and I was weary, and it was extreme throughout my taper. Ashton herself said if you go any lower, you are just prolonging the dependency, and what's the benefit of that?

[[he...]]

@[Ha...], yes, I experienced a lot of depression and anxiety during my taper, and I would guess most, if not all, of us do. You cannot think clearly early on and everything seems dark and hopeless, and you have mental and physical symptoms on top of that making life feel unbearable at times. Add to that, you're having to prepare doses all the time and take them on schedule so things don't get any worse. It's a heck of a lot for anyone to handle, especially when we feel so awful much of the time. But... once I had my jump dose and date set, that stuff all started to go. The chemical free-floating anxiety actually lifted completely a month before I jumped and has never returned. And true anxiety now about anything big or small is almost non-existent because of the resiliency and perspective gained through this journey. I do not feel anxiety about unknowns or big decisions like I used to. Anxiety was never an issue for me, but I would feel it on occasion just wondering if things would work out, but I tell you, now it is gone. Stuff just doesn't matter that much anymore. I know nothing that happens could be as bad as what I've already gone through.

I was able to keep my job because my company is like a family and very understanding. But also, I managed to make it into the office many days when I didn't feel like I could. I just pushed myself because my family needed me to. Yes, I did miss days, more than I'm allotted, but my company understood, over time, that something substantial was going on, and I was not faking it, and even though they rely on me heavily for important things, they wanted to see me get better too and return back to health. So maybe you don't have to leave your job. Maybe you can keep pushing and keep it. Just taper at a reasonable rate and don't push it. I thought many times I was going to have to because I just couldn't work and get better, but it never happened, and I could work and heal at the same time. My main coping method has been to walk a mile in nature during lunch EVERY day. That has helped tremendously.

My final three symptoms are head aches/floating/fuzziness, pressure (legs/chest/throat/head), and palpitations (mainly PACs but occasionally SVTs and PVCs). I also sometimes feel very fatigued, but it seems to be a function of my head stuff, as I feel it mainly in my head and my eyes feel very tired. All of these things, though, have improved, and  I experience them much less frequently and at lower intensities compared to during my taper. All mental symptoms left during my taper. Any depressed thoughts or SI have been solely due to the ongoing physical symptoms and other challenges in life getting the better of me, but this has been extremely rare since I jumped back in May.

You can do this, and you will make it!

[[Ha...]]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:58, [[h...] said:

@[Ha...], yes, I experienced a lot of depression and anxiety during my taper, and I would guess most, if not all, of us do. You cannot think clearly early on and everything seems dark and hopeless, and you have mental and physical symptoms on top of that making life feel unbearable at times. Add to that, you're having to prepare doses all the time and take them on schedule so things don't get any worse. It's a heck of a lot for anyone to handle, especially when we feel so awful much of the time. But... once I had my jump dose and date set, that stuff all started to go. The chemical free-floating anxiety actually lifted completely a month before I jumped and has never returned. And true anxiety now about anything big or small is almost non-existent because of the resiliency and perspective gained through this journey. I do not feel anxiety about unknowns or big decisions like I used to. Anxiety was never an issue for me, but I would feel it on occasion just wondering if things would work out, but I tell you, now it is gone. Stuff just doesn't matter that much anymore. I know nothing that happens could be as bad as what I've already gone through.

I was able to keep my job because my company is like a family and very understanding. But also, I managed to make it into the office many days when I didn't feel like I could. I just pushed myself because my family needed me to. Yes, I did miss days, more than I'm allotted, but my company understood, over time, that something substantial was going on, and I was not faking it, and even though they rely on me heavily for important things, they wanted to see me get better too and return back to health. So maybe you don't have to leave your job. Maybe you can keep pushing and keep it. Just taper at a reasonable rate and don't push it. I thought many times I was going to have to because I just couldn't work and get better, but it never happened, and I could work and heal at the same time. My main coping method has been to walk a mile in nature during lunch EVERY day. That has helped tremendously.

My final three symptoms are head aches/floating/fuzziness, pressure (legs/chest/throat/head), and palpitations (mainly PACs but occasionally SVTs and PVCs). I also sometimes feel very fatigued, but it seems to be a function of my head stuff, as I feel it mainly in my head and my eyes feel very tired. All of these things, though, have improved, and  I experience them much less frequently and at lower intensities compared to during my taper. All mental symptoms left during my taper. Any depressed thoughts or SI have been solely due to the ongoing physical symptoms and other challenges in life getting the better of me, but this has been extremely rare since I jumped back in May.

You can do this, and you will make it!

@[he...] thanks for the message and apologies for the delayed reply. Last few days have been a doozy.

It's very interesting that your anxiety symptoms dissipated as soon as the finish line was in sight. It illustrates something i've had in my mind of late, a sort of a pet theory. I think in pretty much every place outside of benzo support communities, the symptomology of benzo withdrawal is vastly underestimated. Thought distortions, underlying psychiatric disorders, psychosomatic manifestations are overemphasized, and benzo-induced symptomology is downplayed or written off entirely.

I think sometimes the opposite is true within benzo communities. If someone presents with severe anxiety during their taper or withdrawal, it is assumed to be 100% attributable to benzo withdrawal. Sometimes these beliefs can get a little militant, where people are inclined to believe that every negative feeling and every positive feeling experienced in benzo withdrawal, is 100% attributable to CNS dysregulation caused by the benzos.

I think most people who find themselves on benzos were dealing with some form of psychological distress, some lack of equilibrium, prior to taking the medication. I, for example, have a long history of GAD and Panic Disorder. For others, it's may be insomnia or ptsd, general uneasiness/agitation. I'm painting with broad strokes, but i think it's fair to say people who take benzos tend to have a significantly higher incidence of psychological issues than the general population. 

I am sure in my case i have had moments, or even days, where my own underlying pscyhiatric disorders have played a bigger part in my suffering than the Gaba/Glutamate shitstorm has. And i often wonder if i was completely unaware of the shitstorm i've found myself in, how much different would my experience be.

I guess this is a very roundabout way of asking you -- do you think your anxiety symptoms were significantly impacted by fears and expectations? If you knew from the get-go that you would make it to where you are today, how do you think your anxiety might have been affected throughout the proces?

I'm struggling with the whole chicken or the egg conundrum of anxiety and benzos.

[[he...]]

Hi @[Ha...]! I believe it can be either. Some people will have anxiety and other mental symptoms that can be attributed, at least in part, to other causes, but some have these symptoms due to BIND (Benzodiazepine-Induced Neurological Dysfunction) alone. I believe all of my symptoms, outside of natural fear and depression over this awful situation, were due to BIND alone, because I had already gotten over the panic attacks I started taking the drug for in the beginning. If I would've known I could get over them without taking something, I never would've taken it. Unfortunately, that's what happened, and by the time I was over the initial issue, I was dependent on a horrible drug that was now causing new symptoms I never had, like the free-floating chemical anxiety. It never had any cause but would just show up randomly and leave whenever it wanted. And I would say, any natural fear, anxiety, or depression was multiplied 100-fold thanks to BIND. Those natural responses were turned up to 11 as it were.

So yes, I agree with you in regards to some in the community, but for others, we have symptoms attributable only to the benzo that we had never experienced before taking them.

[[mi...]]

@[he...] How did you schedule your microtaper... did you reduce a little bit each day, or did you space out your reductions a few days. I'm going to try out 0.0001g reductions pill weight every day for 5 days, and then hold 2, then repeat and see how that goes.

[[he...]]

Hey @[mi...], for the majority of my taper, I stuck to a percentage reduction and reduced every day. Once I got stuck going too slowly, I decided to just go linear and started reducing by .0012 mg every day until it got too rough, and then I settled on the equivalent percentage before it got rough and stuck to that for a bit, but I was willing to try to go faster periodically because I could easily adjust back, since I was cutting daily, if it didn't go well. Check out my history to see the journey in detail.

[[he...]]

That being said, I've also heard of people cutting for a number of days and then holding a day or two or three with good results. Sort of a modified microtaper. You just have to figure out what seems to work best for you.