The Long Hold Support Group

[[ly...]]

Thank you Valley

I needed that.

I'm totally converted and will not cut further until I feel very stable.

Have stopped my "must get off this with all speed"

I made too many biggish cuts in the last year but didn't realise it because I just swallowed the other propaganda - keep on cutting, you won't star to heal until you are free of the drug.

I'm feeling much better after this 2 and a half month hold but I'm being cautious now.

It just isn't worth it.

Thanks again.

 

I don't see many examples of the rushing/pushing thru bad sxs ending well.  Now that I am "post-withdrawal" I find it pretty disheartening to visit the Post Withdrawal Support board.  It's one thing to go fast if you are having a fairly easy taper but for those having trouble I just don't see any good coming of it.

 

I'm hoping this long hold slow method works for me too.

My Sis in law, who is a Pranic Healer [which doesn't require any medical knowledge]  and very anti any drugs said to me that I won't even start withdrawing until I get rid totally and just throw the valium away.

It is so confusing because people are withdrawing badly whilst just cutting even slowly aren't they.

I'm getting worried again.

Are your symptoms very mild now?

You had bad symptoms while withdrawing didn't you?

love 

 

Yes, people are having problems even when going slowly.  I have some thoughts about this but nothing concrete.  I know that I had really bad wd the first year and holding 8 months took care of it.  Later after again going too fast and having alot of trouble, a 4 month hold saw everything become very mild and/or disappear.  I was then able to taper at a steady clip with only mild symptoms and to "jump" with no escalation or acute.  I don't think there is anything magical or special about my experience.  I healed on the way down and have only a little bit left to go.  Having things be mild and being fully functional during my taper gave me a great deal of confidence that I was tapering in the right manner - for me.

 

I think that looking at signatures helped me when I had thoughts of (or people talked about) going faster.  I find a definite correlation to speed of taper and taper experience/outcome.  At least among the group that find themselves on BB.  I don't see many who bemoan going too slowly.

 

So, we all have to decide for ourselves how best to approach our taper.  It's good to look at how other's have fared but we are all individual and it's sometimes just plain old trial and error.  I simply could not get past the idea that cutting while very symptomatic did not make sense.  Adding further insult to an already damaged brain - I just feared the damage would get worse and become entrenched.  For me the holds brought healing - so I shut out the voices (inside and outside my head) and just listened to my symptoms.

[[He...]]

Good morning

For the first time in a month I slept like the dead but woke up extremely anxious.....and nauseous.

I guess taking a rescue dose on Sunday and trying to figure out where to "dose correct " and how much has played havoc with my sensitive system.  Basically I feel lousy.

I'm on a different drug than most of you so I'm not sure the same  rules apply....I get hit right away if I cut or whatever. 

I know Valley told me he didn't start to see a change for 6 weeks.

 

Mornings are tough and my confidence needs a boost.  This is no way to live.

HS

[[an...]]

Hi HS,

 

I am also on Ativan.  You should know whether or not the dose correction is helping within a few days.  Ativan has a very short half-life.  I have up dosed 3 times over the last two years.  In the past after taking a rescue dose, I would feel the improvement right away. Last time I up dosed it took a few days before I noticed a difference. 

 

How many times a day are you dosing?  I split my daily dose into three doses taken 7 to 8 hours apart.  Because of ativan's short half-life, inter dose withdrawals can be a huge issue.  I take my first dose as soon as I get up in the morning.  I take another one around 3:00 and the final dose at 10:00 or 11:00 PM. 

 

What size cuts do you make?  At the moment, I am cutting about 5% a month. I incorporate holds when needed.

 

You will find your way through this. There is no reason to suffer through a taper.  From my experience, it is crucial to stabilize before starting a taper, and then determine a taper rate that agrees with you. Incorporating holds is important as well.  I understand that many people want to get off these drugs as soon as possible, but for many going too fast results in misery. 

 

I am now down to 0.180 mg/day. It will take me another month or so to get down to 0.168 mg/day which is where I was back in June 2016 when I up dosed for the first time.  It will take me another year or so before I finish my taper.  I am fine with that as long as I can live my life. It can take another 3 years, but as long as I am symptom free, that is okay.

 

If you are only taking one or two doses a day, you could use the amount that you decide to increase as your third dose.  Some people do 4 doses a day, but I think that is too much since you  would need to dose every 6 hours to keep drug concentration constant.

 

Good luck.  Again, you will find your way.

 

Anne 

[[Va...]]

Thank you all for your encouragement...it means a lot...no one in my orbit understands what the heck I'm going through.

 

I'm going to ask it here.....what do you do or take to help with sleep.  I'm having a terrible time .  I wake up at 2 am and sometimes am up the rest of the night...not helping with coping

Thanks for listening

HS

I use unisom the one with the doxylamine succinate. It does have a drag for a bit the next morning but works pretty well for sleep.  Hope you can get the sleep under control.  I know how hard it is to be sleep deprived.  --V

 

Hi Valley  I was toying with that one but wasn't sure if it was ok to take along with diazepam.

My sleep has always been bad but it seems to be improving as I get lower with the diazepam.

Still have some really bad nights though so would quite like something like this to take occasionally.

How long does the drag/groggy feeling persist for you in the mornings?

I could try it out over a weekend.

It hasn't seemed to have much impact on the taper as far as any interaction with Valium if there is any. The groggy feeling only lasts a couple of hours. I don't find I have to use it much as I haven't had too many sleep issues and only use it if I have insomnia for 2 days in a row. I'm finding my sleep is better and much deeper as I get lower also. In fact, it seems like I can't get enough the past few days lol.  --V

[[He...]]

Anne

I'm on a pretty large dose of Ativan. A tad over 3 mg....coming down from 4.5 mg...I get terrible interdose withdrawals and I dose 5 times a day...this drug has a hold on me .  I dose at 6 am, noon, 4 pm , 9 pm and a small dose in the middle of the night ( nocturnal panic).  I didn't want to updose too much because it's so much work to get back down.  I'm guessing that my updose back to 3.125 isn't enough.......I'm a rookie and I don't know what I'm doing...I guess I fear the kindling aspect....plus I quit my taper earlier this year and it was hard coming back down. 

Messing around with the doses doesn't seem like a great idea right now.

 

Should I be freaking out?    I held for a month at 3 mg and seemed to just get worse...then in desperation I cut .125 on Friday and all hell broke loose.  Dumb I guess but that's  what happened. I'm paying the price today.  How do I fix it?

[[an...]]

Anne

I'm on a pretty large dose of Ativan. A tad over 3 mg....coming down from 4.5 mg...I get terrible interdose withdrawals and I dose 5 times a day...this drug has a hold on me .  I dose at 6 am, noon, 4 pm , 9 pm and a small dose in the middle of the night ( nocturnal panic).  I didn't want to updose too much because it's so much work to get back down.  I'm guessing that my updose back to 3.125 isn't enough.......I'm a rookie and I don't know what I'm doing...I guess I fear the kindling aspect....plus I quit my taper earlier this year and it was hard coming back down. 

Messing around with the doses doesn't seem like a great idea right now.

 

Should I be freaking out?    I held for a month at 3 mg and seemed to just get worse...then in desperation I cut .125 on Friday and all hell broke loose.  Dumb I guess but that's  what happened. I'm paying the price today.  How do I fix it?

 

HS,

 

A one month hold is not long.  For many, it takes up to about 6 months before they see improvements.  Any change (including an up dose) will cause problems.  A hold is needed in order for the system to stabilize.  How long of a hold?  That I do not know.  I think it depends on how much healing or reorganization needs to take place with the receptors.   

 

You might consider going back to the dosage before you made the cut on Friday and then hold for quite a while.  I think that tapering through will just make things worse.  But, that is only from my own experience.  We are all different.

 

Anne

[[He...]]

Thank you Anne. 

 

So all these little changes has disrupted things.

 

How did you learn about holds ....it doesn't seem like part of the norm.....I just stumbled across the long hold group.

 

From a very frustrated HS ❤️

[[Su...]]

  I dose at 6 am, noon, 4 pm , 9 pm and a small dose in the middle of the night ( nocturnal panic).  I didn't want to updose too much because it's so much work to get back down.  I'm guessing that my updose back to 3.125 isn't enough.......I'm a rookie and I don't know what I'm doing...I guess I fear the kindling aspect....plus I quit my taper earlier this year and it was hard coming back down. 

Hi HS,

SS

 

[[He...]]

Anne you mentioned that you were able to live your life.....I am not and I don't know how to get there...I was very anxious and not really living when I started this mess of a taper.  But I could function.  I could shop....go to family functions...do holidays....

Now I'm stuck in the house barely functioning.....taking a shower some days ( as in today) is a big deal.

 

I was in tolerance when I started my taper. Along with a lot of fear about the taper...

 

Hoping someone has some comforting words

[[He...]]

Suffering

Thank you for responding.  I take a bit of Valium at night to help with sleep...

Because I'm on so much Ativan I doubt my doctor would go for more......

What kind of doctor helps you with your taper?

HS

[[He...]]

Thank you Anne. 

 

So all these little changes has disrupted things.

 

How did you learn about holds ....it doesn't seem like part of the norm.....I just stumbled across the long hold group.

 

From a very frustrated HS ❤️

 

Healing Seeker,

 

On page 1108 of this forum there is a post from Valley Um that has a picture of achicken at the beginning of it.

We here all call it the propaganda because it includes many quotes from many different buddies who have done long holds...and talks about how it has helped them.

I hope you will read it.

I can not ever explain how really horrible I felt, really lost and sick at the beginning of my taper. I too just stumbled into Benzo Buddies after I had begun a taper on my own with no knowledge of what the heck I was doing.

Then I also stumbled into the long hold group. That was my saving grace. I held for four months, got stable, and now can taper a much slower but safer and better way. Oh yea, I still get mild side effects, but that is my signeal that something is wrong, either I'm going too fast or I'm cutting too big, or both, so I slow down, and hold fir a while and listen to what my body is saying.

 

The only way for you to be sure is to give it a nice long hold try. See for yourself. Only remember that onemonth us NOT a LONG hold. If you are in misery you may have to hold for a few months to get out if your bad situation.

 

But...IMO long holds work. I would have been on Valium for llife if I didn't find this forum and this way of tapering. Since finding this forum, I have found 3 different doctors who all say the same thing.... you must go slow when you are tapering a benzo.

 

There is no sense in rushing and bring in misery. Your brain needs time to adjust to every cut, and to heal.  When you go too fast, your brain is being asked to heal from your new cut when it hasnt even healed and adjusted to your last cut. Then cut after cut after cut, you will be getting more and mire side effects piling up, and oh will you be in misery. And it will take quite a while for your brain to heal, adjust, and catch up.  Oh sure you'll get to the end of your taper bunch sooner, and you can jump, but.... you will be a mess of side effects and misery! And who knows how long it will take for you to completely recover.

You may wind up in the same amount of time to jump off your benzo if you went slowly and were functional and had only mild wdsx,.

 

It makes no sense to rush and be miserable all the way down with horrible wdsx, and then also have to go through more protracted side effects at the end because you didn't give your brain a chance to heal little by little on your way down.

 

I hope I have made some sense here.

 

But please PLEASE READ THE PROPAGANDA WITH THE PICTURE OF THE CHICKEN AT THE TOP ON PAGE 1108. IT SAYS IT BETTER THAN ME.

 

Heath :therethere:

[[He...]]

Thank you Heath

 

I've read and reread the propaganda and it makes sense especially since I'm not having success with the methods I've been told to do by my doctor.....last week under his breath he said you are never going to get off....then tells me I'm not on that much.....each time I make a tiny. .125 cut....I get less functional and the sxs are horrendous.  He's been prescribing this for 30 years and thinks it's going to be a cakewalk to get off ( no he actually said it would be the hardest thing I do).

 

So going up is not going to help me......I'm having such a tough time daily....just tell me it gets better.....if I keep holding

 

Thanks. HS

[[He...]]

Oh,Oh,

 

OKAY, OKAY... my brain is talking to me again, and it's not happy.  :nono:   Side effects nOT so mild anymore, and ARE ever present and THATS MY SIGNAL to hold on for a while. I'm going real slow, but if it's still too fast for my brain, I guess it's time to stop and hold this DMT for a while. 

I hate to hold! ITS SO HARD! But I guess I just have to...don't want to mess with wdsx.

 

( yes it's the same old wdsx, neck and low back muscle tension.  THANK GOODNESS ITS NOT THE DIZZIES! . That I can not stand! That's what really makes me sick! That's the only thing that makes it easier for me to hold...knowing that if I don't, the dizzies may be next! And then I won't be able to function at all!

 

Ok, I have convinced myself.  Holding NOW !

 

HEATH :oXo:

[[He...]]

It's the dizziness that is my nemesis

 

Heath

That last post was meant fir me. Correct?

 

[[...]]

Thank you Heath

 

I've read and reread the propaganda and it makes sense especially since I'm not having success with the methods I've been told to do by my doctor.....last week under his breath he said you are never going to get off....then tells me I'm not on that much.....each time I make a tiny. .125 cut....I get less functional and the sxs are horrendous.  He's been prescribing this for 30 years and thinks it's going to be a cakewalk to get off ( no he actually said it would be the hardest thing I do).

 

So going up is not going to help me......I'm having such a tough time daily....just tell me it gets better.....if I keep holding

 

Thanks. HS

 

HS , I know how hard this is , and I think everyone here does too, and has great empathy for what you are going through .

It seems to me that .125 mgs is NOT a small cut , not when you are already destabilized as you seem to be ( as am I) I have become sensitive to the tiniest reductions in Valium . I am not sure what the equivelant is , but I microtapered .0625 mgs Valium in June , I think a lot less than .125 equivelant of Ativan , and it's been six weeks and my symptoms have been getting worse . I am housebound too and mostly in bed , very weak and feel just awful. I say this just to let you know , as others have been saying , and also in my personal experience now , that once sensitized , the tiniest change can throw everything into chaos. To me the only option is to try and allow the body to  adjust and settle down .

 

It's really hard , I know , especially when you don't get a break . I haven't had much of a break in a year now, but I've made tiny cuts and now I have to hold longer without any changes at all, none.

 

Every day I wake up to another difficult morning of cortisol surges and feeling , oh no , another day of tolerating this , getting through . Yes , I think mornings are the worst , sleep when we have it is such a nice respite , and then to wake up to Groundhog Day , well it can just be plain old depressing and wearing  on us. But we get up , and we get through .

 

I haven't worked in over two years , most of that time I've been housebound , not all from benzos , but this last year plus has been . There was a time before I knew about benzos and WD that I was so sick I couldn't even lift my head off the pillow, I had been messing around with doses and amounts and timeing and it was a real mess. I didn't bathe in three months and had to be totally cared for. I didn't want to live .

in writing this I see how far I've come , I can take care of myself now , I'm on a stable dose of Valium , and gabapentin . My taper seems impossible right now , but I believe it will change somehow.

 

It's a lot to accept , especially when your mind wants all the things you had before .

 

You are doing your best , that's all you can do .... Come here often for support ...and you will make it to healing . You and I and others are still in the phase of trying to find our way through where we can have something of a life without such terrible suffering . Many here on this thread have found their way, and that's encouraging .

 

I believe you can stabilize , me too, we'll find a way . We are so fortunate to have this group and a different approach that feels so much better than the scary " rush and get off" approach.

 

Hold on !

Love, MiYu 

[[...]]

Oh,Oh,

 

OKAY, OKAY... my brain is talking to me again, and it's not happy.  :nono:   Side effects nOT so mild anymore, and ARE ever present and THATS MY SIGNAL to hold on for a while. I'm going real slow, but if it's still too fast for my brain, I guess it's time to stop and hold this DMT for a while. 

I hate to hold! ITS SO HARD! But I guess I just have to...don't want to mess with wdsx.

 

( yes it's the same old wdsx, neck and low back muscle tension.  THANK GOODNESS ITS NOT THE DIZZIES! . That I can not stand! That's what really makes me sick! That's the only thing that makes it easier for me to hold...knowing that if I don't, the dizzies may be next! And then I won't be able to function at all!

 

Ok, I have convinced myself.  Holding NOW !

 

HEATH :oXo:

 

Sorry Heath 

Just to remind you .... I've seen you say you feel pretty much 100% many times after holding .....

So in case you need a nudge , this is it . Nudge nudge  :smitten:

[[He...]]

Healing Seeker.

 

When I look at your sig, I don't really see any holds. Looks like you are cutting about .125 every 2-3 weeks.

IMO that may be too big of a cut and too fast at this time. But if you want to stay at the dose you are at, just don't cut anymore right now.

I don't see any hold in your signature. . Perhaps now is the time to hold.  A little hold of 3-4 weeks between cuts, as it looks like in your signature, is NOT reAlly a hold at all.YOU ARE NOT GIVING YOUR BRAIN A CHABCE TO ADJUST AND HEAL TO THE LAST CUT BEFORE GOING TO ANOTHER CUT.  Can that be why you are feeling miserable? Perhaps your wdsx are piling up one on top of another one?IMO  trying a hold for a few MONTHS and listening to your body, may be just the thing to make these wdsx subside. But you will have to listen to your body and hold as long as necessary. It may take some time for your brain to heal and catch up. IMO it makes no sense to cut while you are already having wdsx. IMO, HOLD until you are stable. And keep your brain happy and healing by NOT  testing, and going up and down in your dose. Keep your dose steady while you hold in place.

 

This is definitely so very difficukt. We all have times when things seem bleak. But they always turn around, windows will come when you least expect it. And yours may very well be right around the corner.

Try to distract yourself with other things when the wdsx hit you.

 

I hope this helps.

I wish you the very best. Especially the patience and strength to hold when necessary, because I truly believe it will help you enormously. But we are all different. You will find what's best for yourself. You will get through this. We are all here to support each other.

 

Heath

[[...]]

SS! About the Valium half life ..... Yes , I also dose three times a day , but it's sort of turns into 6 because I only take half of each dose or less at a time , and space it out as it tends to hit me hard and wear off fast, I metabolize fast.

It's the parent drug as they call it that wears off fast ,a nd then the metabolites from that that stay in the system so long and prevent the interdose WDs , to some degree anyway . I'm not really sure how that works when one is a fast metabolizer, I've yet to find information on it . I'm hoping it doesn't mean that the metabolites build up faster and don't leave the way they should and become toxic , one of my pet worries .....

 

I do know I feel more stable on Valium as far as the really intense interdose WDs , like anxiety,which I don't get really , except  for self induced worry which I do a lot!

You have an interesting approach with doing Valium 4 X and Xanax 1 X! I think that's a first ......

 

People were talking about Remeron ..... I have some , I rarely take it , but when I do I take 1/8th of a 15 mg pill, and it knocks me out . It's actually too much , I need 1/16 th! I'm groggy for the whole next day with 1/8 th! It does give a really good sleep tho when needed.

 

And Love to everyone ,

MiYu

[[He...]]

It's the dizziness that is my nemesis

 

Heath

That last post was meant fir me. Correct?

 

The dizzy post was just me venting. I do that often because it helps me distract.

 

But All my posts are for everyone.

All the posts here, even though they may be directed to a specific buddy( because one such buddy may be having a very difficult time) are for anyone to read. Everyone reads every post they want to read and everyone chimes in whenever they want. We all support everyobe else..

 

Yes, I was answering your post, but I believe all posts can help all the buddies here because we all see ourselves in the same place as others at one time or another.

 

Heath

[[He...]]

You guys are great...I need to fix my brain...my family needs me.

Thank you Heath and MiYu

 

If I wait long enough will I feel better.  No way of knowing .......

 

Thank you for responding

HS

[[...]]

Cant.... Sounds like you need a big hug ...... Hold on there , sending you cyber hugs

 

Love, MiYu  :therethere: :hug:

[[Su...]]

Suffering

Thank you for responding.  I take a bit of Valium at night to help with sleep...

Because I'm on so much Ativan I doubt my doctor would go for more......

What kind of doctor helps you with your taper?

HS

Hi Hs,

Yes the Valium was given to me for sleep as well, but I find that using it throughout the day makes the day easier.......I wasn't suggesting an increase in Valium.... it's so flattening.... but a change in how you dose.  Or more like it just letting you know how I dose as information for you to ponder.....

without the Valium during the day, my days were really rough...

 

My doc is just a GP, I think you call them pdoc in the US if that's where you are....

I think she has a few patients on benzos and is concerned about the tapering and willing to be supportive.

 

Let's see how a hold works for all of us! 

 

[[He...]]

MIYU,  THANKS FOR THE NUDGE! I always need a nudge!

 

I am always fighting the benzo devil and it is NOT EASY! As we all know! 

 

Hope your days get better soon MiYu. I know how difficult it is for you my friend. I'm glad your patience, strength, and determination are holding up! You are an inspiration still!

 

Heath

 

 

[[Su...]]

...then tells me I'm not on that much.....each time I make a tiny. .125 cut....I get less functional and the sxs are horrendous.  He's been prescribing this for 30 years and thinks it's going to be a cakewalk to get off ( no he actually said it would be the hardest thing I do).

Hi HS

Wishing you a good day

SS

[[He...]]

Suffering

Thank you for responding.  I take a bit of Valium at night to help with sleep...

Because I'm on so much Ativan I doubt my doctor would go for more......

What kind of doctor helps you with your taper?

HS

Hi Hs,

Yes the Valium was given to me for sleep as well, but I find that using it throughout the day makes the day easier.......I wasn't suggesting an increase in Valium.... it's so flattening.... but a change in how you dose.  Or more like it just letting you know how I dose as information for you to ponder.....

without the Valium during the day, my days were really rough...

 

My doc is just a GP, I think you call them pdoc in the US if that's where you are....

I think she has a few patients on benzos and is concerned about the tapering and willing to be supportive.

 

Let's see how a hold works for all of us!

 

 

Hi there,

 

I'm in the U.S.

We call our general practitioner a GP

I never heard of a PDOC before coming to thus forum, but I thought a pdoc meant a psychiatrist.I have been thinking and using pdoc for abbreviation for psychiatrist ever since I came to this forum.

 

I hope someone who knows FOR SURE will chime in and give us all the correct info.

 

Heath ??? ???