Expensive Scale for Dry Microtapering

[[Ma...]]

20 minutes ago, [[m...] said:

Yeah, difference between .21 and .22 is like almost 5% so any given day you are swinging back and forth that amount, and that's assuming your scale is even accurate that day. My scale goes so accurate. Im at .161mg of K which in pill weight is .0562g, tonight i'm microtapering to .0561 which is like a 0.19% drop

Good luck!! I hope the one I get is accurate too or at least any better than what I’m doing now 

[[Co...]]

Just a note to suggest that getting too tied up in the precise dose can be counterproductive (obsessiveness). And to put this into perspective, the precise dose of each pill varies by a few percent or more, the food we ingest can affect blood levels, differences in the time we might take a dose will result in variation in blood levels, and blood levels cycle over the day (interdose withdrawal).

Additionally, at lower doses, our GABA system has retuned more to normal functioning, so our benzodiazepine (or z-drug) intake forms a smaller part of the picture, making variations in dose less critical.

Further, longer half-life benzodiazepines tend to protect against all the factors I mentioned above which cause variation in blood levels.

In short, by all means aim for accuracy and consistency, but try to avoid getting too hung up on it.

[[mi...]]

In theory I agree but I also get massive reactions to 1-2% cuts within a day, so variations matter dramatically to me. We are all different.

[[Ma...]]

18 hours ago, [[m...] said:

I love the scale and it’s so accurate but I’m not stable and haven’t been in months. I’ve been using it for a week. I’m not sure if it’s going to make a difference or not at this point as I don’t know if accuracy is the issue or something else. I feel so sick it’s not even funny. Mentally I don’t know who I am and my gut hurts so bad that it makes my head spin. I tried a new brand when my old brand was backordered and it put my system into overdrive and caused a major setback. After six weeks I tried compounded liquid k and crashed even worse and haven’t recovered. I went back to my original pills but the damage was done. I have the most insane GI pain and benzo belly and my moods and emotions are all over the place. Scary is an understatement. But yes a scale is a must with lower doses with drugs like ours. 

When you say your gut hurts what do you mean? I’m having a really really hard time eating. I get full so fast, then tons of pain and then I get panic/terror attacks after eating. 

[[mi...]]

I feel like the nerves are all turned on high, i feel every gurgle, pain, twinge and it makes my anxiety go through the roof. I am distended, bloated, crampy all the time. I can eat most of the time, but my appetite fluctuates. I generally go to the bathroom normal but not always. I just feel like there is always clenching and discomfort inside me. It's miserable x1000

[[Co...]]

In response to a PM received, I have quoted my previous post (with added emphasis). It is not my aim to discourage people from following a high accuracy protocol when they feel they benefit from it. My aim was (and is) to inject a level of realism in what can be realistically expected.

On 30/10/2023 at 08:37, [[C...] said:

Just a note to suggest that getting too tied up in the precise dose can be counterproductive (obsessiveness). And to put this into perspective, the precise dose of each pill varies by a few percent or more, the food we ingest can affect blood levels, differences in the time we might take a dose will result in variation in blood levels, and blood levels cycle over the day (interdose withdrawal).

Additionally, at lower doses, our GABA system has retuned more to normal functioning, so our benzodiazepine (or z-drug) intake forms a smaller part of the picture, making variations in dose less critical.

Further, longer half-life benzodiazepines tend to protect against all the factors I mentioned above which cause variation in blood levels.

In short, by all means aim for accuracy and consistency, but try to avoid getting too hung up on it. 

The reality is, because of the reasons I explained in my original post, the benefits of aiming for high accuracy in dose will be of limited benefit - this does not mean there is no benefit. And I suggest, for some, the downsides - if they become obsessive about it - might outweigh any possible benefits.

If you feel that you benefit from aiming for high accuracy, then continue to do this. But if you feel frustrated with the process, and especially when taking a longer half-life benzodiazepine, perhaps following a 'micro titration' protocol is not the best option for you.

Many of you are probably unaware that a few years ago there was someone who heavily promoted 'micro titration' as some kind of panacea, where 'a symptom-free withdrawal is guaranteed'. She would counsel people privately, and would ban members from her support forum who reported any problems when following her protocols (we know because they often subsequently turned up at BB for support). The core problem was that 'a symptom-free withdrawal protocol' is mythical, and the disappointment and hurt caused to her followers caused real harm. (That, and her habit of counselling people privately, which avoids scrutiny).

As most of you understand, we do not allow private withdrawal and taper support via the Private Messaging system. This also applies to members of the team. The use of PMs does not allow for scrutiny. Take for example the reasons for me posting these comments: if I had instead provided my previous post privately to a member, there would have been no opportunity for another member to raise their concerns (that I might be discouraging members who feel benefit from following 'micro taper' protocols). So, now, I can clarify. This is how it should be at a peer-support community.

I also wish to make clear that (outside of actual rules and policies), my comments are purely my opinions. I might make them forcefully where I feel strongly about they subject matter, but they remain my opinions. This means that my words - at a discussion forum - are fair game for other members to dissect and critique. If someone tells you that they have 'the answer' when it comes to be benzodiazepine withdrawal, they almost certainty do not. And no one has all the the answers - there is no panacea.

Back to titration: using a good scale is probably a more reliable method for making small cuts to dose than homemade liquids. The use of ethanol, water or milk, can be very unreliable - to the point where normal pill-splitting is a more accurate method - but some people make homemade liquids work. The best route when using liquid is to have a doctor prescribe a commercial liquid benzodiazepine. Failing this, a prescription for a compounded liquid. The third best option (but much better than water/ethanol/milk) is to talk to a pharmacist for advice about an across-the-counter suspension medium for creating liquids at home.

Accuracy when following a dry 'micro taper' method will vary. The accuracy and resolution of the scale are important. But so are the methods employed by the individual. Some people will be more successful than others due to possessing better home-lab skills. Do not assume that your method is meticulous; or that others are as capable as you in recreating your accuracy. But by following a good method, with reasonably good equipment, you should be reasonably assured of obtaining reasonably accurate results, which will allow you to make considerably smaller cuts than by usual pill-splitting.

If any of you have any questions or critiques, I'd love to read them here.

[[Ma...]]

I tend to agree with @[Co...] about the dosing.  I’ve started a water taper and remove a mL every day.  I have 126 days to go.  Is there a chance that on any given day I’ll be taking the same or even a slightly higher dose one day to the next?  Absolutely.  I’m using syringes to draw off 1 mL more every day, into which I’ve dissolved a pill that needs to be suspended and contains fillers, each pill being slightly different by up to 5%.  Then it has to be absorbed into my gut which depends on what’s in my stomach, how hydrated I am, etc.  There is NO WAY to be 100% or even much more than 95% accurate about the amount of drug reaching your brain with any of these methods.  I think the damage done by doing extremely long holds and trying to figure out a stable dose is much greater than that of having a process to taper and just sticking to it and trusting the process.  There at some point becomes an obsessive component to this.  One reason i switched to a water taper was because I needed to see the light at the end of the tunnel and know that i was making progress.  Even if i feel like crap on a given day, i know I’ve tapered off a little bit more that day which makes it tolerable.  While it’s possible to taper too quickly and end up with worse WD, even the slowest taper in the world is not going to be without WD and it’s prolonging the time this poison is messing up our receptors.  At some point we all need to be off these meds to allow the real healing to begin. 

[[mi...]]

I agree to a point, and i didn't notice much when i was stable in terms of fluctuations. But now I'm at the point where i feel everything, every change, no matter how small. But an interesting thing, a year or so ago i tried taking my dose that i cut but i put it in a capsule to make it easier to take, and the next day i felt extremely off. I've read of others who have done the same. I've even taken my dose 4 hours late one time and felt sick for like 3 days mentally. And this is when I was stable. I think that some people really are THAT sensitive to subtleties. Can we remove all of the imperfections in the process, no. Again, I was doing 3.5%/mo cuts until i crashed and i know my cheap $20 scale was inacurate but it worked because it all evened out over time. Now I'm extremely unstable and sensitized and the last few 1.85% cuts I did put me into a week of agitation where my wife couldn't calm me down. Exact same pattern every time. One thing I have noticed is that people here give advice/opinions mainly based on their own experience. If someone has cold turkeyed and eventually heal they tell people it can be done even if it isn't recommended. If someone struggles constantly and can't ever really stabilize, they tell people not to expect to stabilize. If someone can handle big cuts they tell people small differences don't matter. I see it in the moderators also, their advice largely mirrors their experience. I have had sensitivities to small brand changes even in things like vitamins over the years before benzos. I am that sensitive. Is it obsessive, of course it is. It's terrifying making a small brand change and being thrown into acute and losing 7 lbs in 5 days and sweating through my clothes as a result. Makes absolutely no sense. It's terrifying updosing by 2% and shaking violently and coming out of my skin with agitation. My brain is on fire. Not everyone's is. Everyone's story is different I suppose.

[[Ma...]]

26 minutes ago, [[m...] said:

I agree to a point, and i didn't notice much when i was stable in terms of fluctuations. But now I'm at the point where i feel everything, every change, no matter how small. But an interesting thing, a year or so ago i tried taking my dose that i cut but i put it in a capsule to make it easier to take, and the next day i felt extremely off. I've read of others who have done the same. I've even taken my dose 4 hours late one time and felt sick for like 3 days mentally. And this is when I was stable. I think that some people really are THAT sensitive to subtleties. Can we remove all of the imperfections in the process, no. Again, I was doing 3.5%/mo cuts until i crashed and i know my cheap $20 scale was inacurate but it worked because it all evened out over time. Now I'm extremely unstable and sensitized and the last few 1.85% cuts I did put me into a week of agitation where my wife couldn't calm me down. Exact same pattern every time. One thing I have noticed is that people here give advice/opinions mainly based on their own experience. If someone has cold turkeyed and eventually heal they tell people it can be done even if it isn't recommended. If someone struggles constantly and can't ever really stabilize, they tell people not to expect to stabilize. If someone can handle big cuts they tell people small differences don't matter. I see it in the moderators also, their advice largely mirrors their experience. I have had sensitivities to small brand changes even in things like vitamins over the years before benzos. I am that sensitive. Is it obsessive, of course it is. It's terrifying making a small brand change and being thrown into acute and losing 7 lbs in 5 days and sweating through my clothes as a result. Makes absolutely no sense. It's terrifying updosing by 2% and shaking violently and coming out of my skin with agitation. My brain is on fire. Not everyone's is. Everyone's story is different I suppose.

This is legit me. Drop 1% and die for 15 days. And get back to my unstabilized baseline. Can’t tolerate fish oil, b vitamins, tea, food anything anymore I’m so sensitized to my own damn natural hormones. I wake up like someone shot me with 6 epipens. I have dysautonomia from all this too. In my opinion, I have been holding 5-6 months and I’m not getting better so I keep cutting and white knuckling it wishing it would kill me pretty much all day.. unfortunately it won’t. We’ll get through this 🤍

[[mi...]]

Yup, and when people say the variations don't matter much like it's gospel it drives me nuts. I don't think the pills are as inconsistent as people think. They make them in large batches, they don't make each pill one by one. So .0562g of pill weight should be just about the same across the board in terms of drug. And I say this because I know when i make a 1% cut, so if there was more than a 1% variation in these drugs i'd know that. My body feels everything. But of course people who don't have that sensitivity won't agree. 

[[mi...]]

People also say you don't heal until you get off, which i agree, but can you stabilize before you get off? Chris Paige seems to think so. I mean our bodies hate the drug after awhile, but is there a change that just doing nothing for awhile allows sensitivity to abate even a little? I am microtapering off .162mg K right now. I feel sick no matter what I do. At this rate I'll be tapering 5 years or more, in this state. That doesn't seem possible. The worst symptom I have that is keeping me from functioning is severe benzo belly. The cramping is so intense, so debilitating, that it literally alters my brain. It's like when it relaxes and I pass gas and the bloating settles, my brain relaxes and my normal thoughts start to return. I don't get it, but without this symptom I wouldn't be so panicked about everything. That being said, I do have more symptoms than just the gut. I just don't know how to heal. Cutting through this isn't really an option but the longer i hold the sicker I get. This is all just so stupid. I am getting some decent windows lately, they last a day or a partial day here and there. But I never feel good, just less crappy. I still can't believe I was completely stable tapering for 18 months until early June. I was working full time and travelling and eating out. Life was very normal and we were about to embark on a 3 week road trip with a full agenda. That fell apart in a hurry. And now each day I'm in the same state of mind as you. Hoping the world ends each day but waking up realizing unfortunately it hasn't. If I can stabilize and my gut can stop freaking out I can live with feeling sort of crappy. I've done that a lot in life with other health stuff. But I'm beyond the point where I can handle how I feel, it's too much, daily, for 4-5 months now. I wondered if this was just a wave/setback, but now it feels like a new norm. Not sure what to expect. I'm so sensitized due to brand switches it just won't settle and my CNS is sensitive and pissed at everything. I was doing 3.5% cuts every two weeks and functioning well through them. Now I can't function even holding.

[[Ma...]]

18 hours ago, [[m...] said:

People also say you don't heal until you get off, which i agree, but can you stabilize before you get off? Chris Paige seems to think so. I mean our bodies hate the drug after awhile, but is there a change that just doing nothing for awhile allows sensitivity to abate even a little? I am microtapering off .162mg K right now. I feel sick no matter what I do. At this rate I'll be tapering 5 years or more, in this state. That doesn't seem possible. The worst symptom I have that is keeping me from functioning is severe benzo belly. The cramping is so intense, so debilitating, that it literally alters my brain. It's like when it relaxes and I pass gas and the bloating settles, my brain relaxes and my normal thoughts start to return. I don't get it, but without this symptom I wouldn't be so panicked about everything. That being said, I do have more symptoms than just the gut. I just don't know how to heal. Cutting through this isn't really an option but the longer i hold the sicker I get. This is all just so stupid. I am getting some decent windows lately, they last a day or a partial day here and there. But I never feel good, just less crappy. I still can't believe I was completely stable tapering for 18 months until early June. I was working full time and travelling and eating out. Life was very normal and we were about to embark on a 3 week road trip with a full agenda. That fell apart in a hurry. And now each day I'm in the same state of mind as you. Hoping the world ends each day but waking up realizing unfortunately it hasn't. If I can stabilize and my gut can stop freaking out I can live with feeling sort of crappy. I've done that a lot in life with other health stuff. But I'm beyond the point where I can handle how I feel, it's too much, daily, for 4-5 months now. I wondered if this was just a wave/setback, but now it feels like a new norm. Not sure what to expect. I'm so sensitized due to brand switches it just won't settle and my CNS is sensitive and pissed at everything. I was doing 3.5% cuts every two weeks and functioning well through them. Now I can't function even holding.

I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I guess it didn’t save. Chris took three years to stabilize, and he never went back on benzos. He went on other medication I think like seroquel or something. I talked to him and Angie. I think it’s just everybody’s opinion I don’t think anybody knows. If people could not stabilize on medication, then what is the point of a taper. That is the correct way to come off of medication and supposedly you were supposed to taper and try to stay at stable as possible. Some people’s tapers take years. So that would make no sense if it was impossible for people to stabilize on medication. I think what happens is sometimes the nervous system becomes destabilized, and nobody knows how long that will take to fix. The problem for us is that we are stuck in withdrawal and are not stabilizing. It could take us years or I don’t know I’m sure it would happen eventually, but I certainly don’t have years to be off of work so that I will be literally living under a bridge. I wish I could read the future and know when we would be better but unfortunately that is impossible. I am finding that I literally just have to put 1 foot in front of the other every day even though I feel like complete fucking ass.

[[Ma...]]

By the way, my pharmacy is literally switching the brand every single month. They said that Ativan there is a shortage of right now, so they are just ordering whatever they can get. I told him they’re literally making it impossible for me to taper off because it takes me a while to get used to the new brand. I’m just thinking imagine if they just literally run out. All the reason to keep tapering off of that shit.

[[Co...]]

On 31/10/2023 at 17:26, [[M...] said:

I tend to agree with @[Co...] about the dosing.  I’ve started a water taper and remove a mL every day.  I have 126 days to go.  Is there a chance that on any given day I’ll be taking the same or even a slightly higher dose one day to the next?  Absolutely.  I’m using syringes to draw off 1 mL more every day, into which I’ve dissolved a pill that needs to be suspended and contains fillers, each pill being slightly different by up to 5%.

We have some figures somewhere, but from memory, I do not recall clonazepam being particularly soluble in water. So, what you are attempting is a suspension, but water is very poor suspension medium for benzodiazepines. It helps to agitate your 'solution' immediately before you draw off your dose, but do not swirl it, as this will create a concentration gradient in the vortex.

On 31/10/2023 at 17:26, [[M...] said:

Then it has to be absorbed into my gut which depends on what’s in my stomach, how hydrated I am, etc.  There is NO WAY to be 100% or even much more than 95% accurate about the amount of drug reaching your brain with any of these methods.

If you have food in your stomach or not will likely make some difference. I am less certain about how hydrated you are at the time. What will help a lot is consistency - take the medication with food, or well away from the consumption of food, but do not mix them. (Particularly the same dose of the day across different days). I suggest that consistency is key!

On 31/10/2023 at 17:26, [[M...] said:

I think the damage done by doing extremely long holds and trying to figure out a stable dose is much greater than that of having a process to taper and just sticking to it and trusting the process.  There at some point becomes an obsessive component to this.

Withdrawal from benzodiazepines is often tough. Taking enough time between cuts / allowing for a sensible taper can help greatly. But holding at a dose for a very extended period waiting for relief usually results in no relief and just unnecessarily extends the withdrawal and time for eventual recovery. Sometimes we have to accept that it is difficult and getting off is when is when we properly begin to recover. I know Prof. Ashton was against holding out for a long time in the expectation of feeling better before continuing with the taper.

On 31/10/2023 at 17:26, [[M...] said:

One reason i switched to a water taper was because I needed to see the light at the end of the tunnel and know that i was making progress.  Even if i feel like crap on a given day, i know I’ve tapered off a little bit more that day which makes it tolerable.

I think this is largely true. Sometimes the best option is continue forward.

On 31/10/2023 at 17:26, [[M...] said:

While it’s possible to taper too quickly and end up with worse WD, even the slowest taper in the world is not going to be without WD and it’s prolonging the time this poison is messing up our receptors.  At some point we all need to be off these meds to allow the real healing to begin. 

Yes, we can taper too quickly. There is a balance to be struck, and it is for the individual to decide how best to proceed. I just caution against very long holds - if there is no relief, it is not likely to come. So getting on with it is the only way forward.

I am not suggesting that members should get off, no matter the cost. But if the aim is to complete a withdrawal from benzodiazepines - sans unexpected life events and problems - long holds can be counterproductive.

[[Co...]]

On 31/10/2023 at 21:59, [[m...] said:

I agree to a point, and i didn't notice much when i was stable in terms of fluctuations. But now I'm at the point where i feel everything, every change, no matter how small. But an interesting thing, a year or so ago i tried taking my dose that i cut but i put it in a capsule to make it easier to take, and the next day i felt extremely off. I've read of others who have done the same.

Any changes we make to our medicine - even just splitting the pill in half - will change its pharmacokinetic properties. I would expect that powdered benzodiazepine tablets will be rapidly absorbed compared with the powder being placed within a capsule.

On 31/10/2023 at 21:59, [[m...] said:

I've even taken my dose 4 hours late one time and felt sick for like 3 days mentally. And this is when I was stable. I think that some people really are THAT sensitive to subtleties.

Yes. If you take your clonazepam four hours later, your blood levels will dip lower. And since you later dose will be four hours closer than usual to your following dose, they will peak a little higher when you take that dose. Everything we do to keep things consistent can only help. But sometimes these small things which might help are more theoretical in nature. And we need to live our lives too. So, do what you can in ways which might help, but try not to get so hung up on it that it causes you major difficulties in your everyday life.

On 31/10/2023 at 21:59, [[m...] said:

Can we remove all of the imperfections in the process, no. Again, I was doing 3.5%/mo cuts until i crashed and i know my cheap $20 scale was inacurate but it worked because it all evened out over time. Now I'm extremely unstable and sensitized and the last few 1.85% cuts I did put me into a week of agitation where my wife couldn't calm me down. Exact same pattern every time. One thing I have noticed is that people here give advice/opinions mainly based on their own experience.

Not necessarily. But it is inevitable that some (or much) of this occurs. And it can be very unhelpful. This is why we require members to reference sources or make clear that they are talking about personal experiences. But as members become more familiar with the available literature and the experiences of others, they become better at offering more general guidance and a range of options. There is huge variability in how individuals react to benzodiazepine use and withdrawal - personal experiences often do not translate to others going through a similar journey.

On 31/10/2023 at 21:59, [[m...] said:

If someone has cold turkeyed and eventually heal they tell people it can be done even if it isn't recommended. If someone struggles constantly and can't ever really stabilize, they tell people not to expect to stabilize. If someone can handle big cuts they tell people small differences don't matter. I see it in the moderators also, their advice largely mirrors their experience.

The team try to talking generalities and offer a range of options. Or, will make clear that they they are relaying their personal experiences. I don't suppose that we always get it right, but we try, and try to lead by example. For what it is worth, we do discuss amongst ourselves when we feel one of us did not get something right, try to learn from it (as a group) and make corrections where appropriate.

And we do not always agree of course - when we are relaying personal experiences, we should expect variation.

If ever you feel that one of the team has made a factual error or employed the wrong tone, you can contact us via PM of the Contact forum, or even post to the thread concerned if you feel it appropriate. None of us have all the answers, and this is a peer support community after all.

On 31/10/2023 at 21:59, [[m...] said:

I have had sensitivities to small brand changes even in things like vitamins over the years before benzos. I am that sensitive. Is it obsessive, of course it is. It's terrifying making a small brand change and being thrown into acute and losing 7 lbs in 5 days and sweating through my clothes as a result. Makes absolutely no sense. It's terrifying updosing by 2% and shaking violently and coming out of my skin with agitation. My brain is on fire. Not everyone's is. Everyone's story is different I suppose.

Changing brands can be disruptive. Some formulations are quite different in their pharmacokinetic profile. This is probably a fairly important point where consistency is of importance. But probably not as important as consistency and a well executed home modification to our medicine. The more we alter our medicine, the greater the implied risk.

[[Co...]]

On 31/10/2023 at 22:27, [[M...] said:

This is legit me. Drop 1% and die for 15 days. And get back to my unstabilized baseline. Can’t tolerate fish oil, b vitamins, tea, food anything anymore I’m so sensitized to my own damn natural hormones. I wake up like someone shot me with 6 epipens. I have dysautonomia from all this too. In my opinion, I have been holding 5-6 months and I’m not getting better so I keep cutting and white knuckling it wishing it would kill me pretty much all day.. unfortunately it won’t. We’ll get through this 🤍

It is an unfortunate realty for many here. I too suffered a terrible withdrawal, and it took me some months before I became even remotely functional. But I got there and continued to recover over the following months and years.

[[Co...]]

On 31/10/2023 at 22:51, [[m...] said:

Yup, and when people say the variations don't matter much like it's gospel it drives me nuts. I don't think the pills are as inconsistent as people think. They make them in large batches, they don't make each pill one by one. So .0562g of pill weight should be just about the same across the board in terms of drug. And I say this because I know when i make a 1% cut, so if there was more than a 1% variation in these drugs i'd know that. My body feels everything. But of course people who don't have that sensitivity won't agree. 

I would not suggest that variations do not matter. I think they matter very much. The only thing I suggest is that focussing (obsessing) on tiny variations when there are daily larger variations is probably counterproductive. Do what you can to keep things consistent. But try  - as best as you can - to do normal things too and accept the difficulties. It helps to keep us sane during the process.

[[Co...]]

On 31/10/2023 at 22:59, [[m...] said:

People also say you don't heal until you get off, which i agree, but can you stabilize before you get off? Chris Paige seems to think so. I mean our bodies hate the drug after awhile, but is there a change that just doing nothing for awhile allows sensitivity to abate even a little? I am microtapering off .162mg K right now.

Yes. For the most part, people around here to end to use 'stabilise' to describe feeling reasonably recovered from a previous cut before proceeding with the next. During withdrawal, it is - for most of us - unrealistic to expect to feel great before our next cut. Yes, if we hold out long enough, some might feel pretty good. But if this exptends the process by many years, what's the point? Further, quite often, benzodiazepines just stop being effective for us, even if we have stabilized our dose for an extended period, or even in cases of increasing the dose.

On 31/10/2023 at 22:59, [[m...] said:

I feel sick no matter what I do. At this rate I'll be tapering 5 years or more, in this state. That doesn't seem possible.

The prospect of feeling this way for that amount of time is understandably daunting. Have you tried speeding up your taper? If so, did you feel appreciably worse? We are different people, and our circumstances are likely very different. But I followed a six-month taper - it was awful. And it took a few months before I could function at basic level. From there, I slowly improved over months and even years. But the worst period was during taper and the first few months after that.

On 31/10/2023 at 22:59, [[m...] said:

The worst symptom I have that is keeping me from functioning is severe benzo belly. The cramping is so intense, so debilitating, that it literally alters my brain. It's like when it relaxes and I pass gas and the bloating settles, my brain relaxes and my normal thoughts start to return. I don't get it, but without this symptom I wouldn't be so panicked about everything. That being said, I do have more symptoms than just the gut. I just don't know how to heal. Cutting through this isn't really an option but the longer i hold the sicker I get. This is all just so stupid. I am getting some decent windows lately, they last a day or a partial day here and there. But I never feel good, just less crappy. I still can't believe I was completely stable tapering for 18 months until early June. I was working full time and travelling and eating out. Life was very normal and we were about to embark on a 3 week road trip with a full agenda. That fell apart in a hurry. And now each day I'm in the same state of mind as you. Hoping the world ends each day but waking up realizing unfortunately it hasn't. If I can stabilize and my gut can stop freaking out I can live with feeling sort of crappy. I've done that a lot in life with other health stuff. But I'm beyond the point where I can handle how I feel, it's too much, daily, for 4-5 months now. I wondered if this was just a wave/setback, but now it feels like a new norm. Not sure what to expect. I'm so sensitized due to brand switches it just won't settle and my CNS is sensitive and pissed at everything. I was doing 3.5% cuts every two weeks and functioning well through them. Now I can't function even holding.

If your life circumstances at this time do not allow for a taper, you might stop tapering until circumstances improve. I am concerned for you and your plan to be going through this for five years. And, when things improve, taper at a more accelerated rate. These are just some ideas and suggestions - I do not mean to imply this is what you should do.

[[Co...]]

23 hours ago, [[M...] said:

By the way, my pharmacy is literally switching the brand every single month. They said that Ativan there is a shortage of right now, so they are just ordering whatever they can get. I told him they’re literally making it impossible for me to taper off because it takes me a while to get used to the new brand. I’m just thinking imagine if they just literally run out. All the reason to keep tapering off of that shit.

Yeah. That's not helpful. I expect that it probably makes little difference in most cases, but it might be significant in some cases. Medicines (across brands) should vary only within limits. But true doses are generally not that tightly controlled, and pharmacokinetics can vary too. Hopefully the supply problem will be resolved soon.

[[Co...]]

2 hours ago, [[C...] said:

Any changes we make to our medicine - even just splitting the pill in half - will change its pharmacokinetic properties. I would expect that powdered benzodiazepine tablets will be rapidly absorbed compared with the powder being placed within a capsule.

Thinking about this some more, there should be little difference. Powdered benzodiazepine tablets will be more rapidly absorbed than the original tablets. But I expect the only difference between the powder and the capsule is there is a very slight delay while the capsule dissolves and the powder is released to the stomach.

[[mi...]]

I don’t crush mine, I leave it in tablet form. I just file it to the right weight. I store it in a capsule in case pieces flake off in my pill holder but when I take it I open the capsule and dump it in my mouth since I felt a significant difference when I tried taking it inside the capsule once. @[he...] had mentioned he had a rough time encapsulating shaved pills once also and it threw him off. It’s a real thing for some of us sensitive ones. 

[[he...]]

@[mi...] I haven't been on here in over a week, and I just happened to jump in, and you mentioned me less than a minute later. That's so weird! Haha.

This is true about encapsulating. It did not help that I was on a calcium-channel blocker, which raised the serum level of my clonazepam in a time-dependent fashion, so any change in the rate of absorption of the benzo (like crushing to a powder or doing liquid) just didn't work for me. It does work for many.

[[Ma...]]

6 hours ago, [[C...] said:

We have some figures somewhere, but from memory, I do not recall clonazepam being particularly soluble in water. So, what you are attempting is a suspension, but water is very poor suspension medium for benzodiazepines. It helps to agitate your 'solution' immediately before you draw off your dose, but do not swirl it, as this will create a concentration gradient in the vortex.

Do you think water is inappropriate?  I’ve heard of people using milk which seems odd because there’s a chance you’ll have undissolved pieces you can’t see.  It’s a suspension, I get it, but I’m curious about the vortex.  I generally let it dissolve, gently stir it, and draw off the volume to discard.  

[[mi...]]

@[he...] not on for a week is a good sign. It means you’re out living life and not in a panic. Good for you!

[[Co...]]

14 hours ago, [[M...] said:

Do you think water is inappropriate?  I’ve heard of people using milk which seems odd because there’s a chance you’ll have undissolved pieces you can’t see.  It’s a suspension, I get it, but I’m curious about the vortex.  I generally let it dissolve, gently stir it, and draw off the volume to discard.  

I would not use the word 'inappropriate'. But it might not be very effective. Some benzodiazepines are (somewhat) soluble in water, while other benzos are more soluble in ethanol, and yet others in fats (which is why milk is sometimes used). But how soluble is not properly resolved, and since none of us ordinarily can access pure benzodiazepine powder, we need to grind up pills with all their incipient ingredients. And those other ingredients will probably negatively affect solubility, but to what degree is anyone's guess. For these reasons, we should be thinking more about suspensions. These, generally, will be more reliable. But neither water, nor ethanol are good suspension agents. Some fats might be more effect suspension mediums, but depending on the fat and quantity, they might have other drawbacks. And if using something like vodka, this contains water and ethanol, and other ingredients. We cannot know the solubility of benzodiazepines in something like that.

I'll dig up some information about which of those three liquids might be the better liquid to use with particular benzodiazepines for solutions. But, again, results will vary. And there will be differences between theory and practice (few to none of us have a home lab; we do not have access to pure benzodiazepines, water or ethanol; we are not practiced in laboratory methods).

There are far better options for suspension agents, generally available at the pharmacy across-the-counter.