Clonazepam taper help thanks !

[[Ma...]]

@[Kh...] @[me...] @[Sw...]

I really hope it can get better and better for all of us

 

[[Ma...]]

13 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Hello @[Ma...].  To clarify for you and future readers of this thread, the Rivotril (clonazepam) liquid you have described is indeed a solution not a suspension.  For example, below is the drug data information sheet for Rivotril® 2.5 mg/mL oral solution (drops) available in New Zealand.  As you can see, the excipients (ingredients) listed on page 15 are the same as the ones you have listed upthread.

Rivotril® 2.5 mg/mL oral solution (drops)
https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/Datasheet/r/RivotrilOralSol.pdf

You're right, I was wrong.

I don't know why I was convinced it was a suspension when I now see that it is clearly stated on the container that it is a solution, so now we know that you can simply dilute it in water.
Thank you

However, I follow @[Co...] advice because the rate of reduction I get with the small insulin syringe seems to work without the need for dilution.
Perhaps towards the end of taper, when I will have around 0.2mg remaining (2 drops), he will consider whether to dilute a little in water to obtain reduction steps always below 10%.

The solution volume is 10 ml and the package is not even half full, just add 10ml of water directly inside and mix (but I would like to make sure that the mixing occurs perfectly) to obtain a halved dosage, from 2.5mg/ml you go to 1.25mg/ml, it's not a great dilution for those who really want a daily micro taper but halving it may be enough to finish the withdrawal with small steps, just my idea, I'm not an expert.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Li...]]

You’re welcome @[Ma...].  For the purpose of microtapering, some members have made do-it-yourself (DIY) diluted liquids with a concentration in the range of 0.01mg/mL (e.g. 1 drop or 0.1mg of the Rivotril solution in 10mLs of water). Measuring the diluted liquid with a 1mL syringe with graduation marks every 0.01mL enables them to make reductions in the range of 0.001mg or 1 microgram.

Your point about ensuring that the diluted liquid is well mixed is an important one.  We don’t know the properties of DIY diluted Rivotril liquids (e.g. it’s possible that some of the clonazepam in the Rivotril solution recrystallizes  when water is added). 

[[Co...]]

5 hours ago, [[M...] said:

You're right, I was wrong.

I don't know why I was convinced it was a suspension when I now see that it is clearly stated on the container that it is a solution, so now we know that you can simply dilute it in water.
Thank you

But it contains propylene glycol. I thought this acts as a suspension medium? And if so, dilution with water would decrease its suspension properties. @[Li...] has taken a deep dive into these matters, so hopefully she will comment and clarify this for me/us.

5 hours ago, [[M...] said:

However, I follow @[Co...] advice because the rate of reduction I get with the small insulin syringe seems to work without the need for dilution.
Perhaps towards the end of taper, when I will have around 0.2mg remaining (2 drops), he will consider whether to dilute a little in water to obtain reduction steps always below 10%.

I think we should not change what ain't broken. As for changing your method at a lower dose if you feel it is required: to be clear, of course I will try to help, but the decision is yours, not mine. 

5 hours ago, [[M...] said:

The solution volume is 10 ml and the package is not even half full, just add 10ml of water directly inside and mix (but I would like to make sure that the mixing occurs perfectly) to obtain a halved dosage, from 2.5mg/ml you go to 1.25mg/ml, it's not a great dilution for those who really want a daily micro taper but halving it may be enough to finish the withdrawal with small steps, just my idea, I'm not an expert.

Another approach would be to obtain additional propylene glycol from your pharmacist. In your shoes, I would ask the pharmacist for his/her opinion about using propylene glycol as opposed to distilled water.

[[Li...]]

49 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

But it contains propylene glycol. I thought this acts as a suspension medium?

Helo @[Co...]. My understanding is that propylene glycol (PG) is functioning as a solvent. If the PG was functioning as a suspending vehicle, the formulation would have been characterized as a suspension not a solution.  In the New Zealand formulation, the other excipients appear to be flavorants, a pH adjuster, and a colorant.

[[Co...]]

10 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

Helo @[Co...]. My understanding is that propylene glycol (PG) is functioning as a solvent. If the PG was functioning as a suspending vehicle, the formulation would have been characterized as a suspension not a solution.  In the New Zealand formulation, the other excipients appear to be flavorants, a pH adjuster, and a colorant.

Thanks, Lib.

Looking into this a bit more, I see that PG is used as a 'water-miscible cosolvent'. So, it is used where water by itself would be a poor solvent (which I believe is the case for clonazepam). In which case, it would be helpful to know the ideal ratio between water and propylene glycol to maintain its solvent properties so that the clonazepam does not fall out of solution if diluted.

[[Ma...]]

5 hours ago, [[L...] said:

You’re welcome @[Ma...].  For the purpose of microtapering, some members have made do-it-yourself (DIY) diluted liquids with a concentration in the range of 0.01mg/mL (e.g. 1 drop or 0.1mg of the Rivotril solution in 10mLs of water). Measuring the diluted liquid with a 1mL syringe with graduation marks every 0.01mL enables them to make reductions in the range of 0.001mg or 1 microgram.

Your point about ensuring that the diluted liquid is well mixed is an important one.  We don’t know the properties of DIY diluted Rivotril liquids (e.g. it’s possible that some of the clonazepam in the Rivotril solution recrystallizes  when water is added). 

Thanks again
As you say  “ it is possible that some of the clonazepam in the Rivotril solution recrystallizes when water is added).”

I sincerely hope that those who are withdrawing from Clonazepam drops and have decided to dilute it have informed themselves well before doing so.
I don't feel very safe doing these DIY dilutions, they're probably fine but my paranoia about "do it yourself" could cause me more stress than benefits.

3 hours ago, [[C...] said:

But it contains propylene glycol. I thought this acts as a suspension medium? And if so, dilution with water would decrease its suspension properties. @[Li...] has taken a deep dive into these matters, so hopefully she will comment and clarify this for me/us.

I think we should not change what ain't broken. As for changing your method at a lower dose if you feel it is required: to be clear, of course I will try to help, but the decision is yours, not mine. 

Another approach would be to obtain additional propylene glycol from your pharmacist. In your shoes, I would ask the pharmacist for his/her opinion about using propylene glycol as opposed to distilled water.

I also thought that propylene glycol served as a suspension but actually the package says solution, I don't know what to say.
I read a little about propylene glycol and I have some at home because my girlfriend uses it to make e-cigarette liquids, it is also used in vaping, I tried pouring a small quantity into a glass and I noticed that it has a higher density than water, let's say it's not as dense as honey but it's definitely not liquid like water, I don't know.

 

I contacted the pharmacist and his opinion is not to lengthen the drug so I didn't receive much information from him, his opinion is to integrate another lighter benzo such as Valium if you want to obtain smaller dose jumps.
If someone here has a more cooperative pharmacist than me, he might have better luck than me in getting information.
Furthermore, yesterday my cousin went to her psychiatrist, I told her to ask him for information, the psychiatrist said that Rivotril can be diluted with water but does not recommend it as a method for the same "doubts" that we are raising here, he too said that if necessary he prefers to add a lighter Benzo in the lineup.

I continue to follow your advice and move forward without diluting, if I manage/we manage to obtain "certain" information perhaps towards the end of taping I could think about diluting and I would be grateful if you give me a hand with the calculations, but as you say " I don't change what isn't broken" so at the moment I'll continue like this, if I realize that I will have major withdrawal attacks going forward we'll see what to do

 

2 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Helo @[Co...]. My understanding is that propylene glycol (PG) is functioning as a solvent. If the PG was functioning as a suspending vehicle, the formulation would have been characterized as a suspension not a solution.  In the New Zealand formulation, the other excipients appear to be flavorants, a pH adjuster, and a colorant.

here too it has the same type of excipients

1 hour ago, [[C...] said:

Thanks, Lib.

Looking into this a bit more, I see that PG is used as a 'water-miscible cosolvent'. So, it is used where water by itself would be a poor solvent (which I believe is the case for clonazepam). In which case, it would be helpful to know the ideal ratio between water and propylene glycol to maintain its solvent properties so that the clonazepam does not fall out of solution if diluted.

what you say seems important to know before tackling the dilution, next week I will try to contact another pharmacist to see if he can give me some information, maybe in the meantime we will find out something more.
I probably don't make a statement because I'm very fussy by nature and quite suggestible so I admit that I wouldn't venture into a do-it-yourself project without having absolute certainties.

Edited November 10, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Ma...]]

 

Sorry to bother you again but I'm having trouble.

I realized I was in tolerance even before starting the withdrawal in March this year, at that point I would have had to increase the dose to make it work but I decided to get out of it, I started a slow and gradual withdrawal and I never had any major problems along the way, I started from 1mg and today after 7 months I reached 0.5mg, I'm halfway there, I'm moving forward, I can manage the anxiety but the problem is my tinnitus, it continues to increase during the cone , this is a huge problem because it whistles like a train and it whistles louder and louder week after week, at this rate when I finish the withdrawal I will finally be free from the drug but I will have to throw myself out the window because I will have unbearable tinnitus.

You taper based on how you react, if I hit a hard spot I stabilize the dose longer than usual before continuing to make new cuts but with the tinnitus this doesn't seem to help.

If I stabilize the dose I don't feel like I'm getting better as the days go by my tinnitus just seems to get worse, it's like I'm prolonging the agony and I feel like I have to hurry up and get off the drug, but at the same time I'm afraid that if I increase the speed of the cone makes my tinnitus even worse.

A slow reduction "should" give my brain some time to recover compared to a fast cone, I thought this could avoid -or limit- considerable increases in tinnitus but apparently this is not the case, my GABA receptors evidently do not they manage to compensate for the withdrawal from the drug and I assume that the tinnitus is increasing because my brain is in a state of hyperexcitation due to withdrawal.

Please give me some advice, thanks.

I also have anxiety but this now seems to be a secondary problem to the tinnitus, in fact it is probably the increase in the volume of the tinnitus that is contributing to making me more anxious than the withdrawal from the drug.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Kh...]]

me too brother marc80 ....my tinnitus been ramping I am probably tapering a little quick but having no other negative symptoms.  I am hoping the tinnitus will subside at some point once the drugs are out of the system for good...one can hope    keep us posted too and keep the faith and hope

[[Ma...]]

1 hour ago, [[K...] said:

me too brother marc80 ....my tinnitus been ramping I am probably tapering a little quick but having no other negative symptoms.  I am hoping the tinnitus will subside at some point once the drugs are out of the system for good...one can hope    keep us posted too and keep the faith and hope

thanks friend, let's hope it goes better for both of us, now I'm thinking about speeding up the withdrawal but I don't want to do worse than better

[[Ma...]]

.

Edited December 27, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[cc...]]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:48, [[L...] said:

Helo @[Co...]. My understanding is that propylene glycol (PG) is functioning as a solvent. If the PG was functioning as a suspending vehicle, the formulation would have been characterized as a suspension not a solution.  In the New Zealand formulation, the other excipients appear to be flavorants, a pH adjuster, and a colorant.

Is this even when you do only 2ml PG and 8ml Water per 1 mg klonopin? Shouldn't we do PG only? If it's not so safe, should we do so in OraPlus?

[[Li...]]

@[cc...] The 1mg of clonazepam tablet(s) + 2mL PG + 8mL water ‘recipe’ was developed by members who had no training or experience in pharmaceutical sciences or drug formulation.  I won’t bore you with the technical issues with the ‘recipe’ but suffice it to say we do not know the properties of the resulting tablet/PG/water mixture. To our knowledge, it has never been professionally analyzed and I’ve found less than a handful of members who even tried it. 

I personally use a professionally compounded, stability-tested oral clonazepam suspension.  Based on my current understandings (which may change if new information is made available) … if I had to make a do-it-yourself liquid, I would be inclined to use the same formulation my compounding pharmacist uses (see link below) or whole fat, homogenized milk.

0.1mg/mL oral clonazepam suspension
https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/-/media/nch/specialties/pharmacy/compounding-formulas/clonazepam-oral.ashx

 

 

 

[[cc...]]

On 07/02/2024 at 17:36, [[L...] said:

@[cc...] The 1mg of clonazepam tablet(s) + 2mL PG + 8mL water ‘recipe’ was developed by members who had no training or experience in pharmaceutical sciences or drug formulation.  I won’t bore you with the technical issues with the ‘recipe’ but suffice it to say we do not know the properties of the resulting tablet/PG/water mixture. To our knowledge, it has never been professionally analyzed and I’ve found less than a handful of members who even tried it. 

I personally use a professionally compounded, stability-tested oral clonazepam suspension.  Based on my current understandings (which may change if new information is made available) … if I had to make a do-it-yourself liquid, I would be inclined to use the same formulation my compounding pharmacist uses (see link below) or whole fat, homogenized milk.

0.1mg/mL oral clonazepam suspension
https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/-/media/nch/specialties/pharmacy/compounding-formulas/clonazepam-oral.ashx

Thanks for responding. I got this from a benzo coalition member which has verified with a pharmacy. Did she get this wrong? Can youexplain a bit more and also it Ora Plus would make any difference?

 

I really need to do liquid but cannot spend for compounding. Please assist. Thanks

[[Li...]]

@[cc...]

In your shoes, I would request additional information from the person who suggested the ‘recipe’ to you. For example:

• Who developed the recipe?  What were his/her credentials?
• What specific credible evidence was used to inform the recipe?
• What exactly did the pharmacy do to ‘verify’ the recipe?  Were they able to locate it in a formulation database?  Did they consult with a drug formulation specialist?  Did they make a liquid using the recipe and analyze it?  If so, what analyses did they run?  Does the pharmacy have experience using this recipe to prepare clonazepam liquids for patients? Have these patients been able to use the liquid successfully to taper?
• Does the person who suggested the recipe have personal experience using the recipe?  With clonazepam or a different benzodiazepine (different benzodiazepines require different formulations)?   Does this person know of other individuals who have successfully used this recipe with clonazepam?

[[cc...]]

If you believe in water taper, the ratio wouldn’t make in WORSE, would it?

They told me that they did lots research with pharmacists and other professionals that agreed with the method 

[[Li...]]

@[cc...] Would you be so kind as to clarify who ‘they’ is?  In an earlier post you indicated you got the ratio from a benzo coalition member (I assumed you meant BIC - the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition). I checked with my contacts at BIC and they know nothing about this.

[[cc...]]

On 16/02/2024 at 18:49, [[L...] said:

@[cc...] Would you be so kind as to clarify who ‘they’ is?  In an earlier post you indicated you got the ratio from a benzo coalition member (I assumed you meant BIC - the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition). I checked with my contacts at BIC and they know nothing about this.

Global Benzo Support Network. Thet have some YT clips explaining this. Someone Builder in this chat left due to undue harrasment.

The latter talks about milk but she has reformed to PG

[[Li...]]

Thank you for clarifying who ‘they’ are, @[cc...]. I strongly encourage you to conduct your own due diligence before using this approach (especially with clonazepam) or suggesting it to others. 

[[cc...]]

55 minutes ago, [[L...] said:

Thank you for clarifying who ‘they’ are, @[cc...]. I strongly encourage you to conduct your own due diligence before using this approach (especially with clonazepam) or suggesting it to others. 

I appreicate your words of caution but it can't be worse than JUST water taper. I shake it up anyway, despite the claim that it becomes a solution. I'm not gonna get my doctor to agree on compounding and it's very costly too. Cutting, for some reason is very messy and not accurate enough. I hear what you're saying though.

About others though, I'm following somone and doing fine in taper. If i'd see trouble G-d forbid, I'll stop and do something else. This panic mode and hysteria never sat well with me. If you don't taste, you don't know it's good or not; if you don't try self help, you don't know your abilities, etc...

[[or...]]

On 23/09/2023 at 05:40, [[M...] said:

Ok Colin, thank you, u are very good guy.

let me tell you a little more at this point.
I decided to start the reduction because I feel that after 12 months I can do without it and I have also developed a bit of tolerance, I realize that the drug has less effect and rather than helping me it is starting to bother me, this would be the famous crossroads where a person has to decide whether to continue using it by increasing the dosage or get rid of the drug, I decided to get rid of it and started to reduce it.
Obviously my first reasoning was to reduce it slowly because today with 1mg I already have tolerance, by reducing it during the reduction I wouldn't want to experience too much withdrawal.
You are certainly more expert than me so I take into account what you tell me.
If you think 12 months is too much I can easily try to speed it up by removing half a drop a week and reducing the total time to 6 months.
Honestly, I hadn't taken into consideration the problems with slow climbing because you always hear a lot of people say that they climbed too fast, I was trying to stay away from that type of mistake.
What do you think?

 

Hi Marc, I've been on 1 mg of Clonazepam for 35 years, and so glad you understood about it no longer working for you and even causing problems much earlier than I realized it.  I didn't even think about the possibility of issues I was having years ago, being caused from my little dose-a-day of 1 mg.  I found it all out after getting to bb last March, 2023.  I've been on a dry micro taper since then with very, few bad wd sxs.  Have been able to keep living my life.

I had to go with listening to my body, and I gone between .003  tapers from my 1mg Tablet, and now down to .001 g.  I hold each time.  On the .003 I had to hold a whole month so I dropped down to just .001 g and only had to hold for I think it was just 9 days when I felt stable. I use a small jewelry scale, and go by weight of tablets.

I don't know much about the liquids, but I would be with what Colin said in his first reply to you because every once of us is different, and I can tell a lot better now what stable means, and when it's pretty much time to taper again, oregonlady, and welcome to BB, you're not alone

 

 

[[Co...]]

14 hours ago, [[c...] said:

Global Benzo Support Network. Thet have some YT clips explaining this. Someone Builder in this chat left due to undue harrasment.

The latter talks about milk but she has reformed to PG

Hi @[cc...] It is a bit unfair for me to write about @[bu...] since he is not involved in this thread, and rarely visits BB these days, but since this matter is well documented in various posts across the platform anyway, and since you invoked his name, I think it is OK for me to add some clarification.

@[bu...] was not 'harassed'. He made unsubstantiated claims for efficacy with a method for making up liquids. Discussion of such topics are allowed at BB. What is not allowed is to claim that efficacy is guaranteed. As you and I have already discussed in this thread, it is important to understand that adding water to a commercial benzodiazepine solvent or suspension agent might affect efficacy. It is only reasonable to suppose that when creating 'home brew' solutions or suspensions from scratch, reliability is even less certain. We required that builder change the language he used to describe his method - he generally refused to do this.

There is virtually no published research about making benzodiazepine solutions using alcohol. What little research there is used distilled water, pure ethanol, and (I think) pure benzodiazepine powder. They also used laboratory grade balances (scales), stirrers and heaters. All these things will affect results, sometimes dramatically. Water is not distilled water; vodka is not ethanol; a clonazepam tablet is far from pure clonazepam; and kitchens are not professional laboratories.

[[cc...]]

On 23/02/2024 at 07:51, [[C...] said:

Hi @[cc...] It is a bit unfair for me to write about @[bu...] since he is not involved in this thread, and rarely visits BB these days, but since this matter is well documented in various posts across the platform anyway, and since you invoked his name, I think it is OK for me to add some clarification.

@[bu...] was not 'harassed'. He made unsubstantiated claims for efficacy with a method for making up liquids. Discussion of such topics are allowed at BB. What is not allowed is to claim that efficacy is guaranteed. As you and I have already discussed in this thread, it is important to understand that adding water to a commercial benzodiazepine solvent or suspension agent might affect efficacy. It is only reasonable to suppose that when creating 'home brew' solutions or suspensions from scratch, reliability is even less certain. We required that builder change the language he used to describe his method - he generally refused to do this.

There is virtually no published research about making benzodiazepine solutions using alcohol. What little research there is used distilled water, pure ethanol, and (I think) pure benzodiazepine powder. They also used laboratory grade balances (scales), stirrers and heaters. All these things will affect results, sometimes dramatically. Water is not distilled water; vodka is not ethanol; a clonazepam tablet is far from pure clonazepam; and kitchens are not professional laboratories.

Thanks for clarifying. I understand the concern and possible dilemma. I’m not doing very good on my taper (doing 3%) using the carrier/water method.

I do much wanted it to work because doing 3% is tough to do with scales. The starting 1.5 mg I’m doing assumes 200mg weight per .5 tablet; taken 3 * 200 for dosing. So 600mg weight * .03, would be 18mg that I can scrape off a 200mg tablet.

I’m also concerned about scored tablets and the equal distribution. Many claim that the distribution issue is overblown while some think it’s an issue. Most seem like they support the former.

Any ideas? I have lots of taper trouble and seeking a better way, unless my taper worries are causing the issues. So many people tell me the right ways to do this and are really trying to help. I just don’t want to suffer so much. Thanks 

[[cc...]]

On 23/02/2024 at 07:51, [[C...] said:

Hi @[cc...] It is a bit unfair for me to write about @[bu...] since he is not involved in this thread, and rarely visits BB these days, but since this matter is well documented in various posts across the platform anyway, and since you invoked his name, I think it is OK for me to add some clarification.

@[bu...] was not 'harassed'. He made unsubstantiated claims for efficacy with a method for making up liquids. Discussion of such topics are allowed at BB. What is not allowed is to claim that efficacy is guaranteed. As you and I have already discussed in this thread, it is important to understand that adding water to a commercial benzodiazepine solvent or suspension agent might affect efficacy. It is only reasonable to suppose that when creating 'home brew' solutions or suspensions from scratch, reliability is even less certain. We required that builder change the language he used to describe his method - he generally refused to do this.

There is virtually no published research about making benzodiazepine solutions using alcohol. What little research there is used distilled water, pure ethanol, and (I think) pure benzodiazepine powder. They also used laboratory grade balances (scales), stirrers and heaters. All these things will affect results, sometimes dramatically. Water is not distilled water; vodka is not ethanol; a clonazepam tablet is far from pure clonazepam; and kitchens are not professional laboratories.

@[Co...] Do you at all believe in any homemade liquid tapers? Milk, for instance? Can I taper using milk in mL? Example: I take 10ml milk for a .5mg clonazepam pill and intake 9ml of the milk if I want to take the 90% OR take the 10% off and drink the rest?

Whats my best bet? Also, if milk is ok, can you please show references and documentation on those. Sorry if I’m a bother. I’m suffering from benzos for a long time and feel very disillusioned and frustrated that I’m not getting anywhere.

[[Co...]]

13 minutes ago, [[c...] said:

Thanks for clarifying. I understand the concern and possible dilemma. I’m not doing very good on my taper (doing 3%) using the carrier/water method.

I do much wanted it to work because doing 3% is tough to do with scales. The starting 1.5 mg I’m doing assumes 200mg weight per .5 tablet; taken 3 * 200 for dosing. So 600mg weight * .03, would be 18mg that I can scrape off a 200mg tablet.

I’m also concerned about scored tablets and the equal distribution. Many claim that the distribution issue is overblown while some think it’s an issue. Most seem like they support the former.

Any ideas? I have lots of taper trouble and seeking a better way, unless my taper worries are causing the issues. So many people tell me the right ways to do this and are really trying to help. I just don’t want to suffer so much. Thanks 

Yesterday, I shared my thoughts on distribution of benzodiazepine with pills in another thread. Make of it what you will; take with a pinch of salt.