The Long Hold Support Group

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NJ and Scaredie: I think crossing to valium makes sense--esp as kpin brands are shifting. I'm fairly certain I could not have gotten this far down on kpin. Dr stressed over and over that valium was easier to step off of after a long taper. I was a MESS as .32 kpin. That said, I did start Lexapro a few months ago b/c I was feeling very depressed about this whole ride but it's helped my mood and my sleep so I think that may have been a necessary step for me to get through this taper. I'll taper that after I am done with valium. Of course, everyone is different but I, personally, had no problems crossing over--BUT I think you may have to updose a bit once you make the cross.

 

Stut: Thanks, as always, for being awesome.

 

Can't: Hope you are feeling better?

[[In...]]

So do we have docs here in the US who cross folks to Valium when they are on high doses of any benzo?

 

I think we do, but few and far between they are. Most docs I’ve seen or read about don’t want to go higher than 40 mg of V. And for xanax and clonazepam, that means 2 mg for X and 2 mg of K.

 

And then there’s that problems of what to do about the leftover X or K if you’re on a higher level than 2 mg.

 

And the issues of V being a super “addictive drug” which it isn’t, but not very docs seem to get that in the US.

 

And last but not least, can people tolerate V? Not everyone can as everyone is different. A lot can. And a lot can’t. Different benzos, different receptors being hit. It’s that different brain, different person type of thing.

[[Sc...]]

NJ and Scaredie: I think crossing to valium makes sense--esp as kpin brands are shifting. I'm fairly certain I could not have gotten this far down on kpin. Dr stressed over and over that valium was easier to step off of after a long taper. I was a MESS as .32 kpin. That said, I did start Lexapro a few months ago b/c I was feeling very depressed about this whole ride but it's helped my mood and my sleep so I think that may have been a necessary step for me to get through this taper. I'll taper that after I am done with valium. Of course, everyone is different but I, personally, had no problems crossing over--BUT I think you may have to updose a bit once you make the cross.

 

Stut: Thanks, as always, for being awesome.

 

Can't: Hope you are feeling better?

Thanks blue

I know this will annoy people, sorry.

I’ve taken lexapro twice. It pooped out last time it worked, made me tired, but I cried & worried less, could function better in the world & wasn’t so self focused on all of my problems, was more open & up for doing normal enjoyable things. Then last year I tried it, brand for months & it never worked. Nothing did. Mind telling me your dose? How long till it kicked in? Have you taken antidepressants before?

Be well

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Intend: Agreed. When I did the cross over I updosed a bit on the valium and then continued to taper the kpin slowly until I phased it out and was only on the valium. I was able to taper the kpin much faster that way with no s/x. The updose in valium must have cancelled them out. Not to say tapering valium has been a breeze, but it's doable---Perhaps the combo of kpin and valium would be enough as I agree, it would be hard to get a prescriber to script that much v.

 

Scaredie: I am taking 5mg Lexapro. Have never taken anti-depressants before. It took about 3 weeks to phase in and it was a bumpy 3 weeks--but I am feeling less depressed and am sleeping

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Thanks blue

[[In...]]

blue and Sc,

 

Just doing some considering myself here. I started on 3 msg K myself. Had crossed from 3 mg of X. Was a few years back before I knew anything about benzos. That doc thought that 3 mg X no big deal.

 

I mean if doc doesn’t know a high dose, does patient know it is? Not always.

 

And when I crossed to K, the pharmacist got concerned about which one was I on. X or K as I needed some X along with K to make that cross. A lot of times, these docs don’t want to Rx 2 benzos at once. Probably has to do with various different state laws.

 

Also  blue, noted your reference to all these K company consolidations. I do think you’re right about that. Somethings happening for sure. Just not sure I could subject my poor brain to anymore crosses.

 

All a ton of this happened just cause. I actually tapered myself down to @2mg X by dry cut. No problems until I started going too fast. Won he brand new iPad at a fundraiser. Started researching on it. Saw my sx of w/d from X, and connected dots. That started too much research. Too much research.

 

Some is good, some not so good. Got myself in a pickle.

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Intend:

I didn't know either. 1 mg kpin didn't sound like much to me. 20 mg of valium, though? Huh? I had NO idea. I mean, this may sound off but I know there are people who stock pile just in case doctor cuts them off. I was worried about this happening as well, though it didn't happen. Any dr worth paying needs to understand about equivalincies. But I guess what I am saying is that you may be able to get on to only Valium faster than you think if you updose and begin to cut the kpin. But again, it may not work for you. I was surprised at how easily I was able to drop the kpin once I did this. I held at the 10mg valium until I was very stable and was able to get down to 3mg with no problems. Then, the s/x began--but I don't really think there is any way around it--maybe the lucky ones.

[[Tr...]]

So do we have docs here in the US who cross folks to Valium when they are on high doses of any benzo?

 

I think we do, but few and far between they are. Most docs I’ve seen or read about don’t want to go higher than 40 mg of V. And for xanax and clonazepam, that means 2 mg for X and 2 mg of K.

 

And then there’s that problems of what to do about the leftover X or K if you’re on a higher level than 2 mg.

 

And the issues of V being a super “addictive drug” which it isn’t, but not very docs seem to get that in the US.

 

And last but not least, can people tolerate V? Not everyone can as everyone is different. A lot can. And a lot can’t. Different benzos, different receptors being hit. It’s that different brain, different person type of thing.

 

I'm from the US and Dr's here usually won't cross Xanax users to valium, they cross them over to klonopin. It's so frustrating because the Dr's don't really know how to taper safely here. It's been my experience so far where I live that the Dr's are idiots and I have to do my own research. I've learned more sound information here then I have from any Dr.

Trish

 

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blue,

 

Appreciate that. I’m on @1.5 K so maybe cross would be ok. Just had such awful cross to K because of that same doctor. I’ve never felt very well on K since. Been switched between 4 generic brands K after cross. Somewhat of a mess.

 

Tapering Sandoz K right now. Have had to slow way down because my poor cns is traumatitized. Not kidding about that.

 

Just not sure my poor brain could handle another cross. I have to go slow. Also never started over with all these switches. Just kept dose where it was as I adjusted to switch. I can definitely figure out how to taper one while I cross. But doing slow liquid taper on K. Kind of see myself with fridge and a bunch of jars full of 2 liquidized benzos. I do have a bunch of Sandoz though. And with all this consolidations of companies, it may become necessary.

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Hi Scaredie,

I was on Klonopin for about 6 months I think? I was originally on Xanax and switched to Klonopin very easily, did not even need to do a slow crossover, I just switched and was fine. Then after about 6 months I learned about Ashton and brought the manual into my Dr who agreed to cross me over to Valium. So I did the crossover the Ashton way and I really had no problems with it. Valium made me a bit more sleepy at first but I really didn't mind that, I would way rather sleep away my problems. Then I began my taper and that's been no cakewalk but I am glad to be doing it on Valium and not K.

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So true trish.

 

k is that go to drug here in the USA. My doc is in a practice with several pdocs and 2 PAs. All prescribe controlled substances, but not opiates.

 

But I’ve seen other patients walk out with Rxs for K. My doc is very understanding, totally is benzo wise, and is fine with liquid taper. Knows about V also. Gets the dependence difference with addiction also. Knows all the generic Ks also. Wealth of info.

 

But you’re right. Uncommon. I actually learned a ton here, but also learned a ton on the old benzo detox site before they went “out of business.”

[[In...]]

OK,

 

I’m actually from Oregon myself. They do have a bunch of knowledgeable docs in Oregon. Good medical and law schools.

 

I miss Oregon. Attended Oregon State in Corvallis. Miss Corvallis too.

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Hi Scaredie,

I was on Klonopin for about 6 months I think? I was originally on Xanax and switched to Klonopin very easily, did not even need to do a slow crossover, I just switched and was fine. Then after about 6 months I learned about Ashton and brought the manual into my Dr who agreed to cross me over to Valium. So I did the crossover the Ashton way and I really had no problems with it. Valium made me a bit more sleepy at first but I really didn't mind that, I would way rather sleep away my problems. Then I began my taper and that's been no cakewalk but I am glad to be doing it on Valium and not K.

Thank you. Did you switch to Valium because you had a hard time tapering k, it or just because you heard of Ashton method & thought that would be easier?

Did you only take your dose at night?

How long have you been on benzos sorry can’t see sig right now?

Why are you glad to be tapering from v instead of k?

How do you crossover the Ashton way?

Much thanks if you’re even up to more questions xx, SC

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So true trish.

 

k is that go to drug here in the USA. My doc is in a practice with several pdocs and 2 PAs. All prescribe controlled substances, but not opiates.

 

But I’ve seen other patients walk out with Rxs for K. My doc is very understanding, totally is benzo wise, and is fine with liquid taper. Knows about V also. Gets the dependence difference with addiction also. Knows all the generic Ks also. Wealth of info.

 

But you’re right. Uncommon. I actually learned a ton here, but also learned a ton on the old benzo detox site before they went “out of business.”

 

Intend, I live in Connecticut where Yale and all the smart Docs are suppose to be! It amazes me that the Dr's here are usually all willing to write out a script for Xanax but none seem to have any idea how to taper. I have found and read that they almost always go by manufacturer suggested reduction of .5 every two weeks, I was told this by a CVS pharmacist. In all fairness I haven't looked that much into different docs but so far two Dr's one I call Dr A** Hole aka former Dr and my new nice Dr whose putting no pressure on me to taper on a schedule, a psychiatrist and my social worker,( she's an absolute angel) really have no answers for me on how to taper. It's scary to think that former Dr probably would have killed me if I would have tried to stick with his taper schedule of .5 reduction every two weeks which now I know he was following that suggestion bc of pharmacist. So my former Dr was clueless and reckless with my health. You are so fortunate to have knowledgeable Dr's where you live.

Good luck to you my friend sounds like you have the right doc 

Trish

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I don’t know what’s wrong g with. Y iPad. I wrote a response that was maybe too long?? But Ive seen longer ones on this forum! And it would not post! So I wrote the whole thing over again! And it won’t post! What a waste of an hour! Sure makes. ME MAD!

Ok I got that out of me!

 

Gotta go, will try again later.

Oh..I hope this post goes through!

Hesth :tickedoff: :tickedoff:

[[He...]]

Ohoh oh

So how come that one went through??

Darn it!

Geath :tickedoff: :tickedoff:

Later everyone...

Hope. Everyone who is not doing so well, will have a better day today. Especially New Jersey. And everyone else

Heath :smitten:

[[Sc...]]

So true trish.

 

k is that go to drug here in the USA. My doc is in a practice with several pdocs and 2 PAs. All prescribe controlled substances, but not opiates.

 

But I’ve seen other patients walk out with Rxs for K. My doc is very understanding, totally is benzo wise, and is fine with liquid taper. Knows about V also. Gets the dependence difference with addiction also. Knows all the generic Ks also. Wealth of info.

 

But you’re right. Uncommon. I actually learned a ton here, but also learned a ton on the old benzo detox site before they went “out of business.”

 

Intend, I live in Connecticut where Yale and all the smart Docs are suppose to be! It amazes me that the Dr's here are usually all willing to write out a script for Xanax but none seem to have any idea how to taper. I have found and read that they almost always go by manufacturer suggested reduction of .5 every two weeks, I was told this by a CVS pharmacist. In all fairness I haven't looked that much into different docs but so far two Dr's one I call Dr A** Hole aka former Dr and my new nice Dr whose putting no pressure on me to taper on a schedule, a psychiatrist and my social worker,( she's an absolute angel) really have no answers for me on how to taper. It's scary to think that former Dr probably would have killed me if I would have tried to stick with his taper schedule of .5 reduction every two weeks which now I know he was following that suggestion bc of pharmacist. So my former Dr was clueless and reckless with my health. You are so fortunate to have knowledgeable Dr's where you live.

Good luck to you my friend sounds like you have the right doc 

Trish

Wow that’s like a dream benzo doc, now I see why you keep saying you’re going to wait for your appointment to decide what to do. Hm...maybe I’ll go google phsychopharmacologist in my area. I’m spinning wheels

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I may just be lucky living in N. Cal but I have found that if you present your dr w/ Ashton and a plan to taper (so that they know your intention is to get off) most will help you go at your pace. The real problem is that tapering is nobody's domain. Prescribing, yes, getting off, no. So, I don't think the doctors are evil per say, they just find themselves in a bad position, beginning to understand how bad these drugs are, but not equipped to handle the taper properly. YOU have to be your own advocate--show them, explain to them, make them understand--rationally--so that they may open their eyes and be more helpful to all those who come next.

[[Tr...]]

I may just be lucky living in N. Cal but I have found that if you present your dr w/ Ashton and a plan to taper (so that they know your intention is to get off) most will help you go at your pace. The real problem is that tapering is nobody's domain. Prescribing, yes, getting off, no. So, I don't think the doctors are evil per say, they just find themselves in a bad position, beginning to understand how bad these drugs are, but not equipped to handle the taper properly. YOU have to be your own advocate--show them, explain to them, make them understand--rationally--so that they may open their eyes and be more helpful to all those who come next.

 

Hi bluepill,

I agree that not all dr.s are evil but my former Dr really didn't do me any favors keeping me on xanax for 25 yrs. I think if a Dr is going to prescribe a drug he or she should know how to take the patient  off of it. I don't know how recent it was that they found benzos to be a difficult drug to get off or the dangers of the drug, but as soon as that became fact he should have worked with me then to safely come off. The ethical thing to do would have been to educate me on the dangers and then come up with a plan to safely and slowly get me off of it. Instead I was told by him out of nowhere that I had to come off and gave me an 8wk taper schedule and told me that I'd feel better in a year! Clearly he was an A**Hole. I do agree with you though that not all dr.s are like him, some are well meaning and will listen to their patients but that's not always easy, especially around here where I live. Maybe my new Dr would consider Ashton, I'm reluctant to ask though given past experience.

Trish

 

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Trishy:

I know. I was on kpin for 15 years. Had no idea. Not one doctor told me this was a problem. The issue, I think, is that doctors did not really know--and now that they are beginning to understand, they don't know what to do--many are in denial, but more are in a panic that they will find themselves in a lawsuit or be blamed for situations that arise as patients taper. Doctors (most) have God complexes and they do not like to admit they are wrong. I see it as a honey/bees situation. When I speak to them now, I am careful to explain the situation and not assign blame--in this way they are usually more amenable to helping me--on my terms---and I find they are more receptive to "the truth." My new doctor actually said, "I had no idea," and now reads benzo buddies and only prescribes benzos to tapering patients. BUT I totally get your frustration--I have feel the same. Very angry to find myself here--why would any doctor give a 24 year old kpin for sleep??? And way back then I had neurological reaction to Ativan but did not connect the dots--nor did my dr----just switched me to kpin and that was it. Depressing and maddening as can be but I feel like it's my job now to get off and try to educate, rather than blame, because they won't accept the blame--but maybe, maybe, they'll open their eyes?

[[Ma...]]

I may just be lucky living in N. Cal but I have found that if you present your dr w/ Ashton and a plan to taper (so that they know your intention is to get off) most will help you go at your pace. The real problem is that tapering is nobody's domain. Prescribing, yes, getting off, no. So, I don't think the doctors are evil per say, they just find themselves in a bad position, beginning to understand how bad these drugs are, but not equipped to handle the taper properly. YOU have to be your own advocate--show them, explain to them, make them understand--rationally--so that they may open their eyes and be more helpful to all those who come next.

 

You just described my Dr to a T, but she has been good enough to let us guide the taper and has cheered me on, so I am extremely grateful for that.  But it would be nice to have someone with real knowledge. 

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Agreed, Mary. We are, sadly, the ones with the knowledge now. For now the best we can do is hope to find someone sympathetic and ego-less enough to say, "Okay, I'm listening--I'll help however I can."

[[St...]]

Hi all regarding benzo addiction valium has been known as addictive since the 1960's.The new benzos eg k, Xanax etc were then brought out as anxiolytics and given out freely.The sad thing being that because of the dosage and strength people have no idea the dose they are taking is so potent.

    Here in the UK the medical profession is starting to waken up to the dangers of these drugs however they still are rushing people off the drugs and misdiagnosing withdrawal symptoms as mental illness so we have a long way to go.

    They do not prescribe K or Xanax.Don't get me wrong there is still little to no support here however l think there will be as time passes.

  As for psychiatrists their only role is to prescribe medication so they will never accept these drugs are difficult to get off and how long it takes to heal.If they did they would not be required so that is never going to happen.

    Trust me l am not blaming any doctor for what l am going through but again I will say l will not allow them to take over my taper.As far as l can see a large number of them actually do more harm than good.That is only my opinion.

    Love Stut X

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Stut: Totally agreed. My only point is that, in my experience, (and I get that I've been lucky) even if they do think I am crazy and mentally ill, if I walk in with a taper plan and Ashton, they will help me go at my pace. That's the best I can hope for. And I think/hope that the next patient who comes in with these issues they will be less likely to dismiss and more likely to help taper slowly--even if they think they are indulging them. Do I think they will stop prescribing? No. It's their bread and butter. But I do hope they will --at least--be more empathic and understanding that w/d is a real thing that requires time and patience.

[[Tr...]]

Trishy:

I know. I was on kpin for 15 years. Had no idea. Not one doctor told me this was a problem. The issue, I think, is that doctors did not really know--and now that they are beginning to understand, they don't know what to do--many are in denial, but more are in a panic that they will find themselves in a lawsuit or be blamed for situations that arise as patients taper. Doctors (most) have God complexes and they do not like to admit they are wrong. I see it as a honey/bees situation. When I speak to them now, I am careful to explain the situation and not assign blame--in this way they are usually more amenable to helping me--on my terms---and I find they are more receptive to "the truth." My new doctor actually said, "I had no idea," and now reads benzo buddies and only prescribes benzos to tapering patients. BUT I totally get your frustration--I have feel the same. Very angry to find myself here--why would any doctor give a 24 year old kpin for sleep??? And way back then I had neurological reaction to Ativan but did not connect the dots--nor did my dr----just switched me to kpin and that was it. Depressing and maddening as can be but I feel like it's my job now to get off and try to educate, rather than blame, because they won't accept the blame--but maybe, maybe, they'll open their eyes?

 

Bluepill, Well said!! My former Dr had one of the biggest ego 's I've ever encountered, he would have been unapproachable as far as the Ashton manual. I also like your honey/bee approach.. Smart!! I guess I'm still trying to process all that's happened and move on to trying to heal.  At some point I know I need to let go of my anger at former Dr.. It's not helping me any and I know that. I just keep thinking how different my life would be right now if he never put me on Xanax.. That's my "what if syndrome" talking, something I also need to get rid of. I can play "what if" all day and it won't change a thing. It is what it is..

Have a great night,

Trish