Xanax tapering

[[Pa...]]

It sure seems like the Valium has made things worse for you, hopefully you can make a reduction and get off of it soon.  I agree that crossing to Klonopin won’t be to your advantage. 

[[Je...]]

Thanks Pam. Actually my Dr wants to go from 4mg down to 3mg this Monday. Which I suppose won't be to terrible. When I started the Valium on October 17 it was 5mg. Than dropped down to 4mg on the 25th. So made a quick 1mg drop. It was terrible. But last 2 days I have had some improvement.  And kept working these past few weeks. I was a short user of the original Xanax, on 5 1/2 weeks. 1/2 mg daily. So definitely not taking it very long. I suppose the sooner I get off this crap the better. Any thoughts? Thanks

[[VI...]]

3 hours ago, [[J...] said:

Thanks Pam. Actually my Dr wants to go from 4mg down to 3mg this Monday. Which I suppose won't be to terrible. When I started the Valium on October 17 it was 5mg. Than dropped down to 4mg on the 25th. So made a quick 1mg drop. It was terrible. But last 2 days I have had some improvement.  And kept working these past few weeks. I was a short user of the original Xanax, on 5 1/2 weeks. 1/2 mg daily. So definitely not taking it very long. I suppose the sooner I get off this crap the better. Any thoughts? Thanks

I think it wouldn't be pretty. 25% drop you are certainly going to feel. especially if you're not stable at the current dose. if you do end up stable enough by Monday, then that's a different story. I see what your dr is trying to do, and isn't necessarily wrong, but they didn't do the loading doses, and they underdosed you this whole time.... so I dont understand why they wont let you stabilize first, then start dropping? That's what I don't get. But then again, I do- USA DOCTORS. Thats why. 

[[Co...]]

8 hours ago, [[V...] said:

I think it wouldn't be pretty. 25% drop you are certainly going to feel.

It is important to remember that because of Valium's relatively long half-life value, that 25% drop is gradual, occurring over many days or week or more. And although the bulk of the change occurs within the first couple of weeks, it generally takes a few weeks for the drop in dose to be fully reflected in blood levels.

[[Je...]]

Well. I don't look forward to any withdrawl symptoms.  I remember a year ago when I tapered off of Opiates, 60 to 70 mg daily,  around 35mg was Oxycodone,  and been on if for 5 1/2  years, I tapered myself for 4 1/2 months and felt withdrawal through it, still worked ever day. And when finally jumped still had even worse withdrawls for around 6 weeks, but eventually went away. I was only on the Xanax for 5 1/2 weeks,  so and now on the Valium for 3 1/2 weeks, I don't want to drag this out for 5 or 6 more months, at the same time I don't look forward to tapering to fast, but the longer I am on it since being a short time user I suppose the worse that could be. Any thoughts?

[[Je...]]

Hello Colin. Sorry to bother you. You made a comment about dropping 25% of my Valium and how long it takes for the effects of the drop. I am now on 4 mg and my Doctor wants to drop to 3 on Monday. This is not that bad is it? I was only on Xanax for around 5 weeks from my regular Dr. Psychiatrist took me off that and put me in the 5mg Valium on October 17th, than dropped me to 4 on the 25th. Now after 2 1/2 weeks wants to drop Monday to 3. So I have not been on the Benzos very long. I think she would like me off of it ASAP. But I also have taken Ambien 12.5 mg for 10 months. And she said we will tackle that after getting off the direct benzo. I know Pam even mentioned only taper one at a time. And getting off the Xanax/Valium should be first. This sound right? Thanks. Jerry 

[[An...]]

26 minutes ago, [[J...] said:

Hello Colin. Sorry to bother you. You made a comment about dropping 25% of my Valium and how long it takes for the effects of the drop. I am now on 4 mg and my Doctor wants to drop to 3 on Monday. This is not that bad is it? I was only on Xanax for around 5 weeks from my regular Dr. Psychiatrist took me off that and put me in the 5mg Valium on October 17th, than dropped me to 4 on the 25th. Now after 2 1/2 weeks wants to drop Monday to 3. So I have not been on the Benzos very long. I think she would like me off of it ASAP. But I also have taken Ambien 12.5 mg for 10 months. And she said we will tackle that after getting off the direct benzo. I know Pam even mentioned only taper one at a time. And getting off the Xanax/Valium should be first. This sound right? Thanks. Jerry 

So, you were on the Ambien prior to starting the Xanax? Is that correct? How were you feeling on the Ambien alone? Altho ambien is not a benzo, both benzodiazepines and Ambien are thought to enhance the effects of the neurotransmitter in the brain called GABA. The w/d from the Z-drugs are similar to benzos. I think you may have some tolerance issues going on from the ambien too.

 

[[Co...]]

43 minutes ago, [[J...] said:

Hello Colin. Sorry to bother you. You made a comment about dropping 25% of my Valium and how long it takes for the effects of the drop. I am now on 4 mg and my Doctor wants to drop to 3 on Monday. This is not that bad is it? I was only on Xanax for around 5 weeks from my regular Dr. Psychiatrist took me off that and put me in the 5mg Valium on October 17th, than dropped me to 4 on the 25th. Now after 2 1/2 weeks wants to drop Monday to 3. So I have not been on the Benzos very long. I think she would like me off of it ASAP. But I also have taken Ambien 12.5 mg for 10 months. And she said we will tackle that after getting off the direct benzo. I know Pam even mentioned only taper one at a time. And getting off the Xanax/Valium should be first. This sound right? Thanks. Jerry 

Hi @[Je...]

So, you have been taking benzodiazepines for a total of about 8-9 weeks - yes? That's limited use in my book. Yes, a small number of people can become quite dependent in as little weeks, but there is no reason to suppose this applies to you.

Ah. So you took 12.5mg Ambien for 10 months too. Was this immediately before your your use of Xanax? Or was this some time ago? If it was immediately before your use of Xanax, this makes a difference. If does not mean that your withdrawal is necessarily too fast, but it increases the likelihood. But if your psychiatrist is flexible,  and willing to adjust the time between cuts according to how you feel and react, try not to worry about it. The chances are that you will be fine.

Since you included mention of Ambien, you are probably aware that 'z-drugs', although chenically distinct, they are almost identical in action to benzodiazepines. (According to Ashton) 12.5mg Ambien is equivalent to about 6mg Valium (at least for the purposes of substitution).

Your psychiatrist's concern about you getting you off ASAP is well-founded. If there is no good reason to be taking benzodiazepines, (within reason) getting off sooner rather than later (before dependency sets in or deepens) is important. 4mg of Valium is a fairly modest dose, which is probably having a (somewhat) limited effect upon your GABA system. This is why we can follow linear tapers at lower doses.*

* At higher doses, it is usually suggested that you reduce your by something like 10% of your previous dose (not the dose at the start of your taper). This means that the size of cuts become ever smaller as your dose decreases over time. These are described as '(inverse) exponential curves'.** But a true exponential curve never actually reaches zero. But off course, it would be nonsense to be on ever increasingly smaller doses of benzodiazepine but never actually reaching zero.

** I really need to change my language around this. An 'inverse exponential curve' is actually a 'logarithmic curve'. The half-life of a benzodiazepine is an example of a logarithmic curve. I'm a bit slow on the uptake - you can tell I'm not a mathematician.

 

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[J...] said:

But I also have taken Ambien 12.5 mg for 10 months. And she said we will tackle that after getting off the direct benzo. I know Pam even mentioned only taper one at a time. And getting off the Xanax/Valium should be first.

Upon rereading this, I think you are still taking Ambien. Have you discussed with your psychiatrist about the possibility to tapering off the Ambien first? Or is getting off Valium a priority for some reason? Most members taking two or benzodiazepines (or z-drugs) usually taper off the shorter acting benzodiazepines first.

[[Je...]]

Yes I was on the Ambien first. Been on the Ambien around 10 or 11 months. I did notice when taking the Ambien the last 4 months or so (before any Xanax) that at times the Ambien was not working as good, at times. Yes I was taking the Ambien around 10 months before the Xanax. My regular Dr  started me on the Ambien around last December when I tapered off of 60 mg of opiates daily for back pain. I tapered myself off the opiates,  I started tapering September of last year and jumped in December. After stopping the opiates had trouble sleeping and my Dr prescribed the Ambien. And than 2 months ago in September my Dr prescribed Xanax .5 mg nightly for 90 days. After 4 weeks started having interdose withdrawl. Did not know what it was. My regular Dr did not know a thing about it. So in September I went to a psychiatrist who at first said, " you should never have been put on Ambien or Xanax, knowing your history of dependence on the opiates. So she started me on 5mg Valium and after 8 days dropped it to 4mg, 2 at night 2 at day. She wants me to get off the true benzodiazepine first. Than the Ambien. Drop Valium to 3mg tomorrow. Thoughts?

[[Je...]]

Also the Valium makes me feel terrible. Groggy, calves burning, major headaches, etc. But still working and functioning. Just feel terrible quite often. Don't like being on this Valium at all. If I tapered off the Ambien first I would not be able to sleep, anxiety would be terrible. Can I taper off the Ambien after the Valium? 

[[Co...]]

On 12/11/2023 at 17:48, [[J...] said:

Yes I was on the Ambien first. Been on the Ambien around 10 or 11 months. I did notice when taking the Ambien the last 4 months or so (before any Xanax) that at times the Ambien was not working as good, at times. Yes I was taking the Ambien around 10 months before the Xanax. My regular Dr  started me on the Ambien around last December when I tapered off of 60 mg of opiates daily for back pain. I tapered myself off the opiates,  I started tapering September of last year and jumped in December. After stopping the opiates had trouble sleeping and my Dr prescribed the Ambien. And than 2 months ago in September my Dr prescribed Xanax .5 mg nightly for 90 days. After 4 weeks started having interdose withdrawl. Did not know what it was. My regular Dr did not know a thing about it. So in September I went to a psychiatrist who at first said, " you should never have been put on Ambien or Xanax, knowing your history of dependence on the opiates. So she started me on 5mg Valium and after 8 days dropped it to 4mg, 2 at night 2 at day. She wants me to get off the true benzodiazepine first. Than the Ambien. Drop Valium to 3mg tomorrow. Thoughts?

I'm guessing, but perhaps your psychiatrist wishes to get you off Valium first due its long half-life and that it effectively equates to chronic dosing (and your apparent propensity towards developing an addiction). Or, perhaps, she feels that benzodiazepines are just plain worse than z-drugs. As I say, I'm guessing.

I would not worry too much about it. Withdrawal from benzodiazepines and z-drugs is inexact by its nature. I could not say with confidence which would be (generally) the better way to go, not with your particular history. Besides, I am not going to attempt to second guess your doctor. Your doctor appears to appreciate the problems and is willing to work with you - this is invaluable. Many (and an increasing number) of doctor would not in your situation.

My suggestion is that you follow your doctor's plan and provide her with feedback if you should experience any difficulties.

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[J...] said:

Also the Valium makes me feel terrible. Groggy, calves burning, major headaches, etc. But still working and functioning. Just feel terrible quite often. Don't like being on this Valium at all. If I tapered off the Ambien first I would not be able to sleep, anxiety would be terrible. Can I taper off the Ambien after the Valium? 

Well. That's sounds like a good reason to quit that first.

[[Je...]]

Awesome. Thanks for the replies Colin. It really helps. You know 2 months ago " before"  any of the Xanax or Valium. I had almost Zero withdrawal symptoms, no bad side effects,  no interdose withdrawl from the Ambien. Except maybe a occasional headache, every couple months. So I am hoping when off this Valium, I can feel much better again, and than Taper from the Ambien. I knew nothing about Benzodiazepines, and Ambien being like Benzodiazepine. This stuff is poison.  

[[An...]]

41 minutes ago, [[J...] said:

Awesome. Thanks for the replies Colin. It really helps. You know 2 months ago " before"  any of the Xanax or Valium. I had almost Zero withdrawal symptoms, no bad side effects,  no interdose withdrawl from the Ambien. Except maybe a occasional headache, every couple months. So I am hoping when off this Valium, I can feel much better again, and than Taper from the Ambien. I knew nothing about Benzodiazepines, and Ambien being like Benzodiazepine. This stuff is poison.  

I am really surprised by this with Ambien's short 1/2 life. I have taken z-drugs briefly and the effect was similar to taking Xanax or Ativan. I hated the short half-life when I was on Xanax. Do you only take the Ambien prior to bedtime? 

Why again did you even start the Xanax?

 

[[lo...]]

Hi jerry how are you doing now? I am reading people's stories.. valium didn't work for me so i have to taper off Xanax alone after 3 yrs 0.25mg twice a day

[[Je...]]

Hope you are well. You are at the right place. There are so many people on here that I wish could actually be my Doctor , because they know how this tapering works. To many Doctors in our Country are prescribe these benzos, but have NO IDEA how to help with tapering off. Right at this moment, I am  pretty good. But it can change fast. I was only taking Xanax for 5 weeks, .5 nightly for 90 days. After 5 weeks started having interdose withdrawl.  Psychiatrist switched me to Valium, longer half life. But " for me" I hate the way Valium makes me feel and having several side effects from it. But I have been on it for 3 1/2 weeks now, and will have to deal with it. Started on 5mg, than after 8 days went down to 4mg, for almost 3 weeks, now Doctor wants to drop me to 3 mg tomorrow.  I am going to ask her if we can just go to 3 1/2 for around 10 days first. But I suppose I have to do whatever she says. I could try a new Psychiatrist but I live in rural area so not much to choose from. If I go into St Louis where there are many, you never know what you are going to get. God Bless you, and remember  you can and will be able to get off these terrible drugs no matter what. Convince yourself that you can and will beat this. 

[[Je...]]

5 hours ago, [[A...] said:

I am really surprised by this with Ambien's short 1/2 life. I have taken z-drugs briefly and the effect was similar to taking Xanax or Ativan. I hated the short half-life when I was on Xanax. Do you only take the Ambien prior to bedtime? 

Why again did you even start the Xanax?

I take the ambien 3 times a day. I have a TERRIBLE work schedule.  6.5 at bedtime,  1.5 at a  2 hour break, and around 4.5 when get home from work for nap. BUT, I would start tapering them now but was told not to at this time, and since I was only on true Benzo for 5 weeks plus the time switched to Valium, 3 1/2 weeks, Dr wants me off that first, ASAP, so it does not settle into my body and brain to deep, and I am have some terrible side effects from the Valium, but still able to make it to work. My regular Dr put me on the Xanax because of some panic attacks I was having,  but prescribed it when shouldn't have, Or I would not even be going through this. When I went to Psychiatrist when started getting interdose from the Xanax, She said I should have never been put on 1/2 mg of 'Xanax, once nightly for 90 days, especially when on Ambien. She said she never would have given me Xanax. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by [Je...]

[[Je...]]

HELP: I take the ambien 3 times a day. I have a TERRIBLE work schedule.  6.5 at bedtime,  1.5 at a  2 hour break, and around 4.5 when get home from work for nap. BUT, I would start tapering them now but was told not to at this time, and since I was only on true Benzo for 5 weeks taper the Valium first. QUESTION: Can I at least move my Ambien doses that I have spread out like it reads above and put the smaller doses all to the same dose just at the bedtime dose. This is what the 12.5 extended release  is prescribed for anyways.  I am not going to be changing over all mg. use per day. Just put them together . Or will this cause bad withdrawl? Thanks. Also does Valium withdrawl or side effects cause burning in calves, and all of a sudden numbness in spots, like hands and forearms? I did just 5 days ago make a drop in the Valium from 4mg to 3.5 mg, and on 25th will be making another drop to 3mg. Doctor wants me off ASAP.  Sorry to make this longer with another question. About the Ambien. After I jump from the Valium would it be better/easier to taper straight from the Ambien, which is 12.5 mg extended release, and cut 1 mg every few days , or would it be better/easier to taper in doses spread out through the day because it is so short acting? Just so you know my Doctor is not going to substitute with Valium, which gives me horrible side effects anyways. I probably never would have been in this stupid predicament with the Ambien if I never would have taken the 12.5 dose all at once just at bedtime in the first place like it was prescribed.  Please let me know your insights. Sorry so many questions.  Thanks for your help. Jerry. God I look forward to having this out of my brain.

Edited November 15, 2023 by [Je...]
Valium burning sensation

[[Co...]]

Hi @[Je...]

I am not sure I am properly following you. Can you list your the time of day you take your three Ambien doses, and the dose. And the times and dose of any other benzodiazepines you take.

Similarly, post the schedule, dose and particular benzos to which you would like to change.

[[Je...]]

Ok. Ambien = 6 mg at 11::00 PM . Than 2 mg at 5:00 AM. Than 4.5 mg at 3:00 PM. Valium= 3 mg at 10:00 PM. Than 1/2 mg at 10:00 AM. My Dr wants me off Valium ASAP, because I have only been on "true" benzodiazepine for 10 weeks. On the Valium started out with 5 mg, now down to 3.5. Not going to taper Ambien until jump from Valium. I was wondering with the Ambien would it be best to take the total daily dose of 12.5 mg all at once at 11:00 PM, and cut out the naps? And if I did would that give me bad withdrawls from Ambien because taking away the 5:00 am dose and 3:00 pm dose? Would I have withdrawls at those times? I am asking because after jump from the Valium would it be better to taper off Ambien with only taking 1 dose of the 12.5mg at 11 :00 PM, or would it be better to taper off Ambien with 12.5 mg spilt up like I am throught the day because of its short life? I hope this make sense.  Thanks.

[[Co...]]

So that it easier for everyone to follow:

Now:

Ambien:
05:00 2mg
15:00 4.5mg
23:00 6mg

Valium:
10:00 0.5mg
22:00 3mg

You will be tapering off Valium first, and wish to take all of your Ambien (12.5mg) at 23:00 - yes?

The potential problem with that approach is that Valium is a long acting, so you have some coverage throughout the day. It is hard to say how you will react when you are taking only the very short acting Ambien once per day and no Valium. Given your medium-term use, you might be OK, but it is firmly uncertain.

Are you taking Ambien strictly for sleep? If so, then what you are proposing makes some sense. But in your shoes, I think I would make one change at a time (taper off the Valium), wait a couple of weeks, and then adjust my Ambien dosing according to how I feel.

I think without the Valium on board, it might become clearer to you what's the best direction for you to go.

And, as ever, you should discuss your plans with your doctor.

[[Je...]]

Yes, Ambien for sleep only.Ok. Great. That does make perfect sense. Sorry sometimes I sound confusing. For one, I am a old school concrete finisher. Got into concrete when I quit high school, ( like a knuckle head). Lol. And that was 43 years ago. Wow, I am getting old. And also I made a cut on the Valium from 4 down to 3.5 , 5 days ago. So feeling some confusion and withdrawls today. Texting messages has never been my thing. And when typing during a withdrawal I can get little confused sometimes.. Not terrible though. My psychiatrist was going to cut me from 4mg to 3mg, for the next 30 days,  so I just asked her, if your wanting me down to 3mg this month, can we just go 3.5mg for first 2 weeks than down to 3mg last 2 weeks, and she said sure. Anyways thanks again. Man Saturday I was on my riding mower and all of a sudden I felt like I was 100%, bummer is it only last 2 hours. What I thought was cool was the fact that Ashton Manual says that there will be windows like this throughout taper. Wow, spot on. Look forward to that window being 24 hours a day. Thanks again. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by [Je...]

[[Je...]]

Has anyone that has taken Valium had burning and muscle soreness and weakness in hands, forearms,  and ankles, calves? This is horrible. 

[[An...]]

The burning from benzos was mostly in my face, chest, and back. I got burning more from Klonopin than I did from Valium. I don't recall any burning from the 7 years I spent on Xanax, but Xanax had many other horrid SXs for me. All benzos are bad news once you start to become tolerant to them.