The Long Hold Support Group

[[be...]]

Hi SS, good to see you here, hope today will be a better day for you.

 

Slowly I am doing well, just a bit groggy, but OK.  

[[Ca...]]

I took benzos on and off for about 4 years without ever noticing anything or even considering WD apart from some brain zaps where I thought 'shit that can't be good I must be withdrawing.' But they would always subside after a few days. It wasn't until 2015 when I took them every day for about 3 weeks that my body became dependent and so this hell began. Maybe I had also kindled from all the start/stop from the years before too...who knows.

So it was easy to go back and forth for 3-4 years? Were you off for any significant time during that time?  Again I'm not questioning things just trying to add to my knowledge.....

Thanks Shamo

Hi Suffering

Had to think about this and take my time.

I had actually forgotten that for the first year [out of 1 and a half years before deciding to taper off]  I also took half doses and often none at all of valium, and that was on the advice of my doctor.

 

For instance I never took them when on holiday and my holidays are 2 @ 4 weeks each between Jan and March plus one 8 week holiday in India, Nov and December - yeh i hate our winters 

I never noticed any withdrawals at all but I'm like Valley, it takes a good 4 weeks usually for any symptoms to show and of course I'm extremely relaxed on holiday, don't worry about sleeping and also drink wine, which is why it seemed best not to take any Valium or Nitrazepam.

 

But even  when at home I would miss doses out or halve them without any ill effects.

I don't have any answers I'm afraid of why this should be the case.

 

It was only when I started to take the full 10mg daily of V plus the 5 mg Nitraz every night that I became dependent [in my opinion] - took 6 months -ish.

I then started to feel ill and depressed so decided to come off them all.

 

Immediately I switched the Nitrazepam for equivalent valium I felt dreadful and held for between 6 or 7 months.

Then the rest is in my sig.

Found BB and started to realise my cuts had been too big or my crossover too quick.

Also that valium just doesn't suit me, it depresses me too much and doesn't help my sleep.

Had w/ds since starting to come off them, not helped by my doctor pushing me to withdraw very quickly.

 

I had probably started to have interdose w/ds which was possibly why I felt ill before deciding to come off them.[?] - not sure.

 

This may not be of any help to you but every little helps if you are trying to add to your knowledge 

Hi Shamo!

that's a pretty detailed observation that you put together and I appreciate the time and effort that took! Many thanks   Amazing the advice that doctors still think is OK regarding benzos.  I think they are still ill informed - my doc didn't prescribe out of maliciousness but a lack of knowledge about the true danger of this stuff.

 

I too think that I was offered and took benzos -- ativan at one point off and on for a number of years.  I think I'm just putting it together that the extreme anxiety I felt at times -- usually about 4:00pm was interdose w/d.... I would head for a glass of wine and they would subside -- same receptors aren't they?

 

So not sure if I kindled myself at that time -- if kindling even exists - but for sure I have taken Xanax everyday for years so no surprise that I'm having such a tough time getting off.  I just couldn't imagine it would be this tough!  So it seems that the daily dose is what really does it.  The intermittent is crazy for sure -- but the daily is when the body doesn't have a chance to recover at all.....

 

Yesterday I realized that I had forgotten to take my pill portion, .25 of the Xanax, the night before -- what with measuring liquid, cutting mirtazapine etc.... Hellish until I realized what had gone on.    I took the missed some and immediately felt better although very sedated... I only took it at night ever.  Then I get that trapped feeling again... about the taper.  I'm pretty sure that the added Valium I have on board for the interdose w/d is what is causing my mood to be so low -- besides that fact that this is a grind for all of us!

 

But on we go with the support of BB, perseverance, and generous buddies telling their stories.  Many thanks  :smitten:

Sorry, just wanted to jump in and say that there is a good case for a steady, stable, consistent blood level/concentration, being far less damaging than intermittant use, or even daily interdose WD situations... A receptor expression and absorbtion thing...  Just incase someone considers dose staggering to the finish line...

 

My Drs, (good ones) and my mum, who was a regonal nurse manager, all assure me that most people come off med with a simple taper, and a few with seemingly no problems... But I think those of us with significant problems, are more than just the odd few...

SS, -There are plenty of threads on this in chewing the fat... look for the ones shut down by a moderator.. lol

-Its a good question, and there Needs to be some propper studies...

Polydrugging and misdiagnosis of WD SX may affect the figures too...?

 

But also interesting that I took V very irregularly too, often with a weeks gap...

Then one day... Bang...

 

[[st...]]

Well my goal now is to stabilize and be grateful for all the great support here...at this low dose I'm not not concerned about additional damage to my brain...just hope my body catches up to this dose in the next day.  That would be a huge boost of hope that I am healing.

Hi stevozz. We're glad our here and hope you will get the support and encouragement you need.  --V

 

Thank you for the words of encouragement!

[[fr...]]

  I'm also one who was given 4 mg. of Ativan a day and told it was a low dose.  This was on top of muscle relaxer and opiate for my spinal issues.  The ativan was given me in the hospital for a life threatening CDiff infection.  My Primary insisted I stay on it said I needed it blah blah.  Now here I am.  He is very kind though and just ignorant I guess but now they are wising up and trying to push people off too fast, thats the problem.  Mine so far isn't rushing me but I can see a time coming when he might and that terrifies me since I am so so sick now.  Anyway, I wish they would do some research and find a way to help us, really help us get off this stuff easier.  This is inhumane torture for some of us. 

[[Ca...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

[[st...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

[[ly...]]

 

I, too, believe that problems developed when pdoc told me to take the xanax every 8 hrs.  And after a year of this...  I was also "hitting" the wine - at first to quell late afternoon nausea, then later it became an all day thing.   Well...what can you do now?  Move on!  Ever forward.

[[Ca...]]

  I'm also one who was given 4 mg. of Ativan a day and told it was a low dose.  This was on top of muscle relaxer and opiate for my spinal issues.  The ativan was given me in the hospital for a life threatening CDiff infection.  My Primary insisted I stay on it said I needed it blah blah.  Now here I am.  He is very kind though and just ignorant I guess but now they are wising up and trying to push people off too fast, thats the problem.  Mine so far isn't rushing me but I can see a time coming when he might and that terrifies me since I am so so sick now.  Anyway, I wish they would do some research and find a way to help us, really help us get off this stuff easier.  This is inhumane torture for some of us.

hey Free..!!

 

If they had any brains, they would be snapping up people in your (and others) situation, and developing effective treatment, care, and tapering options... The least your Dr can do is stay onside while you do the hard work...

 

Wishing you strength...

 

[[be...]]

  I'm also one who was given 4 mg. of Ativan a day and told it was a low dose.  This was on top of muscle relaxer and opiate for my spinal issues.  The ativan was given me in the hospital for a life threatening CDiff infection.  My Primary insisted I stay on it said I needed it blah blah.  Now here I am.  He is very kind though and just ignorant I guess but now they are wising up and trying to push people off too fast, thats the problem.  Mine so far isn't rushing me but I can see a time coming when he might and that terrifies me since I am so so sick now.  Anyway, I wish they would do some research and find a way to help us, really help us get off this stuff easier.  This is inhumane torture for some of us.

hey Free..!!

 

If they had any brains, they would be snapping up people in your (and others) situation, and developing effective treatment, care, and tapering options... The least your Dr can do is stay onside while you do the hard work...

 

Wishing you strength...

Free I agree with Cant.

[[Su...]]

thanks everyone for the input!

thanks Cant for pointing me to chewing the fat   

I want to do research and work in this field when I'm done... when I'm done, when I'm done!

Steady on everyone,

BG hope the grogginess gets better.

Welcome to all and  :smitten:

SS

[[Ca...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

That is the hardest question, as we all different, and on top is the short use...

In time a history builds that is helpfull, to a point...

There is often a lag time between cuts and emerging SX, this ranges from a few weeks to a few months... (most never see those final ones as they are cutting again)..

 

The common rule of thumb is to go back to last stable dose and hold for stability... and looking at your sig, 1 to 0.125 would sound about as good as I could guess...

Enough to counter some lag, a reflection of how you recouvered from previous cuts, and not too much, -in hope that you can indeed drop off fairly quick...

 

Remember there is the possibility that you may be able to hold at current dose for a while to get stable... But, the time is a guess...

 

A few also have problems with starting liquid titration..

possibly that is a consideration??

 

I hope that, and anyone elses thoughts, can help guide you to a decision..

 

Once stable for a week or so, (I normally think at least 2-3 weeks) -then small cuts or a slow micro to start (dependent on how easy you get stable), that, you can then adjust by symptoms...

 

What did I forget?? (I cant see your sig in this view on my fone)

 

Hope thats a start for you...

 

 

 

[[fr...]]

  Yes I agree Can't but all they have now is other drugs or detox which is really no solution for prescribed drug or benzos.  They want to lump us in with heroin detox etc.  It won't work for us who are on multiple meds that must be tapered.  They still don't get it, I'm praying they do some day soon. 

[[Ca...]]

thanks everyone for the input!

thanks Cant for pointing me to chewing the fat   

I want to do research and work in this field when I'm done... when I'm done, when I'm done!

Steady on everyone,

BG hope the grogginess gets better.

Welcome to all and  :smitten:

SS

lol, you might be one of the few that read the odd link that I post then... (yeah, I would be skeptical too... lol)

 

Are you following the one in chewing fat -"can anyone explain this in laymans terms?"  dm123 , but he didnt start it...  its about interdose WD and kindeling at a receptor level... -an extension on persiverences work... but buckle in... The science is a bit beyond me...

And it will be over, and you have no limits..!!

 

 

 

[[Ca...]]

  Yes I agree Can't but all they have now is other drugs or detox which is really no solution for prescribed drug or benzos.  They want to lump us in with heroin detox etc.  It won't work for us who are on multiple meds that must be tapered.  They still don't get it, I'm praying they do some day soon.

Have you (Everyone) filled out the survey from London Uni (global) -linked at very top right of home page... This is about support servicis etc, not banning or restricting meds...

A good survey and simple IMO...

[[st...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

That is the hardest question, as we all different, and on top is the short use...

In time a history builds that is helpfull, to a point...

There is often a lag time between cuts and emerging SX, this ranges from a few weeks to a few months... (most never see those final ones as they are cutting again)..

 

The common rule of thumb is to go back to last stable dose and hold for stability... and looking at your sig, 1 to 0.125 would sound about as good as I could guess...

Enough to counter some lag, a reflection of how you recouvered from previous cuts, and not too much, -in hope that you can indeed drop off fairly quick...

 

Remember there is the possibility that you may be able to hold at current dose for a while to get stable... But, the time is a guess...

 

A few also have problems with starting liquid titration..

possibly that is a consideration??

 

I hope that, and anyone elses thoughts, can help guide you to a decision..

 

Once stable for a week or so, (I normally think at least 2-3 weeks) -then small cuts or a slow micro to start (dependent on how easy you get stable), that, you can then adjust by symptoms...

 

What did I forget?? (I cant see your sig in this view on my fone)

 

Hope thats a start for you...

 

Yes I am currently doing liquid titration for accuracy

 

[[Su...]]

 

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

 

Hi Steveozz,

I had a horrible time when I started LMT, and only continued that avenue for a few days -- it felt like my body just wasn't getting enough medicine.  I now only taper and use a small portion of my dose in liquid and that works.  But I did need to updose and hold for a few days while my body recovered.  So I think that Cant's suggestion might be worth considering...?

Hope things ease up soon.

SS

[[Ca...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

That is the hardest question, as we all different, and on top is the short use...

In time a history builds that is helpfull, to a point...

There is often a lag time between cuts and emerging SX, this ranges from a few weeks to a few months... (most never see those final ones as they are cutting again)..

 

The common rule of thumb is to go back to last stable dose and hold for stability... and looking at your sig, 1 to 0.125 would sound about as good as I could guess...

Enough to counter some lag, a reflection of how you recouvered from previous cuts, and not too much, -in hope that you can indeed drop off fairly quick...

 

Remember there is the possibility that you may be able to hold at current dose for a while to get stable... But, the time is a guess...

 

A few also have problems with starting liquid titration..

possibly that is a consideration??

 

I hope that, and anyone elses thoughts, can help guide you to a decision..

 

Once stable for a week or so, (I normally think at least 2-3 weeks) -then small cuts or a slow micro to start (dependent on how easy you get stable), that, you can then adjust by symptoms...

 

What did I forget?? (I cant see your sig in this view on my fone)

 

Hope thats a start for you...

 

Yes I am currently doing liquid titration for accuracy

Liquid titration is fantastic... without a doubt... Sadly a few of us have issues in the first week or two... But I would hate to put you off for no reason...

People often treat starting like a cut in itself and hold a couple of weeks...

-and as SS suggests, a partial C/O if need be...

 

You will get there, just think "stability" for now...

[[st...]]

 

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

 

Hi Steveozz,

I had a horrible time when I started LMT, and only continued that avenue for a few days -- it felt like my body just wasn't getting enough medicine.  I now only taper and use a small portion of my dose in liquid and that works.  But I did need to updose and hold for a few days while my body recovered.  So I think that Cant's suggestion might be worth considering...?

Hope things ease up soon.

SS

 

What does LMT mean?  thanks!

[[st...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

That is the hardest question, as we all different, and on top is the short use...

In time a history builds that is helpfull, to a point...

There is often a lag time between cuts and emerging SX, this ranges from a few weeks to a few months... (most never see those final ones as they are cutting again)..

 

The common rule of thumb is to go back to last stable dose and hold for stability... and looking at your sig, 1 to 0.125 would sound about as good as I could guess...

Enough to counter some lag, a reflection of how you recouvered from previous cuts, and not too much, -in hope that you can indeed drop off fairly quick...

 

Remember there is the possibility that you may be able to hold at current dose for a while to get stable... But, the time is a guess...

 

A few also have problems with starting liquid titration..

possibly that is a consideration??

 

I hope that, and anyone elses thoughts, can help guide you to a decision..

 

Once stable for a week or so, (I normally think at least 2-3 weeks) -then small cuts or a slow micro to start (dependent on how easy you get stable), that, you can then adjust by symptoms...

 

What did I forget?? (I cant see your sig in this view on my fone)

 

Hope thats a start for you...

 

Yes I am currently doing liquid titration for accuracy

Liquid titration is fantastic... without a doubt... Sadly a few of us have issues in the first week or two... But I would hate to put you off for no reason...

People often treat starting like a cut in itself and hold a couple of weeks...

-and as SS suggests, a partial C/O if need be...

 

You will get there, just think "stability" for now...

 

What does c/o mean? thanks

[[sl...]]

Sorry, just wanted to jump in and say that there is a good case for a steady, stable, consistent blood level/concentration, being far less damaging than intermittant use, or even daily interdose WD situations... A receptor expression and absorbtion thing...  Just incase someone considers dose staggering to the finish line...

 

My Drs, (good ones) and my mum, who was a regonal nurse manager, all assure me that most people come off med with a simple taper, and a few with seemingly no problems... But I think those of us with significant problems, are more than just the odd few...

SS, -There are plenty of threads on this in chewing the fat... look for the ones shut down by a moderator.. lol

-Its a good question, and there Needs to be some propper studies...

Polydrugging and misdiagnosis of WD SX may affect the figures too...?

 

But also interesting that I took V very irregularly too, often with a weeks gap...

Then one day... Bang...

 

Absolutely, Cant.

I wasn't implying that it was a good thing, I think it was probably very damaging and I definitely wouldn't consider staggering doses now.

I'm more likely to CT from the remaining 5mgs than to do that.

I was just answering Suffering's question with my own experiences because she wanted to know.

[[Su...]]

 

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

 

Hi Steveozz,

I had a horrible time when I started LMT, and only continued that avenue for a few days -- it felt like my body just wasn't getting enough medicine.  I now only taper and use a small portion of my dose in liquid and that works.  But I did need to updose and hold for a few days while my body recovered.  So I think that Cant's suggestion might be worth considering...?

Hope things ease up soon.

SS

 

What does LMT mean?  thanks!

The daily liquid micro taper, sorry for the acronym!

 

[[sl...]]

 

I, too, believe that problems developed when pdoc told me to take the xanax every 8 hrs.  And after a year of this...  I was also "hitting" the wine - at first to quell late afternoon nausea, then later it became an all day thing.   Well...what can you do now?  Move on!  Ever forward.

 

You have moved forward Lynn 

You're off.

I never did anything about interdose w/ds I just waited it out till my next dose time.

I've only ever taken the meds once a day at the same time - evening - because they were intended to help my sleep.

The only thing was that after telling me to take them "as needed", I was then told to take them every day as I wasn't feeling any better.

I'd probably been better hitting the wine instead of going to the doctor...more enjoyable too.

 

Like you did, I'm just managing my taper myself now.

 

 

 

[[sl...]]

U Typists...!!! -steady on..!!  -trying to catch up..

-Imagine how poor Tntd feels...!!

 

Welcome Stevozz, Good to see you here..!!

I hope the next few days show you where your healing and dose connect, and you get that stability you need...

From stability, all things are possible...

 

***

Memory test...

Hi... Ummm -Everyone...!!

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

That is the hardest question, as we all different, and on top is the short use...

In time a history builds that is helpfull, to a point...

There is often a lag time between cuts and emerging SX, this ranges from a few weeks to a few months... (most never see those final ones as they are cutting again)..

 

The common rule of thumb is to go back to last stable dose and hold for stability... and looking at your sig, 1 to 0.125 would sound about as good as I could guess...

Enough to counter some lag, a reflection of how you recouvered from previous cuts, and not too much, -in hope that you can indeed drop off fairly quick...

 

Remember there is the possibility that you may be able to hold at current dose for a while to get stable... But, the time is a guess...

 

A few also have problems with starting liquid titration..

possibly that is a consideration??

 

I hope that, and anyone elses thoughts, can help guide you to a decision..

 

Once stable for a week or so, (I normally think at least 2-3 weeks) -then small cuts or a slow micro to start (dependent on how easy you get stable), that, you can then adjust by symptoms...

 

What did I forget?? (I cant see your sig in this view on my fone)

 

Hope thats a start for you...

 

Yes I am currently doing liquid titration for accuracy

Liquid titration is fantastic... without a doubt... Sadly a few of us have issues in the first week or two... But I would hate to put you off for no reason...

People often treat starting like a cut in itself and hold a couple of weeks...

-and as SS suggests, a partial C/O if need be...

 

You will get there, just think "stability" for now...

 

What does c/o mean? thanks

I think it means Cross Over , steve.

Either crossing from one med to another, as I crossed my Nitrazepam to the longer half life Valium for easier withdrawal,  or in your case crossing part of your dose to liquid and taking the rest as tablet.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

It's like learning a whole new language isn't it?

[[Ca...]]

 

 

Yes that is what I need to know... "where does my healing and dose connect"... I was functioning @ .125 ...could drive and go to grocery store with no issues...thats about when things went down hill...

 

Hi Steveozz,

I had a horrible time when I started LMT, and only continued that avenue for a few days -- it felt like my body just wasn't getting enough medicine.  I now only taper and use a small portion of my dose in liquid and that works.  But I did need to updose and hold for a few days while my body recovered.  So I think that Cant's suggestion might be worth considering...?

Hope things ease up soon.

SS

 

What does LMT mean?  thanks!

DLMT -Daily liquid micro taper... But not everyone reduces daily, thus, -LMT

Cross Over.. C/O -tablet to liquid, or one medicine to another (similar)

 

-there is an orange sticky above a group/thread/whatever, somewhere, with abbreviations..

-Everyone, -it even has Pdoc in it...!! -psychiatrist...

 

[[Ca...]]

Sorry, just wanted to jump in and say that there is a good case for a steady, stable, consistent blood level/concentration, being far less damaging than intermittant use, or even daily interdose WD situations... A receptor expression and absorbtion thing...  Just incase someone considers dose staggering to the finish line...

 

My Drs, (good ones) and my mum, who was a regonal nurse manager, all assure me that most people come off med with a simple taper, and a few with seemingly no problems... But I think those of us with significant problems, are more than just the odd few...

SS, -There are plenty of threads on this in chewing the fat... look for the ones shut down by a moderator.. lol

-Its a good question, and there Needs to be some propper studies...

Polydrugging and misdiagnosis of WD SX may affect the figures too...?

 

But also interesting that I took V very irregularly too, often with a weeks gap...

Then one day... Bang...

 

Absolutely, Cant.

I wasn't implying that it was a good thing, I think it was probably very damaging and I definitely wouldn't consider staggering doses now.

I'm more likely to CT from the remaining 5mgs than to do that.

It seems incredible that it was less than 3 years ago and that I just naively and stupidly assumed that the doctor actually knew about what she was prescribing.

i know better now but unfortunately it means that I don't trust any doctor about anything now, especially as when I told her that I wanted to taper off them she seemed to take it as a personal criticism and I think that is why she was so aggressive about my taper and wanted it finished in 2 months.

I don't see her now and don't have any prescriptions from her.

I was just answering Suffering's question with my own experiences because she wanted to know.

sorry, -I knew you guys were right, and onto it.. It was something in the early posts that could have been taken either way.. I think a cause and effect thing...

I just remember thinking -I best clarify that for someone reading down the track, or got it as a search result...

 

Oh and ur a pro at abbreviation translation too..!!

 

The pink warning of another post is just off screen on my fone and i often just post anyway...

 

Are you any good at math??