Taper help

[[or...]]

Just one more thing @[fo...] everyone is different in their times of tapering, it's a personal decision I'm sort of learning from others, to figure along the way what to taper.  Like if I felt really good at 1 week, honestly going about my daily routines easily, I might taper after 7 days.  But it if feel more sxs even after 14 days, I would hold the same taper amount longer til I felt stable again.

I've had very mild sxs through the 5 months. I think the worst one I had was after this last cut, and I developed an ache in my left leg.  Felt kind of like a flu "ache" but it was a throbbing one.  It was the muscle I'm certain, just babied it for a few days, and it's gone now.

 

[[Pa...]]

All threads started by @[fo...] on the taper board have been merged, lets keep all of this great information in one thread, thanks. 

[[or...]]

1 hour ago, [[F...] said:

@[or...] I've attached the thread to which I was referring.  It is a more recent thread that @[fo...] had started a few days ago in which it seems she is leaning towards a dry micro taper.  I think this is a great plan by the way.  I have witnessed 3-4 active members walk off using this method with success in the past 10 months since joining this wonderful group of people.  @[Pa...] may be able to help merge these threads; however, it is not the end of the world at this point.

@[fo...], I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time with long covid and dealing with tolerance to clonazepam.  Most members (minus a fortunate few) who find this site are already experiencing tolerance symptoms and/or their respective benzodiazepine has caused an injury (hence the search and joining of this community).  It was certainly the case for me as I trusted my doctor and was not given informed consent prior to starting the medication. 

May I ask you a few more questions?  How did you choose 8am and 3pm for your dosing schedule?  What are your most troubling symptoms?  Is sleep not an issue?   

 

4 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

All threads started by @[fo...] on the taper board have been merged, lets keep all of this great information in one thread, thanks. 

Thanks so much @[Pa...]

[[fo...]]

Oregonlady I always dosed once daily and did fine. I took my dose in the morning at 7 am. I slept wonderfully. Long Covid changed everything. I split my dose to 9 am and 6 pm and my body was furious!! I was then told I could back the evening dose towards the morning dose if I want to make it one dose again. I started moving it back and landed at 3 because my body settled a bit and it still helped me sleep. Long Covid stuck me in fight or flight and I got zero sleep for 2 months. I sleep 4-5 hours now. I honestly don’t get relief from either dose as far as I can tell. I think it’s mainly causing physical symptoms like my full body neuropathic pain and muscle tightness and tremor.  I’m still just needing to understand a dry microtaper plan. Then I’ll be ready to start. I do want to go slow because I have my daughter getting married this year and I won’t miss a moment of her joy.  

[[or...]]

Ok, everything I know about the dry taper is here now.  Study the info, including what others have said, and then if you need more info, ask very specific questions about the info you have read here on your threads that @[Pa...] merged for you, all in one place.  Did you see my video, plus the one by the man that was on a dry taper.  You can set your dose times anytime that works for you.  I only mention how I do mine is once in the a.m.

Let us all know how it's going, and just gather your tools you might need like I show in the video   If I confused you don't worry about asking for clarity, anything like that, I'll be around Denise

[[Fa...]]

Hi again, @[fo...].  You must be so proud, happy, and excited to see your daughter's joy at her wedding!  My kids certainly keep me fighting.

Is your intent to remain at 2 doses?  If you can get by on one dose per day without interdose issues (like you had previously been taking it) that will be easiest.  Many members need to dose twice per day with clonazepam to avert interdose symptoms, while others can get away with one dose.  It is fine either way.

I, like you, don't get any relief from my daily dose of diazepam, however, I know it is my current (and unfortunate) lifeline.  I choose to take my dose of diazepam (longer half life than clonazepam) at night before bed since sleep is my largest issue even though I don't perceive any "relief" from my dose.

I believe you stated up thread that your husband could help you with filing and weighing.  This will be helpful (and give you peace of mind) if he understands the process as well.  If you want to begin your taper with a dry micro taper of 3% every 14 days the math would be as follows:

1) 1mg clonazepam (2 teva .5mg tablets) will weigh .340 on your GEM20 scale.  

2) Multiply .340 (total weight) by .03 (percent you want to taper over 14 days) which equals .0102 (total weight you want to taper over 14 days)

3) .01 (rounded total weight to taper over 14 days) / 14 (days to spread taper over) = .0007 (daily reduction)

4) Round .0007 up to .001 (revised daily reduction) as this is the smallest amount your scale will measure to.

*Please note since we rounded up to .001 from .0007 this changes our reduction percentage over 14 days.  However, all we have to do is implement a hold for 3 days over that period to reach our desired percentage.  For example if we reduced .001 every day for 14 days our weight would be .326 (down from .340).  .326 divided by .340 would be a 4.1% reduction over 14 days if we do not hold for a few days.  However, .329 divided by .340 would be a 3.2% reduction.  This would entail 11 days of cutting and 3 days of holding.  That could look like 4 days cutting by .001 tablet weight, holding 1 day, 3 days cutting by .001 tablet weight, holding 1 day, 4 days cutting again at .001 tablet weight and holding again one day on the 14th day.   This would end you at .329 tablet weight after 14 days.  You would then repeat the process with your new weight of .329.

**Even easier moving forward (if this first experiment is successful), you could just subtract .011 (the amount we just reduced the previous 14 days) from .329 (our new current total weight) and repeat.  This equates to a 3.3% reduction.  So you could just implement the same taper regime from above for the following 14 days.  Eventually you will have to add another day of holding into your 14 days or your taper rate will continue to increase slightly. 

I completely understand if you have questions.  Please keep asking them until you feel comfortable.  Until then hold your dose steady and try your best to determine how many doses per day you want to take (or your body will allow) and what time of day you are going to take your doses.  If 2 doses, most members will take them 12 hours apart roughly.  Hopefully some of this is helpful to you.  Wish you the best.

 

[[fo...]]

Thank you so much. Numbers just don’t compute with me right now so I’ll have my husband take a look at this and I so much appreciate your taking the time to do that. I will plan to keep my doses at 8 and 3. My body is so ultra sensitive I don’t want to change anything more. I actually have 1 mg tablets that I split in half. I can switch to 0.5 but I don’t want to change brands. So if I wanted to decrease daily by 0.001 then can I cut 10 days, hold 4, cut 10, hold 4 etc? the other way overwhelmed my brain 😵 

You had stated in a post that you have seen several successful members that did a dry microtaper. Can you tell me if those resemble this plan at all or what that looked like? I thank you for your help. 
 

[[Fa...]]

No problem at all, @[fo...].  Have your husband read and see if he, and you, understand the concept.  

I believe switching to .5mg Teva tablets vs. 1mg Teva tablet would be ideal if your prescriber will change your prescription for your next refill.  I completely agree that you do not want to change brands.  If they are agreeable to your request, and you have leftover 1mg tablets, I would continue taking those for a bit and postpone your taper so you can build a small supply of .5mg tablets.

You can certainly decrease by .001 daily for 10 days and then hold for 4 days.  This would be reducing total daily dose weight from .340 to .330 over the first 14 days which equates to a 2.9% reduction over that period (.340 - .330 = .010.  .010 divided by .340 = .029 or 2.9%).  However, eventually you will have to adjust this schedule or increase your reduction % over a 14 day period.  Substituting a day of cutting .001 with a day of holding will reduce your reduction percentage as your total weight decreases.  Just pick your 8am dose or your 3pm dose to start shaving/filing from.  It is personal preference on how much you reduce one dose before reducing the other dose.

Yes, the member hereforhelp for example contributed to your thread and he used a dry daily microtaper.  You can click on his profile and go to his history.  He ranged from 5% over 14 days to a little over 10% over 14 days near the end of his taper.  Members can adjust their taper rate throughout their taper based on their symptoms and how they are responding to a previous series of cuts.  I have attached a direct link to this section of his profile where he details his taper info.

https://benzobuddies.org/profile/319241-[he...]/?tab=field_core_pfield_34

[[fo...]]

Thank you. I so much appreciate your time. Right now, reading all the numbers and decimals and percentages and need to change the amt pulled to stay within a certain percentage etc is like trying to read a foreign language I don’t understand 😜 it just doesn’t compute. 

i know I’m frustrating.  

So to me, microtaper means a small daily reduction. Correct? Rather than a cut and hold 2 weeks and repeat. I just see many people have better success with these tiny minute cuts daily. It seems smoother on the CNS than to cut, withdraw, stabilize and repeat. 

so you stated I could taper down by 0.001 daily for 10 days and hold 4 days. But eventually I would need to change that. That’s due to the percentage pulled? This is why I’m praying a liquid taper will be accepted. No thinking…..just pulling.  

I do want to have a plan written that I understand. I’ll go over and look at the link you included. I don’t think I would ever be comfortable pulling 10% in 2 weeks time. However, I don’t want to drag a taper into 2 years. 
 

im obviously very lost. 😢 

[[or...]]

I don't want to put down any of the replies here, but I was so foggy when I got here, and still am when it comes to numbers.

I suggest you try and focus on something else for at least a day @[fo...].  You've got some simple ways of doing this, and the one way is to taper a small percentage, then weigh the dose, not what you cut off.  When you get down to very low doses, like, say under 10% of your dose is all you have left then it will be a bit harder but far from impossible.  I've been weighing even the tiny crumbs and you can add something like a dime to the scale, weigh it, then add the crumbs.  Then just subtract the weight of the dime and you have your dose weight.

Try not to future trip, try to take it one day at a time, practice trimming off an aspirin on your scale. And that is also practice on using the razor blade or a nail-file.  You can shave really tiny amount off with a nail-file.

Once you have your % to take off each of your whole tablet's weight, each day you trim that same amount for as long as you want to hold the dose.  If it's the numbers that are worst for you to figure, I found getting my dose was easist by weight because the scales says it right in front of my face.  I don't have to calculate anything, DenisePS other than coming over to your house and doing it for you, which I would if I were a doctor that made house-calls

[[or...]]

I've just made another video that's uploading now @[fo...] This one I was able to set up my phone to take a video of how I cut my dose with razor blade and scale.  It may help you, but may just not be what you want to choose for your dry-taper.  It's ok, my feelings won't be hurt, I just want to help you get started with "my" easy way which won't be the same for everyone You still have to choose when you are ready to do it.

Again, if you have questions, please ask them so people can zero in on what it is you need to understand Denise PS below I'll put new video. It turned out longer than I wanted but hadn't prepared well enough, honestly just needed to get it done as best I could for you:

 

[[Fa...]]

4 hours ago, [[f...] said:

So to me, microtaper means a small daily reduction. Correct? Rather than a cut and hold 2 weeks and repeat. I just see many people have better success with these tiny minute cuts daily. It seems smoother on the CNS than to cut, withdraw, stabilize and repeat. 

In essence the answer is yes.  Micro tapers can include holds as well to meet certain percentage reductions over a certain period (like the one I outlined for you above).  Everyone is different in terms of how their CNS responds and taper strategies. 

I understand this all seems complicated.  To keep things as simple as possible for now, and help build your confidence in the process, have you considered just making a small reduction using the scale you have already purchased?  Say 3% and just hold that dose for a couple weeks?  I doubt you will feel much different and believe it may help give you some confidence.  This is just an idea.  You have to feel comfortable most importantly.

You would just multiply your total daily dose weight of .340 (2 Teva .5mg tablets) by .03 (3 percent).  That equals a .010 reduction in tablet weight.  So you would subtract .010 from .340.  That equals a new total daily dose weight (with two .5mg teva clonazepam tablets) of .330.  You could just take one dose at full tablet weight and strength (.170 on scale and .5mg in pill strength) and the other tablet you would shave off .010, bringing the weight of the 2nd tablet to .160.

Then just repeat this daily for 2 weeks and track your doses and symptoms in a log.  Do not seek out symptoms if that makes sense or you may invite in problems.  Confidence in your taper strategy and moving forward is of paramount importance before proceeding.

[[fo...]]

I thank those members that have been engaging with me. I have had so much CNS damage from long Covid that it’s become impossible to grasp numbers and percentages etc so I’m very sorry if I seem entirely incapable (right now I obviously am ). 
I am wanting a dry microtaper plan. I really do not like the cut and hold plan. I am hoping to try a water taper and add water along the way to slow it down but I am not certain my body will adjust to water as my CNS is so sensitive. I need a dry taper plan in place that I feel confident in. 
I would love to shave off a tiny amt daily and know I may need to hold a few days to make this work. I have been messaged regarding a plan that was shave off .001 x 4 days, hold 4 days, shave off .001 x4 days etc. I also have been contacted by a member that shaves off .001 x 10 days, holds 4 days, shaves off .001 x 10 days, holds 4 etc. 

Do either of those plans sound good? Does anyone else have an idea how to dry microtaper not using those 2 weeks holds but coming down a minute amt daily? 
 

I appreciate you all and as I said I appreciate the time already given me by members. Thank you! 

[[or...]]

I listen to my body and taper/adjust taper accordingly. No one can tell you what is right for you, I know it sounds like you have to be your own guinea pig, but just listening to your body is how most of us (I think most of us) rather than try to stick to the "perfect" plan come hell or high water is just not logical to me.  It was at first, but it finally got through my benzo brain that I could choose as I go according to symptoms or lack thereof.

[[fo...]]

I understand what you are saying, but for my severely damaged brain and body still fighting long Covid…..I need a plan. I know I will need to be flexible, but I need to go into this with a plan to follow. So I’m hoping someone had dry microtaper advice or history that can assist me. I’m thrilled that you have found something that works for you. I just need a plan at this point.  

[[fo...]]

Hello. I am sorry, I’ve been offered h help but this long Covid brain isn’t doing well with taking in info. I will keep my questions clear. I am on 1 mg K for 12 years. I prefer to microtaper instead of cut and hold. 
1. If I shave off .001 mg daily from my 1 mg tablet, can I do this until the end or does that end up with a too quick of taper at the end? 
2. I could try a liquid Compounding pharmacy and was given a formula of .1 mg /10 ml. If I decreased .02 ml daily is this a good pace? I was told that was a 500 day taper. 
 

Do either of these plans seem doable? I thank anyone for the help with the math. Sorry to bother again. 

[[fo...]]

Faith Hope Love….I am studying your previous well thought out response with my husband today.  we thank you for your time spent in sending that. 
you had stated I could cut .001 for 10 days and hold 4 but as I lower I would need to make changes or hold an extra day to keep percentages lower. Do you know where in the taper I would need to do that? Would tapering 9 and holding 5 lower it enough? Im very ready to start but the dry microtaper plan still eludes so we are trying to work on this. Thank you 

[[Fa...]]

Hi, @[fo...].  I'm glad you reviewed with your husband.  It is great you have someone to assist with your taper.  Having a second set of eyes is beneficial when dealing with, and confirming, the accuracy of your taper, math etc....

You are going to have to pick a method and confidently proceed.  Most everyone has to adjust their taper and/or hold at some point so there is no set 'plan' for anyone.  Assuming you are starting with two .5mg Teva tablets, total daily tablet dose weight reductions of .001 for 10 days and holding for 4 days would be a perfectly fine place to start.  I am not going to type out all the math again from earlier in this thread, however this would be a 2.9% reduction over the first 14 day stretch.

If all goes well, just repeat the process.  My fear is that you and your husband may be struggling with the math perhaps and this would be problematic to commence and track your taper.  Do not start tapering without an understanding of the math and percentage reductions.  

1st stage (or 14 day period) - total daily tablet dose weight from .340 to .330 = 2.9% reduction

2nd stage (or 14 day period) - total daily tablet dose weight from .330 to .320 = 3% reduction

3rd stage (or 14 day period) - total daily tablet dose weight from .320 to .310 = 3.1% reduction

4th stage (or 14 day period) - total daily tablet dose weight from .310 to .300 = 3.2% reduction

No one is going to know when you will need to replace a day of cutting with a day of holding.  Your body and symptoms will be guiding you.  Ie. if your symptom severity increases, and does not abate, you would know to hold for awhile until you feel stabilized.  You just need to keep a log of your taper and symptoms.  This is all one big experiment and you and your husband will be the chief investigators.      

 

[[fo...]]

Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. The part of this that complicates my issue is that this long Covid presents all of the same symptoms I would suffer in withdrawal. My autonomic nervous system isn’t working correctly, I am stuck in fight or flight, etc etc. I’ll never know which is withdrawal and which is long Covid but being that I’ve been in this place a year…..maybe my brain will handle withdrawal symptoms easier. (Thinking positive). Thanks again 

[[fo...]]

Faith Hope Love……can you tell me how long this taper would take if I were to stay at .001 x 10 days and hold 4? Just so I have a guesstimate? 

[[Fa...]]

10 minutes ago, [[f...] said:

Faith Hope Love……can you tell me how long this taper would take if I were to stay at .001 x 10 days and hold 4? Just so I have a guesstimate? 

You will most likely have to adjust at some point so I do not know.  Please do not get bogged down with these details.  Your goal is to slowly head towards 0 and remain functional.  If it helps you any, .001 daily cuts with no holds for 340 days would take you to 0.