The Long Hold Support Group

[[sl...]]

Mmm I can see why people become confused. ...I feel more confused by the day.

That might be because of Tommy's input, because when I spoke to the helpline here in the uk the woman said more or less what Tommy said and  just told me to "go for it and keep cutting"

[i don't know who BATAID are but sounds similar]

 

That was before I came here.

That was why I came here.

The more I read the more confused I become.

I'll need to really think about this.

Sorry, feel free to ignore this, I'm just thinking aloud 

 

Edit ...but Tommy says he gets worse the longer he holds and yet you Turtles seem to be able to reduce and then jump and are ok.

God I'm so confused but I can't contemplate being any worse until after September 10th, or thereabouts - after that.....?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[To...]]

Hi.Slowlyimproving. I called Bataid which is in the Uk. They told me to hold for as long as I needed before I started tapering again. I guess nobody knows the answers because we all react different to these drugs. Very messy situation that's for sure.

[[sl...]]

Oh yes I see.

Maybe they are the ones I called - sounds familiar.

 

i was feeling ok at the time so she said just go ahead.

Haven't been that good since, but not like you have been, just anxiety, ear and eye problems and persistent vertigo.

Only little symptoms but annoying and they do get me down 

As it happens I can't cut until September anyway so i'll take stock at that time and see how I feel.

I'm just confused by the tolerance/withdrawal question 

 

Hope you are feeling better soon.

 

[[To...]]

Thanks Slowlyimproving. The other buddies did a great job of describing tolerance and withdrawal in their earlier posts. I hope reading them helps you.

[[bl...]]

Calley, Valley, Green:

Thanks for chiming in. It's hard to follow this thread. When I check in every few days I can't even find my posts---moves fast! Well, good to know I am not alone with this vision nightmare--and all of a sudden I've been getting headaches too--No doubt I'll be getting an MRI soon, that'll be 2 inside 3 years,  :(but probably wise to save the $$ and chalk it up to valium. Sometimes the physical manifestations are really hard for me to ascribe to this taper--they have no rhyme or reason and are just so intense and I can't even talk about it because i sound CRAZY.

[[...]]

You're an inspiration, too, Miyu! You keep on keeping on and inspire us to do the same. 

 

You're a sweetheart as always Gard , love , MiYu 

[[...]]

So one more question on the tolerance issue , then  maybe we can put the baby to bed , again! Until it cries for more explanations 

 

What happens if you start your taper already in tolerance to the drug? Could this make in general fro a harder taper as the brain is not stable to begin with? I.e.the baby didn't have enough candy when you started taking it away.....making for a very upset baby.

 

Unanswerable probably.... Some babies are better behaved than others perhaps?

 

Just for everyone's information , as hard of a time as I'm having , today was not AS bad as yesterday , so , I am in withdrawal .....and holding for eight months did in no way make me tolerant ....

A couple of things I did perhaps made things not go well with this last small cut

1 . Perhaps I should have held longer

2. I cut 1/4 mg in that 8 months , and that makes it not a true hold with no changes at all.

 

Who knows  what other factors might be at play .....all I can say is my brain and body are not happy right now , but I'm better than I was yesterday .

 

Pretty daisies .... Thinking if you and praying you can find a way through this. Hang in there....

 

Valley , I don't think the genetics are what's really causing me issues . I know I'm a fast metabolizer, but so are others and they manage. My body has never liked any benzo .... They are just too powerful for my sensitive nervous system , which I have always had . My body hated steroids too, and citalopram , which I took once , and it made me so sick the first dose I never took it again , after the doctor telling me it would take several weeks to kick in, haha! Thank god I was saved from that.

Also, I had a short window mid June .... How can one explain that?

When I was crossing from K to V , the first day I would cut some of the k and replace with V , I'd always have a window .. For one day, then The WDs would come on fast and furious. 

Can't win at this game until it's done.

 

Love, MiYu 

 

[[Va...]]

So one more question on the tolerance issue , then  maybe we can put the baby to bed , again! Until it cries for more explanations 

 

What happens if you start your taper already in tolerance to the drug? Could this make in general fro a harder taper as the brain is not stable to begin with? I.e.the baby didn't have enough candy when you started taking it away.....making for a very upset baby.

 

Unanswerable probably.... Some babies are better behaved than others perhaps?

 

Just for everyone's information , as hard of a time as I'm having , today was not AS bad as yesterday , so , I am in withdrawal .....and holding for eight months did in no way make me tolerant ....

A couple of things I did perhaps made things not go well with this last small cut

1 . Perhaps I should have held longer

2. I cut 1/4 mg in that 8 months , and that makes it not a true hold with no changes at all.

 

Who knows  what other factors might be at play .....all I can say is my brain and body are not happy right now , but I'm better than I was yesterday .

 

Pretty daisies .... Thinking if you and praying you can find a way through this. Hang in there....

 

Valley , I don't think the genetics are what's really causing me issues . I know I'm a fast metabolizer, but so are others and they manage. My body has never liked any benzo .... They are just too powerful for my sensitive nervous system , which I have always had . My body hated steroids too, and citalopram , which I took once , and it made me so sick the first dose I never took it again , after the doctor telling me it would take several weeks to kick in, haha! Thank god I was saved from that.

Also, I had a short window mid June .... How can one explain that?

When I was crossing from K to V , the first day I would cut some of the k and replace with V , I'd always have a window .. For one day, then The WDs would come on fast and furious. 

Can't win at this game until it's done.

 

Love, MiYu 

Hi MiYu. Sorry for your continued struggle. 

 

In answer to your question, I think most of us were in tolerance when we began to taper.  I know I was for sure.  The tolerance symptoms were somewhat related to and felt like withdrawal sxs except they were a little different. I have improved as I've tapered except at the beginning when I tapered too fast. I know some struggle with valium and it doesn't seem to be a good fit for many but hopefully your body will adjust to it and you will be able to reduce and slide off at the end.  --V

[[Ca...]]

I was in tolerance, extreme tolerancec, on a much simpler medication, opiates..

-The picture is clearer... Tolerance was hell, with many SX and paradoxical reactions... -interdose was pure toxic..

The initial 20% of the taper was the worst thing, tolerance and WD.. -It was that "hump" that stopped me tapering dozens of times in hosp (it showed in my obs and became counter productive -even at a 1-2% cut)...

 

As I tapered things got easier, more like plain WD...

 

I got stuck when I got down to about 20% -maybe too fast?

BUT maybe more the same type of stuff that I had in tolerance?? I did hold for ages, and was under no pressure...

Sadly I CTd in Detox and was left protracted, which has similar SX as the original tolerance...

-I should have done a slow SX guided micro taper... but was given the wrong guidance...

 

Just as gabapentin and other things are used as a taper aid for benzos, I used Valium as a taper aid, more so after detox, while in post accute.. -what a mess...!!

-if only I had tapered opiates at 2% a month over the last 5ish years..!!

 

So I agree with Tommys suggestion that there is more to tolerance than meets the eye, possibly similar to what one might find in protracted...

But the rules dont change, as far as tapering goes... 

 

...and to continue would be preaching to the converted...

 

Great reading others way of wording it all...

Good page numbers to remember...

 

 

 

 

[[He...]]

So here I sit at  2:10 am.  sleep will not come. Nothing on tv. Read everything on the Long hold site.. Tea usually helps but not tonight.

I wonder if I'll sleep at all  tonight.... or should I say ''this morning?

Lets see, hmmm,

Oh ok I'll try some meditation again.

 

I hope you don't see me here in another hour!

 

Heath

[[St...]]

I'm in the same boat this morning. I've been sleeping okay. My mind has been racing lately. I've felt a lot less safe since my mom passed. Much less safe. Somehow her being in the world made it feel safer. Now not only is she gone, but I have to worry about my dad and my own health.

[[ly...]]

 

Update at One Week Off

 

No surprises and no acute.  I'm doing great.  Wd is minimal and I've had no ramping or sign of any sort of acute horror coming my way.  I'm only dealing with mild neck tension and mod/mild tinnitus.  I've had a momentary "this or that" but this whole thing feels less than the mild wd I've had over the last number of months.

 

I hope this means good news and happy endings for all of us who have chosen slow and methodical tapers.

[[sl...]]

So here I sit at  2:10 am.  sleep will not come. Nothing on tv. Read everything on the Long hold site.. Tea usually helps but not tonight.

I wonder if I'll sleep at all  tonight.... or should I say ''this morning?

Lets see, hmmm,

Oh ok I'll try some meditation again.

 

I hope you don't see me here in another hour!

 

Heath

We should arrange to meet on here

I'm usually still awake at that time.

 

Can't blame this on benzos in my case although taking them in 2015 was to try to help my insomnia.

It kind of did at first but that was the Nitrazepam part and it made me too groggy in the morning.

Valium on it's own didn't help at all, which is why I'm trying to abandon it because it just caused a few other unpleasant symptoms which I hadn't had before - insomnia I've had since childhood.

Long nights though aren't they.

 

I use various techniques to help - sometimes they work sometimes not .

Sympathy for all with insomnia - you need to experience it to know what it's really like.

[[be...]]

 

 

Update at One Week Off

 

So surprises and no acute.  I'm doing great.  Wd is minimal and I've had no ramping or sign of any sort of acute horror coming my way.  I'm only dealing with mild neck tension and mod/mild tinnitus.  I've had a momentary "this or that" but this whole thing feels less than the mild wd I've had over the last number of months.

 

I hope this means good news and happy endings for all of us who have chosen slow and methodical tapers.

[glow=red,2,300] Great News Lynn. [/glow]

[[sl...]]

Thanks Slowlyimproving. The other buddies did a great job of describing tolerance and withdrawal in their earlier posts. I hope reading them helps you.

 

LOL thank you but it was reading about it which confused me even more.

I never gave it a thought before reading it on bb.

 

I was  trying to get the posts on here into my brain but I was  still more unsure.  

 

I'm just going to plough ahead after my summer stuff and start titration with good holds.

I'll just be as slow as I can bear and call everything withdrawal - can't get my head around the tolerance thing so am not going to worry about it.

 

My question  about tolerance was exactly the same as MiYu's but I couldn't be bothered to try to ask it 

Valley's answer to MiYu does make sense to me so I'll go with that.

 

[[sl...]]

 

 

Update at One Week Off

 

So surprises and no acute.  I'm doing great.  Wd is minimal and I've had no ramping or sign of any sort of acute horror coming my way.  I'm only dealing with mild neck tension and mod/mild tinnitus.  I've had a momentary "this or that" but this whole thing feels less than the mild wd I've had over the last number of months.

 

I hope this means good news and happy endings for all of us who have chosen slow and methodical tapers.

[glow=red,2,300] Great News Lynn. [/glow]

 

Yes great for you Lynn I'm sure you have done everything right and it's paying off.

May it continue 

[[be...]]

Slowly, I find it best to not dwell on words and such..just make up your mind, like you are now doing and go with it. "Time and Accepting of the Process of Healing" and living each moment the best you can and let the what if's and why not's go, anyway that what has worked for me.

[[ly...]]

 

 

Update at One Week Off

 

So surprises and no acute.  I'm doing great.  Wd is minimal and I've had no ramping or sign of any sort of acute horror coming my way.  I'm only dealing with mild neck tension and mod/mild tinnitus.  I've had a momentary "this or that" but this whole thing feels less than the mild wd I've had over the last number of months.

 

I hope this means good news and happy endings for all of us who have chosen slow and methodical tapers.

[glow=red,2,300] Great News Lynn. [/glow]

 

Yes great for you Lynn I'm sure you have done everything right and it's paying off.

May it continue 

 

Thanks BG and slowly,

 

I've had a theory about this whole taper/wd/post wd process for awhile and I think things are playing out the way I thought they might.  It just didn't make sense to me that if you had a mild taper you would be crushed by acute.  I felt that you could expect things to continue as they had been.  I had a very rough time earlier in my taper but was able to right that (with holds and a slower symptom-based taper).  I don't think this jump would have worked out well had I continued with such a horrible taper.  I think I would have gotten more of the same - and even worse.  Anyway, so far it's looking like things paid off

[[Ca...]]

So here I sit at  2:10 am.  sleep will not come. Nothing on tv. Read everything on the Long hold site.. Tea usually helps but not tonight.

I wonder if I'll sleep at all  tonight.... or should I say ''this morning?

Lets see, hmmm,

Oh ok I'll try some meditation again.

 

I hope you don't see me here in another hour!

 

Heath

Sorry Heath, I didnt know I was spreading it...

-Just keep trying every now n again...

Insomnia is so frustraiting...

 

[[sl...]]

So one more question on the tolerance issue , then  maybe we can put the baby to bed , again! Until it cries for more explanations 

 

What happens if you start your taper already in tolerance to the drug? Could this make in general fro a harder taper as the brain is not stable to begin with? I.e.the baby didn't have enough candy when you started taking it away.....making for a very upset baby.

 

Unanswerable probably.... Some babies are better behaved than others perhaps?

 

Just for everyone's information , as hard of a time as I'm having , today was not AS bad as yesterday , so , I am in withdrawal .....and holding for eight months did in no way make me tolerant ....

A couple of things I did perhaps made things not go well with this last small cut

1 . Perhaps I should have held longer

2. I cut 1/4 mg in that 8 months , and that makes it not a true hold with no changes at all.

 

Who knows  what other factors might be at play .....all I can say is my brain and body are not happy right now , but I'm better than I was yesterday .

 

 

Also, I had a short window mid June .... How can one explain that?

When I was crossing from K to V , the first day I would cut some of the k and replace with V , I'd always have a window .. For one day, then The WDs would come on fast and furious. 

Can't win at this game until it's done.

 

Love, MiYu 

MiYu you asked the question about the troublesome baby which I wanted to ask but I hadn't time yesterday to try to phrase it 

Also your windows followed by big waves of WDs are like mine and I've also made a couple of too big too fast cuts.

Valley's answer was good though 

Some days I worry that it will all take so long I will just lose patience and jump off and take the consequences.

I'm not known for my patience unfortunately ...especially patience with myself.

Hope you have good luck soon and feel steadily better.

 

[[sl...]]

Slowly, I find it best to not dwell on words and such..just make up your mind, like you are now doing and go with it. "Time and Accepting of the Process of Healing" and living each moment the best you can and let the what if's and why not's go, anyway that what has worked for me.

 

Yes I think you are right begood

That's my plan...at the moment 

[[ga...]]

"Time and Accepting of the Process of Healing" and living each moment the best you can and let the what if's and why not's go, anyway that what has worked for me.

 

Wow, the thread's moving fast but my brain is moving slowly. I stole this quote from BG to look like I had something profound to add.  

 

Gard

[[Va...]]

So here I sit at  2:10 am.  sleep will not come. Nothing on tv. Read everything on the Long hold site.. Tea usually helps but not tonight.

I wonder if I'll sleep at all  tonight.... or should I say ''this morning?

Lets see, hmmm,

Oh ok I'll try some meditation again.

 

I hope you don't see me here in another hour!

 

Heath

Hope the insomnia doesn't last too long heath.  I know how frustrating it can be.  --V

[[Va...]]

 

Update at One Week Off

 

No surprises and no acute.  I'm doing great.  Wd is minimal and I've had no ramping or sign of any sort of acute horror coming my way.  I'm only dealing with mild neck tension and mod/mild tinnitus.  I've had a momentary "this or that" but this whole thing feels less than the mild wd I've had over the last number of months.

 

I hope this means good news and happy endings for all of us who have chosen slow and methodical tapers.

This is great news lynn! You need to copyright the "Commonsense Taper Method" lol. 

[[Va...]]

I'm in the same boat this morning. I've been sleeping okay. My mind has been racing lately. I've felt a lot less safe since my mom passed. Much less safe. Somehow her being in the world made it feel safer. Now not only is she gone, but I have to worry about my dad and my own health.

Sorry for your trials Stephen.  They certainly make this more difficult. I hope things settle for you.  --V