Feel after cut

[[al...]]

Hi, I'm currently tapering Valium.  5% every two weeks.   Been feeling this last cut but it takes around 10 days for me to feel a cut, Was wondering how long it took others to feel symptoms after a cut?   This is my first cut on the valium since I stabilized on 20 mgs.   Not sure if I'm in a wave or if I just feel cuts later down the line with valium.      Thanks in advance for many replies, I appreciate it. 

[[Fa...]]

@[al...] I feel as if I’ve personally felt increased symptoms days 10-11 both times after I’ve switched dosage form (2mg tablet to 2mg/ml liquid).  I also made small daily reductions within these periods which didn’t help either.

With that said, I think it is possible for some people to feel a cut up to 10 days after change in dosage form, or amount, with diazepam due to its long half-life.  As a result, I am now planning to hold before, and after, I switch dosage form.  

I would encourage you to keep record of these symptoms, times, when they subside/stabilize etc.. If you cut again, and symptoms hit at (or around) day 10 again, you will obtain data for you to know going forward with your personal experiment - as that is what this whole experience is.  You just happen to be the chief investigator. 

[[al...]]

@[Fa...] thank you for that great response ...    that helped!!

 

 

 

[[al...]]

@[Fa...]  how long did you feel symptoms after you cut 10 days into it?

[[Fa...]]

@[al...] My situation is complicated and personal (as most are).  I am currently making a series of small daily reductions.  I am still learning how to best listen to my body and implement holds within my series of daily reductions.  I have an odd feeling I will never have it fully ‘figured out’ and that’s ok.  I will just have to adjust as I go.  Remaining as high ‘functioning’ as possible is the only thing I am concerned with. 

I unfortunately am mostly always symptomatic; however, I usually gauge how I am doing by my sleep.  This is my most troubling, persistent and difficult symptom that seems to have the largest effect on my other symptoms and ‘functionality’.

If my sleep is trending negatively, I slow down my series of reductions.  If slowing down doesn’t seem to help, I hold.  I’ve held for 13 days at one point since I began small daily reductions.  That seemed to help, and I am doing fairly decent (all considering) at the moment.

I hope something in this is helpful to you.  Again, it is all very personal so I encourage you to keep a good record of your ‘experiment’.  It will help you, and could potentially help others.  I would assume any increased symptoms from your cut will subside and ‘stabilize’ within a week or two. 

[[al...]]

Thank you @[Fa...]

[[Ko...]]

are you doing a linear taper or hyperbolic tapering with the  5% cuts?

I just started my valium taper from 10 to 9.5. I am wondering if I should do a slow version of Ashton method with linear cuts or go more slowly with hyperbolic 5% cuts...

[[al...]]

I've been making 5%  cuts  using a jewelers  scale,  so the cuts are based on the weight of the tablet.  I've been taking 5% off whatever the last weight of the tablet was.  You can go as quickly as your symptoms allow

[[Ko...]]

My prescriber won't let me do cutting and weighing on a scale- she would switch me to liquid valium if I decide to do the hyperbolic method as you are doing. 

[[Fa...]]

@[Ko...], just a point of clarification, if I may.  @[al...] is currently reducing his diazepam 'exponentially'.  What we know about 'hyperbolic' tapering regimens is that they are reasonably well approximated by an exponential tapering regimen; however, in theory, an exponential taper will never end.  Exponential tapers are likely to provide more convenient calculations, and good general guidelines (particularly at higher doses); however, at some point in one's taper, the exponential tapering regimen must be abandoned (or one will never complete the taper).  Hyperbolic tapering is directly related to dosage amounts and their relative percentage of GABA-A occupancy.  In essence, the same effect on the brain occurs when one drops from 100mg to 75mg of diazepam as when dropping from 1mg to 0mg of Diazepam.

If interested, and have the time, I have attached a video where Dr. Mark Horowitz discusses hyperbolic tapering.  Everyone is different however, and as @[al...]pointed out - letting symptoms guide the taper is the most important 'rule' imo. For example, I am currently only able to reduce by approximately half of Dr. Horowitz's 'slow diazepam taper schedule' he outlines near the end of the video.  I sustained a substantial 'injury' last year from drastic changes in medication doses though, where others have not.  I suspect I would be able to move quicker if this 'injury' did not happen to me.  I may, or may not, be able to speed up my pace as I go; however, this information is still useful to me, and I am aware that I am on the 'steep' portion of the hyperbolic 'curve' at my current dose of 8mg diazepam.  

 

 

[[Ko...]]

@[Fa...] thanks - I have looked superficially at this video before but didn't recall any sample slow diazepam taper. I am interested to have another look at it. 

I know that letting symptoms be the guide is the most important thing but it seems that valium is a tricky one with the lag time.  I have read a lot about people cruising downwards on a weekly basis only to be hit with a crash in which they are very sick.  That is so very frightening to me! What is your current percentage rate?

 

[[Fa...]]

@[Ko...] I’m not tapering by exponential percentage, though I am ‘tracking’ it, and keeping ‘suggested ranges’ in mind.  Fwiw - From Aug. 22 to Sep. 22, I reduced at an exponential rate of 5.5% for the month.

I am more or less reducing .21mg every 2 weeks, via alternating daily reductions of .02mg/ml and .01mg/ml, with the intent of holding 10-14 days at .5mg intervals.  I am going to let me body tell me when it is time to adjust.

My current ‘taper strategy’ fits into the ‘molds’ of suggested exponential taper regimens (and associated hyperbolic regimens).  I also plan to hold longer when I change dosage form (e.g., swapping a 2mg tablet for 2mg/ml liquid).

I anticipate at some point I will have to adjust closer to .14mg, or even .1mg, every 2 weeks.  I hope/plan to never ‘actively’ reduce less than .1mg every 2 weeks. 

[[al...]]

@[Fa...] thanks for posting that video...       i learned a lot of great information from it.  You gotta go slow at the end!  

[[me...]]

On 22/09/2023 at 19:35, [[F...] said:

@[Ko...], just a point of clarification, if I may.  @[al...] is currently reducing his diazepam 'exponentially'.  What we know about 'hyperbolic' tapering regimens is that they are reasonably well approximated by an exponential tapering regimen; however, in theory, an exponential taper will never end.  Exponential tapers are likely to provide more convenient calculations, and good general guidelines (particularly at higher doses); however, at some point in one's taper, the exponential tapering regimen must be abandoned (or one will never complete the taper).  Hyperbolic tapering is directly related to dosage amounts and their relative percentage of GABA-A occupancy.  In essence, the same effect on the brain occurs when one drops from 100mg to 75mg of diazepam as when dropping from 1mg to 0mg of Diazepam.

If interested, and have the time, I have attached a video where Dr. Mark Horowitz discusses hyperbolic tapering.  Everyone is different however, and as @[al...]pointed out - letting symptoms guide the taper is the most important 'rule' imo. For example, I am currently only able to reduce by approximately half of Dr. Horowitz's 'slow diazepam taper schedule' he outlines near the end of the video.  I sustained a substantial 'injury' last year from drastic changes in medication doses though, where others have not.  I suspect I would be able to move quicker if this 'injury' did not happen to me.  I may, or may not, be able to speed up my pace as I go; however, this information is still useful to me, and I am aware that I am on the 'steep' portion of the hyperbolic 'curve' at my current dose of 8mg diazepam.  

Faith hope and love......I had a nasty fall which I blame on clonazapam ended up in hospital for 3monthd snapped my ankle snapped my upper arm broken ribs punctured lung and a bad head injury and yet my gp won't have it.   Hope you heal soon🧜‍♀️

[[Fa...]]

Hi, @[me...].  I'm so sorry to hear about your fall!  Most GP's will not acknowledge that benzodiazepines cause the harm that they do.  This class of medication has it's benefit for short term use, sedation for surgeries etc.. though taking them longer than 2-4 weeks is a recipe for disaster imo.