Clonazepam taper help thanks !

[[Ma...]]

5 hours ago, [[C...] said:

I suggest that you adjust the time between cuts according to how you feel and react. But being less than feeling fully comfortable is to be expected. So I also suggest that you do not draw out the taper for longer than necessary.

Ok Colin, essentially you're telling me that being completely at ease is very difficult so there's no need to slow down too much because I still have to accept that there will be a bit of discomfort during the climb and this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm rushing it, it's normal for there to be malaise.
Did I say it right?

thank u

[[Co...]]

6 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Ok Colin, essentially you're telling me that being completely at ease is very difficult so there's no need to slow down too much because I still have to accept that there will be a bit of discomfort during the climb and this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm rushing it, it's normal for there to be malaise.
Did I say it right?

thank u

Essentially, I'd say yes. Around here at least, we taper to mitigate against unmanageable withdrawal symptoms. Very few of our members would report experiencing no withdrawal symptoms, even when following a very slow taper. Then, as you taper off, there is matter of dealing with the underlying reasons for why benzodiazepines were prescribed in the first place. Keep expectations realistic. That is: experiencing some difficulties is typical; and you will probably manage just fine.

[[Ma...]]

@[Co...]

You were very clear, thank you, I'll see as I go👍

[[Ma...]]

 

ok guys I need your advice, I'm continuing with the withdrawal, my anxiety is under control but my tinnitus is not.
I have had tinnitus for years which are not caused by benzos but in the last few days they have increased in volume and I am practically certain that this is due to the withdrawal.

You told me that my withdrawal is already quite slow, I'm on 1/4 of a drop per week (0.025mg per week), I don't know if it's time to slow down even more?

I wonder if it is normal to have an increase in tinnitus volume during the withdrawal and should I accept that I hear it louder during this period or should I slow down more?

Thank u

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Ma...]]

@[Co...]

 

I'm getting the idea of diluting the drug so as to do a daily micro taper instead of doing a weekly cut and holt, does this make sense?
as I was telling you, the drug here in my area is sold in liquid form, it is not a solution but a suspension, it is dense, I am not sure that adding water would work because I believe that even by mixing it I would not obtain a perfect dilution and the risk is that when I'm going to take it with the syringe, the dosage is not homogeneous.
The excipients of the original solution are sodium saccharin, peach flavor, glacial acetic acid, propylene glycol.
Do you think if I add propylene glycol instead of water it would be fine?
(I already have it at home because my gf use it to make liquids for electronic cigarette).

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Co...]]

3 hours ago, [[M...] said:

@[Co...]

I'm getting the idea of diluting the drug so as to do a daily micro taper instead of doing a weekly cut and holt, does this make sense?
as I was telling you, the drug here in my area is sold in liquid form, it is not a solution but a suspension, it is dense, I am not sure that adding water would work because I believe that even by mixing it I would not obtain a perfect dilution and the risk is that when I'm going to take it with the syringe, the dosage is not homogeneous.
The excipients of the original solution are sodium saccharin, peach flavor, glacial acetic acid, propylene glycol.
Do you think if I add propylene glycol instead of water it would be fine?
(I already have it at home because I use it to make liquids for my electronic cigarette).

I would expect that would be a much better approach than adding water. But you pharmacist will be able to provide you with a reliable opinion.

[[Ma...]]

Just now, [[C...] said:

I would expect that would be a much better approach than adding water. But you pharmacist will be able to provide you with a reliable opinion.

Thank u Colin, do you think it's normal to expect an increase in tinnitus during the retreat?

ps

I'm not good with calculations, do you know where I can find information on how to dilute to obtain a suitable strength?
Thank you

 

[[Co...]]

10 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Thank u Colin, do you think it's normal to expect an increase in tinnitus during the retreat?

This is possible. Some member report tinnitus during withdrawal. This should come as little surprise since benzodiazepines are sometimes used to treat tinnitus. It should resolve itself after you have completed your taper.

10 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

ps

I'm not good with calculations, do you know where I can find information on how to dilute to obtain a suitable strength?
Thank you

Your pharmacist might help you with this. But if not, we can help you put this together.

[[Ma...]]

18 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

This is possible. Some member report tinnitus during withdrawal. This should come as little surprise since benzodiazepines are sometimes used to treat tinnitus. It should resolve itself after you have completed your taper.

Your pharmacist might help you with this. But if not, we can help you put this together.

 

thanks Colin.
I already had tinnitus before taking the drug, I'm noticing that it has increased in volume since I started the withdrawal so I'm a little worried, which is why I was asking you whether to further reduce the speed of the withdrawal or switch to a daily micro taper can be useful.
It's probably useless and I just have to accept this "problem" during the retreat, I don't know.

I'm very comfortable with my current withdrawal method and I'm not really that eager to start doing calculations and dilutions, I don't even know if it would be useful to do so because I'm not experiencing any major anxiety or insomnia problems with the current withdrawal, the only problem is the volume of my tinnitus.
I know you don't have a crystal ball but you are certainly more expert than me, what do you think?

do you think it might be useful to do a dilution and the micro taper or am I complicating things for nothing?

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Co...]]

@[Ma...] What is your present is your present dose, and the specific details of your medicine: product name; dose; dose per drop; and your rate of withdrawal (how much you cut and how often).

Yeah - I cannot provide you with certainties. But we usually suggest that you taper according to how you react. If you hit a rough patch, stabilise your dose for longer then usual before you continue making new cuts.

[[Kh...]]

2 hours ago, [[C...] said:

This is possible. Some member report tinnitus during withdrawal. This should come as little surprise since benzodiazepines are sometimes used to treat tinnitus. It should resolve itself after you have completed your taper.

Your pharmacist might help you with this. But if not, we can help you put this together.

Seems like speeding up the taper if u can bear it in hopes tinnitus decreases when finished (for me) cuz my tinnitus def ramping as I taper.  Ugh 

[[Ma...]]

34 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

@[Ma...] What is your present is your present dose, and the specific details of your medicine: product name; dose; dose per drop; and your rate of withdrawal (how much you cut and how often).

Yeah - I cannot provide you with certainties. But we usually suggest that you taper according to how you react. If you hit a rough patch, stabilise your dose for longer then usual before you continue making new cuts.

 

Details:
Rivotril (Clonazepam) in liquid form.
Its concentration is 2.5 mg/ml.
A drop is 0.1 mg of Klonopin/Rivotril
The solution volume is 10 ml.
The excipients of the solution are:
sodium saccharin, peach flavor, glacial acetic acid, propylene glycol.

I took it for 12 months starting from 10 drops (1mg) divided into 2 daily doses taken 12 hours apart.
I therefore started with 5 drops in the morning and 5 drops in the evening.
I reduced the drug by removing 1/4 of a drop every 7 days (0.025mg per week) using a 0.5ml insulin syringe, 4 notches on the syringe correspond to 1 drop, 2 notches are half a drop, 1 notch is 1/4 of drop.

To date I have removed 5 drops (0.5mg), I have 5 drops left to finish the withdrawal, at the moment I am on 2 drops in the morning and 3 in the evening, from here on I would have decided to slow down a bit and I will remove 1/4 of a drop every 14 days and no longer every 7 days, so it will be more or less half a drop per month = 0.05 mg per month).
Basically, it will take 10 months to remove these last 5 drops (0.5mg).

This is my plan, obviously I have absolutely no idea if it is worth switching to a daily microtaping and if this can "trick the brain better", I am not an expert, my thoughts went to daily microtaping in the hope that this will make my tinnitus calms down but I don't know.

 

[[Ma...]]

3 hours ago, [[K...] said:

Seems like speeding up the taper if u can bear it in hopes tinnitus decreases when finished (for me) cuz my tinnitus def ramping as I taper.  Ugh 

thanks for the support.
I've read that the slower you go, the less affected the tinnitus is but I go quite slowly but my tinnitus has increased so maybe I'm not slow enough or maybe what they told me is wrong, I don't know

From what you say I understand that in your opinion the tinnitus always has an increase during the withdrawal, regardless of how fast you do it, so your point of view is that I will not get any reduction in the tinnitus until I am above the drug and at that point the quicker you remove it the sooner you stop suffering, did I understand correctly?

What speed rate are your tapers at, if I may ask?

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Co...]]

1 hour ago, [[M...] said:

Details:
Rivotril (Clonazepam) in liquid form.
Its concentration is 2.5 mg/ml.
A drop is 0.1 mg of Klonopin/Rivotril
The solution volume is 10 ml.
The excipients of the solution are:
sodium saccharin, peach flavor, glacial acetic acid, propylene glycol.

I took it for 12 months starting from 10 drops (1mg) divided into 2 daily doses taken 12 hours apart.
I therefore started with 5 drops in the morning and 5 drops in the evening.
I reduced the drug by removing 1/4 of a drop every 7 days (0.025mg per week) using a 0.5ml insulin syringe, 4 notches on the syringe correspond to 1 drop, 2 notches are half a drop, 1 notch is 1/4 of drop.

To date I have removed 5 drops (0.5mg), I have 5 drops left to finish the withdrawal, at the moment I am on 2 drops in the morning and 3 in the evening, from here on I would have decided to slow down a bit and I will remove 1/4 of a drop every 14 days and no longer every 7 days, so it will be more or less half a drop per month = 0.05 mg per month).
Basically, it will take 10 months to remove these last 5 drops (0.5mg).

This is my plan, obviously I have absolutely no idea if it is worth switching to a daily microtaping and if this can "trick the brain better", I am not an expert, my thoughts went to daily microtaping in the hope that this will make my tinnitus calms down but I don't know.

That seems like a good system to me. I can see no advantages of 'microtapering' in your situation - it likely will be less accurate and might cause you significant problems. Most people (even around here) withdraw from clonazepam, one-quarter of a pill at a time (0.125mg). You are making cuts of 0.0125mg, one-tenth of the size, are using a reliable system, and clonazepam's reasonably long half life helps to further smooth the transition between cuts even further. If it ain't broken, don't fix it!

I would only further suggest that you do not stretch out your taper unnecessarily. 10 months to taper off 0.5mg clonazepam is much longer then a most can manage (but I would not say all). As we suggest to all members, taper off at a rate according to how you react and feel.

[[Ma...]]

59 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

That seems like a good system to me. I can see no advantages of 'microtapering' in your situation - it likely will be less accurate and might cause you significant problems. Most people (even around here) withdraw from clonazepam, one-quarter of a pill at a time (0.125mg). You are making cuts of 0.0125mg, one-tenth of the size, are using a reliable system, and clonazepam's reasonably long half life helps to further smooth the transition between cuts even further. If it ain't broken, don't fix it!

I would only further suggest that you do not stretch out your taper unnecessarily. 10 months to taper off 0.5mg clonazepam is much longer then a most can manage (but I would not say all). As we suggest to all members, taper off at a rate according to how you react and feel.

Thank u Colin, I'm happy to hear this because I'm not very eager to start diluting and being a mathematician because I wouldn't know where to start, it's probably more difficult to think than to do but for me the micro taper seems like a real mess.
Colin sorry only if I make a clarification, my cuts are 0.025, not 0.0125, therefore only 5 times lower, not 10, if you think they are still good and your opinion does not change I follow your advice and continue like this without doing micro taper, I took the liberty of pointing this out because I want to make sure if your opinion remains the same.

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Sw...]]

@[Ma...] just to hit the topic on tinnitus, I had it before my taper. It got BAD. It’s been a few months and it’s really improved now. Still not baseline but probably 70% there. Hope this helps 

[[Ma...]]

20 minutes ago, [[S...] said:

@[Ma...] just to hit the topic on tinnitus, I had it before my taper. It got BAD. It’s been a few months and it’s really improved now. Still not baseline but probably 70% there. Hope this helps 

Thanks so much, it helps, I hope it gets even better, mine has started to rise in the last few days, in the first months of withdrawal it didn't give me any problems.

But like me, did you have tinnitus before taking benzos?

was it always high throughout the taper?

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Co...]]

4 hours ago, [[M...] said:

Thank u Colin, I'm happy to hear this because I'm not very eager to start diluting and being a mathematician because I wouldn't know where to start, it's probably more difficult to think than to do but for me the micro taper seems like a real mess.
Colin sorry only if I make a clarification, my cuts are 0.025, not 0.0125, therefore only 5 times lower, not 10, if you think they are still good and your opinion does not change I follow your advice and continue like this without doing micro taper, I took the liberty of pointing this out because I want to make sure if your opinion remains the same.

 

Apologies. So:

1 drop = 0.1 mg clonazepam
0.25 drops = 0.025mg

Whereas, a quarter of 0.5mg pill = 0.125mg

As you stated, a fifth of the dose.

I think, for most people, cuts of that size would be very manageable. The majority of people, at lower doses, make reductions of clonazepam of 0.125mg, or even 0.25mg, and for the most part, they manage.

Keep it simple. It is working for you now, and in all probability, it will continue to work for you going forward. Unnecessarily altering your liquid only introduces possible errors: both true errors;* and unreliability through faulty methods.**

* Much as my calculation error.
** Non-diluted benzodiazepine; unreliable suspension; etc.

 

[[Ma...]]

31 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

Apologies. So:

1 drop = 0.1 mg clonazepam
0.25 drops = 0.025mg

Whereas, a quarter of 0.5mg pill = 0.125mg

As you stated, a fifth of the dose.

I think, for most people, cuts of that size would be very manageable. The majority of people, at lower doses, make reductions of clonazepam of 0.125mg, or even 0.25mg, and for the most part, they manage.

Keep it simple. It is working for you now, and in all probability, it will continue to work for you going forward. Unnecessarily altering your liquid only introduces possible errors: both true errors;* and unreliability through faulty methods.**

* Much as my calculation error.
** Non-diluted benzodiazepine; unreliable suspension; etc.

Thank you Colin, u are very kind.
I'll carry on like this, I'll also try to continue removing 1/4 of a drop every 7 days and not every 14 days as I had thought and I'll see how it goes, I've read that in the final stages there may be more difficulties so if I realize that it's going badly I can stabilize and extend the times if necessary.

For the moment it's working, I thought I would have more difficulty to be honest because when I started the withdrawal I had already entered into tolerance, I felt that the drug was having much less effect and I should have increased the dose, but instead I decided to withdraw

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by [Ma...]

[[Li...]]

Hello @[Ma...].  To clarify for you and future readers of this thread, the Rivotril (clonazepam) liquid you have described is indeed a solution not a suspension.  For example, below is the drug data information sheet for Rivotril® 2.5 mg/mL oral solution (drops) available in New Zealand.  As you can see, the excipients (ingredients) listed on page 15 are the same as the ones you have listed upthread.

Rivotril® 2.5 mg/mL oral solution (drops)
https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/Datasheet/r/RivotrilOralSol.pdf

[[Kh...]]

12 hours ago, [[M...] said:

thanks for the support.
I've read that the slower you go, the less affected the tinnitus is but I go quite slowly but my tinnitus has increased so maybe I'm not slow enough or maybe what they told me is wrong, I don't know

From what you say I understand that in your opinion the tinnitus always has an increase during the withdrawal, regardless of how fast you do it, so your point of view is that I will not get any reduction in the tinnitus until I am above the drug and at that point the quicker you remove it the sooner you stop suffering, did I understand correctly?

What speed rate are your tapers at, if I may ask?

My taper info is in my profile history 🙏. It’s not real scientific.  I am going as body allows.   Tinnitus seems to be only symptom ( and poor sleep). My tinnitus began after ear infection, which somehow coincided with shingles vaccine.  Not suggesting cause and effect but…

Edited November 10, 2023 by [Kh...]

[[Sw...]]

@[Ma...] yes I had tinnitus before and it was not bothersome. The withdrawal has ramped it up and made it high pitched for me. I’m sure it will go away 

[[me...]]

Hi everyone. When I started with tinnitus 2years ago I figured it was my benzo  I was in tolerance after  learning on this forum I put two and two together.  🙏

[[Kh...]]

1 hour ago, [[m...] said:

Hi everyone. When I started with tinnitus 2years ago I figured it was my benzo  I was in tolerance after  learning on this forum I put two and two together.  🙏

Hopefully its under control now for you and hope for us

 

[[me...]]

Hi KhunKit hope you doing ok it's bearable 😏