Expensive Scale for Dry Microtapering

[[Ma...]]

26 minutes ago, [[m...] said:

Yeah I told my wife that. I said we can put a man on the moon but we don’t know what’s happening with our bodies. Yeah I would agree that since food doesn’t move right it causes bacteria issues for sure. When you say your food doesn’t move do you mean you don’t actually have bowel movements every day? People use the word gastroparesis a lot and I know the sensation of being full and not having a lot of food and stuff that moves, I get that, but I don’t fully understand it. I mean my stomach feels tight all the time like I don’t want to eat, but then yesterday I ate like a full plate of rice and three eggs, half a bag of tortilla chips and salsa, And then I ate a full plate of smoked ham. My stomach felt exactly the same afterwards. Just because I have this sensation of it being full it isn’t full and I had two ball movements this morning. So I don’t really know what’s going on but I get severe cramping and tightness everywhere. Eating does not seem to make me feel worse. It just feels bad randomly when it wants to , but I will say I have severe brain, fog and toxic feelings in my head that I did not have before my gut went crazy so I’m sure the bacteria is all going crazy down there. I feel like there is pressure inside my stomach and inside my gut at various places and it moves around. And sometimes I have no appetite or desire to eat, but it doesn’t seem to actually slow my food down. I mean, how do you tell that your food is slowing down, is it from constipation? Because I don’t get constipated I just feel horribly crampy. The worst part about this is I had no problem at all eating anything for two years until I change brand and stabilized. In fact, my digestion was better than it has been in a long time and I could eat a massive plate of food and I would feel fine right afterwards and then I would go to the bathroom the next day on queue. I still go to the bathroom every morning, sometimes it’s easier than others, but I never have to strain. I just can’t get the cramping and bloating to stop and the constant gas pressure. 

Yeah so my stomach isn’t emptying normally.you find that with gastric emptying test. It’s just sitting In my gut for 5-6 hours and causes a ton of discomfort and makes me have huge adrenaline/cortisol rushes prob cuz my body is freaking out sending out a bunch of stress hormones to try and digest my food. Mine is likely related to serotonin and started with ssri wirndrawal. Motility is largely serotonin mediated. Yours is different I’m not sure what GABA regulates in the gut but likely alot too. There are bacteria strains that help synthesize gaba 

[[mi...]]

@[Ma...] is your gastroparesis constant or do you have moments it let’s up or goes away. 

[[Ma...]]

It’s better at night usually. Which correlates with the fact that your stress hormones are lower at night.

im having interdose withdrawal so Iv been trying to move 1/2 my Ativan dose from 6:30 am an hour a day to get it in the evening. I am at 9 am for second dose only 2.5 hours later and having awful wirhdrawal symptoms like straight white knuckling it until my dose. I’m not going to be able to split it. Have you heard of anyone tapering off the whole time with interdose withdrawal? Im at .20 mg now. Idk what else to do other than updose a shitload and add a dose at like 2-4 pm. Which would negate all of my work the last 4 months 

[[mi...]]

I dose at 9pm only on Klonopin. I had a stretch a few months ago where I felt like I was starting to get intrados withdrawal, but then it went away and now I dumped. Most people on Klonopin I think due twice a day when they are tapering, but some can do once a day, but I have been successful doing it this way, and I don’t notice much variation throughout my day. I mean I do but it’s not correlated with dosing. It’s kind of just random. Plus, there’s no way I’m going to change my dosing around and stress my body out even more. Ativan is notorious for interdose wd. I had it so bad when I went inpatient, it was terrifying. But on Klonopin, it went away.  my sister tapered for an entire year of Ativan dosing once per day and was fine, but she wasn’t as sick as a lot of us are

[[Ma...]]

5 minutes ago, [[m...] said:

I dose at 9pm only on Klonopin. I had a stretch a few months ago where I felt like I was starting to get intrados withdrawal, but then it went away and now I dumped. Most people on Klonopin I think due twice a day when they are tapering, but some can do once a day, but I have been successful doing it this way, and I don’t notice much variation throughout my day. I mean I do but it’s not correlated with dosing. It’s kind of just random. Plus, there’s no way I’m going to change my dosing around and stress my body out even more. Ativan is notorious for interdose wd. I had it so bad when I went inpatient, it was terrifying. But on Klonopin, it went away.  my sister tapered for an entire year of Ativan dosing once per day and was fine, but she wasn’t as sick as a lot of us are

Do you think I should switch to 0.1 of klonopin at this point? I already take Lunesta at night. Idk if that would put my body through more hell because don’t you have to taper off one and onto other? 

[[Ma...]]

And it seems like to cut K that small you’d have to switch to a liquid to jump near like 0.03 or whatever Ashton recommends no? 

[[mi...]]

I can’t give advice because honestly I don’t know the answer for you. I know the fewer changes the better typically but sometimes you need to make a change. But honestly you have to ask your doctor that one. K has a longer half life but that doesn’t mean your body will like it. It’s your call with your doc. 

[[mi...]]

It is very difficult to get low on K with a dry cut but it is possible with the lab grade scale I got. Liquid is easiest to get off k with as are most benzos that are not Valium but I didn’t tolerate liquid. There are other methods of getting off k and a dry cutting and that is adding bulking agents to make it easier to crush and weigh. Lots on the tapering page. 

[[Ma...]]

Yeah my doctor doesn’t know shit. He told me to stop my ssri of 18 years in 1 week. Also told me to just stop 0.5 mg Ativan after 4 months of use. There’s no good psychs in my area. Part of me just wants to stop the ativsn and just deal with the withdrawals and be done with it instead of dragging out this suffering 

[[mi...]]

Yeah but you can cause long term damage shocking your cns like that. I think all of us would just stop it if it were that easy. But most people who called turkey end up reinstating. Some of the most protracted people I’ve ever read about cold turkey. We’re talking five years and longer. Not saying that people who taper don’t get that way also but there are very few good cold turkey stories.

[[Ma...]]

4 hours ago, [[m...] said:

Yeah but you can cause long term damage shocking your cns like that. I think all of us would just stop it if it were that easy. But most people who called turkey end up reinstating. Some of the most protracted people I’ve ever read about cold turkey. We’re talking five years and longer. Not saying that people who taper don’t get that way also but there are very few good cold turkey stories.

Well, I’m in protracted from SSRI withdrawal, and that was caused by cold turkey. So clearly I haven’t learned my lesson.

[[mi...]]

Yeah I'll never CT....I'll go down even if it's uncomfortable and then let the healing happen as long as it takes.

[[cc...]]

I can't imagine a less accurate method to taper than using weigh and cut/scrape. 1. It's not reliable on the weighing machine. 2. Even more important, the drug is NEVER dispersed evenly as I confirmed with pharmacist on this.

The high-fat milk seems to me as a good option. There is a write up of someone on BB figuring out how much mg to ml actually happens. The temperature that makes the dilution stronger or weaker (colder = weaker). Keeping the milk temperature consistent and then dispersing the pill, will give a very accurate measurement. It is a pain though to have to wait a few hours for disintegration while having the liquid warming but I'll find a solution.

I cannot see how the milk should degrade the klonopin medicinal effect just like Ora and VG wouldn't.

[[cc...]]

On 02/11/2023 at 18:07, [[M...] said:

Do you think water is inappropriate?  I’ve heard of people using milk which seems odd because there’s a chance you’ll have undissolved pieces you can’t see.  It’s a suspension, I get it, but I’m curious about the vortex.  I generally let it dissolve, gently stir it, and draw off the volume to discard.  

As I've seen from a BB post (seems like the guy knows what he's talking about), keeping the milk at 75-80 F, will do a better dissolve. Of course, you need to keep the same temp every time you dose.

[[mi...]]

@[cc...] sorry you feel this way. It’s the only way that works for me. Many have dry tapered down using this method and done well. Even those very sensitive to small changes do well. As far as the active ingredient being evenly disbursed, you can ask doctors and pharmacists and just about anyone and you will get different answers as to if that’s true. I’ve heard both answers from lots of experts. The fact is I notice changes dramatically with cuts so I’m fairly certain the pill is pretty darn uniform or else I’d be having massive swings in symptoms and with my scale and cutting I do not. There’s strengths and limitations to any method really though. 

[[Co...]]

10 hours ago, [[c...] said:

I can't imagine a less accurate method to taper than using weigh and cut/scrape. 1. It's not reliable on the weighing machine. 2. Even more important, the drug is NEVER dispersed evenly as I confirmed with pharmacist on this.

The high-fat milk seems to me as a good option. There is a write up of someone on BB figuring out how much mg to ml actually happens. The temperature that makes the dilution stronger or weaker (colder = weaker). Keeping the milk temperature consistent and then dispersing the pill, will give a very accurate measurement. It is a pain though to have to wait a few hours for disintegration while having the liquid warming but I'll find a solution.

I cannot see how the milk should degrade the klonopin medicinal effect just like Ora and VG wouldn't.

The key is to grind the medication into a fine powder, mix, and then measure using a reasonably good (electronic) balance. Yes, I think 'scraping' pills is likely to deliver very mixed results; probably akin to creating benzodiazepine liquids at home.

Using whole milk might well work better than water. But how much better? This is unknown. The better solution (no pun intended) is to talk with a pharmacist about using a commercial suspension agent. These will will provide better viscosity and offer a much, much better shelf-life compared with milk (or even water).

[[Co...]]

On 07/12/2023 at 00:53, [[c...] said:

As I've seen from a BB post (seems like the guy knows what he's talking about), keeping the milk at 75-80 F, will do a better dissolve. Of course, you need to keep the same temp every time you dose.

We do not know the solubility of benzodiazepines in water in a home setup. There has been some research using water and ethanol in professional labs, with controlled temperature and mixing. None of this applies to the home, and no research exists on using milk of course.

Some benzodiazepines are barely soluble in water and/or ethanol. Some benzos are, apparently, more soluble in fats, but I am unaware of any relevant research relating to this.

In the absence of research and a professional lab setup, I suggest the better way forward is to grind the pills into a fine powder and use a reasonably good set of scales, or use a commercial suspension agent. You cannot possibly hope to achieve reliable and knowable benzodiazepine milk solutions at home.

Hopefully @[Li...] will chime in here. She might have some comments about the potential use of (commercial) solution agents.

[[Co...]]

On 07/12/2023 at 05:45, [[m...] said:

@[cc...] sorry you feel this way. It’s the only way that works for me. Many have dry tapered down using this method and done well. Even those very sensitive to small changes do well. As far as the active ingredient being evenly disbursed, you can ask doctors and pharmacists and just about anyone and you will get different answers as to if that’s true. I’ve heard both answers from lots of experts. The fact is I notice changes dramatically with cuts so I’m fairly certain the pill is pretty darn uniform or else I’d be having massive swings in symptoms and with my scale and cutting I do not. There’s strengths and limitations to any method really though. 

I have to agree that using scales is a more reliable method. Anecdotally, we have (had) members follow liquid methods developed and promoted at another (now defunct) website who did very poorly. (And then blamed - and banned - at the website when they reported that it did not work for them). They would end up here looking for help and support.

@[cc...] I am glad that you have managed to get using milk work for you. But the anecdotal reports from members using milk or water is decidedly mixed at best. In short, if it works for you, keep doing it. I would not seek to discourage you from a method with which you are happy.

[[cc...]]

9 hours ago, [[C...] said:

The key is to grind the medication into a fine powder, mix, and then measure using a reasonably good (electronic) balance. Yes, I think 'scraping' pills is likely to deliver very mixed results; probably akin to creating benzodiazepine liquids at home.

Using whole milk might well work better than water. But how much better? This is unknown. The better solution (no pun intended) is to talk with a pharmacist about using a commercial suspension agent. These will will provide better viscosity and offer a much, much better shelf-life compared with milk (or even water).

Grinding: Using any receptacle for grinding or Mortar and pestle, would leave powder in the holder. Unless, using the tray that comes with the weight scale to bang with a little hammer to create the powder, followed by removing powder with a tiny spoon, followed by putting liquid in the tray and making sure to lick it clean.

Is this correct? Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[[An...]]

7 minutes ago, [[c...] said:

Grinding: Using any receptacle for grinding or Mortar and pestle, would leave powder in the holder. Unless, using the tray that comes with the weight scale to bang with a little hammer to create the powder, followed by removing powder with a tiny spoon, followed by putting liquid in the tray and making sure to lick it clean.

Is this correct? Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I was thinking the same thing. I am glad a straightforward dry taper is working for me. These DIY micro tapers (liquid or dry) would drive me batty worrying about accuracy.

[[cc...]]

4 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

I was thinking the same thing. I am glad a straightforward dry taper is working for me. These DIY micro tapers (liquid or dry) would drive me batty worrying about accuracy.

I do get your point, but maybe there's the added worrying that doesn't help. I'm working with a coach (David Powers), that has rumination as a stronger problem than the actual wd and taper symptoms.

Just saying that there are many more variations other than the method if tapering. I was doing simple weight cut and CONVINCED myself that responsible for my difficulty tapering is the cutting method. Was it cutting with a dispersion problem, or my brain worrying and ruminating. One intersting point: I'm doing better on .5*3 pills than on my 1.632 taper. It does say something OR my psyche analysed the situation and came to a conclusion, based on my understanding of dispersion, that I'll to better with .5 pills! I also added some more Seroquel as per my doc, so that could've mitigated the "possible" wd I'd have from the taper to 1.5 despite the brand chage and lower klonopin intake.

See this complexity and how the mind can drive one crazy, literally?

[[An...]]

16 minutes ago, [[c...] said:

I do get your point, but maybe there's the added worrying that doesn't help. I'm working with a coach (David Powers), that has rumination as a stronger problem than the actual wd and taper symptoms.

Just saying that there are many more variations other than the method if tapering. I was doing simple weight cut and CONVINCED myself that responsible for my difficulty tapering is the cutting method. Was it cutting with a dispersion problem, or my brain worrying and ruminating. One intersting point: I'm doing better on .5*3 pills than on my 1.632 taper. It does say something OR my psyche analysed the situation and came to a conclusion, based on my understanding of dispersion, that I'll to better with .5 pills! I also added some more Seroquel as per my doc, so that could've mitigated the "possible" wd I'd have from the taper to 1.5 despite the brand chage and lower klonopin intake.

See this complexity and how the mind can drive one crazy, literally?

Yep, I think you can worry yourself to death (metaphorically). I recall @[mi...] telling Chantal here she was making things worse due to paralysis analysis. No method is going to make getting off this stuff easy for most ppl. Tolerable to varying degrees is probably all one can hope for. I sometimes wonder with these DIY microtapers do ppl sometimes inadvertently updose when they think they are down-dosing?

Edited December 7, 2023 by [An...]
addition

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[c...] said:

Grinding: Using any receptacle for grinding or Mortar and pestle, would leave powder in the holder. Unless, using the tray that comes with the weight scale to bang with a little hammer to create the powder, followed by removing powder with a tiny spoon, followed by putting liquid in the tray and making sure to lick it clean.

Is this correct? Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

You are over-thinking it. There are very small mortar and pestles ideal for grinding pills, or actual pill crushers available from your pharmacist. It must be more accurate than 'shaving' pills, where the active ingredient will not be distributed evenly. Having said that, some members make shaving the pill work for them. I think home-made liquids in water or milk are probably the least reliable. But some members make those work too.

[[Co...]]

58 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

I was thinking the same thing. I am glad a straightforward dry taper is working for me. These DIY micro tapers (liquid or dry) would drive me batty worrying about accuracy.

Standard pill-splitting works for most people. And as you say, it saves a lot of unnecessary worry and aggravation.

[[cc...]]

44 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

You are over-thinking it. There are very small mortar and pestles ideal for grinding pills, or actual pill crushers available from your pharmacist. It must be more accurate than 'shaving' pills, where the active ingredient will not be distributed evenly. Having said that, some members make shaving the pill work for them. I think home-made liquids in water or milk are probably the least reliable. But some members make those work too.

Would a updose be as bad as downdose? With updose you're on safer ground, not correct?