The Long Hold Support Group

[[be...]]

Hi MiYu. I tapered way to fast and am really sick. I have been holding for sic weeks with no relief but I think I need to hold much longer. Today I called bataid in the UK and their advice to me was to do a long hold. They also said tolerance withdrawal doesn't exist. Only on the forums. I know I wasn't able to help you but I think these people on here know what they're talking about with longholds. I hope you see some relief soon.

 

I knew that "tolerance withdrawal" was a bunch of baloney.  And it's so darn harmful with so many trotting it out all the time - scaring people into racing.  I wish there was a "sticky" of something B.A.T. had written on the topic - if there is anything in writing.  I like to hear some of the tolerance withdrawal folks tell us they know more than B.A.T.

I never believed that baloney either, I think we all need to post when we see someone telling another especially new buddies because it is very confusing to them...and just advise to go by Bataid advice, I agree wish we had a sticky for this, much needed for those stuck on that horrible word....

 

:tickedoff:     exactly

 

You know, this is what caused my racing at the beginning of last year which led to a 4 month hold.  I came on BB after an 8 month hold and was told that I better tapering at a good rate or I was going to get tolerance withdrawal.  Scared me into cutting myself into a very bad place.

You know first hand and every day it is being used to dig holes for those that are already so confused...I guess I am going to have to post when I see it and hope someone listens... honestly withdrawal is what we are going through, not this word that scares the hell out of everyone and it is used so loosely.... I guess I will get my basement ready...

[[ly...]]

Hi MiYu. I tapered way to fast and am really sick. I have been holding for sic weeks with no relief but I think I need to hold much longer. Today I called bataid in the UK and their advice to me was to do a long hold. They also said tolerance withdrawal doesn't exist. Only on the forums. I know I wasn't able to help you but I think these people on here know what they're talking about with longholds. I hope you see some relief soon.

 

I knew that "tolerance withdrawal" was a bunch of baloney.  And it's so darn harmful with so many trotting it out all the time - scaring people into racing.  I wish there was a "sticky" of something B.A.T. had written on the topic - if there is anything in writing.  I like to hear some of the tolerance withdrawal folks tell us they know more than B.A.T.

I never believed that baloney either, I think we all need to post when we see someone telling another especially new buddies because it is very confusing to them...and just advise to go by Bataid advice, I agree wish we had a sticky for this, much needed for those stuck on that horrible word....

 

:tickedoff:     exactly

 

You know, this is what caused my racing at the beginning of last year which led to a 4 month hold.  I came on BB after an 8 month hold and was told that I better tapering at a good rate or I was going to get tolerance withdrawal.  Scared me into cutting myself into a very bad place.

You know first hand and every day it is being used to dig holes for those that are already so confused...I guess I am going to have to post when I see it and hope someone listens... honestly withdrawal is what we are going through, not this word that scares the hell out of everyone and it is used so loosely.... I guess I will get my basement ready...

 

Should I bring the cats? :laugh:

 

(BG and I were told by a buddie that we were pathetic lonely old shut-ins that lived with a bunch of cats )

[[...]]

Thrilled for you MiYu !!!!!  To finally see some light ,  peace and love....freedom from the damned shackles !!!!

Such an inspiration ...amazing strength and stamina.

 

I think you mean Lynn Mellow 

[[ga...]]

You're an inspiration, too, Miyu! You keep on keeping on and inspire us to do the same. 

[[be...]]

Hi MiYu. I tapered way to fast and am really sick. I have been holding for sic weeks with no relief but I think I need to hold much longer. Today I called bataid in the UK and their advice to me was to do a long hold. They also said tolerance withdrawal doesn't exist. Only on the forums. I know I wasn't able to help you but I think these people on here know what they're talking about with longholds. I hope you see some relief soon.

 

I knew that "tolerance withdrawal" was a bunch of baloney.  And it's so darn harmful with so many trotting it out all the time - scaring people into racing.  I wish there was a "sticky" of something B.A.T. had written on the topic - if there is anything in writing.  I like to hear some of the tolerance withdrawal folks tell us they know more than B.A.T.

I never believed that baloney either, I think we all need to post when we see someone telling another especially new buddies because it is very confusing to them...and just advise to go by Bataid advice, I agree wish we had a sticky for this, much needed for those stuck on that horrible word....

 

:tickedoff:     exactly

 

You know, this is what caused my racing at the beginning of last year which led to a 4 month hold.  I came on BB after an 8 month hold and was told that I better tapering at a good rate or I was going to get tolerance withdrawal.  Scared me into cutting myself into a very bad place.

You know first hand and every day it is being used to dig holes for those that are already so confused...I guess I am going to have to post when I see it and hope someone listens... honestly withdrawal is what we are going through, not this word that scares the hell out of everyone and it is used so loosely.... I guess I will get my basement ready...

 

Should I bring the cats? :laugh:

 

(BG and I were told by a buddie that we were pathetic lonely old shut-ins that lived with a bunch of cats )

  in our basement...

[[ly...]]

 

 

:laugh:

[[Se...]]

What is tolerance withdrawal suppose to mean.

[[ga...]]

What is tolerance withdrawal suppose to mean.

 

I think it means you feel withdrawal symptoms even though you are not tapering or before you even start because you have become tolerant of your dose. I think tolerant of your dose means your brain isn't happy with that dose any more and wants more.

 

It also means a big argument.

 

 

Colin's Tolerance Withdrawal Posts

[[an...]]

 

 

[MOVE][glow=red,2,300]"CONGRATULATIONS GARD ON DROPPING ONE CAPSULE WAY TO GO"   [/glow][/MOVE]

 

Thanks, BG! I can't believe I made it, but I did. First milestone for me since my long hold. And now for a short hold to let my brain catchup with my ambitions! 

 

Gard

 

Congratulations Gard!!  I am so happy for you!!

 

Anne  :smitten:

[[He...]]

Lynn. tommy boy ..........  

 

Ha ha, you are funny! Yes I'm a teacher but.... you are right with both spellings. .......

 

Bologna spelled with a capital  "B" is the name of a city in Italy and i think it is pronounced like baloney.

 

The spelling  "baloney" is associated with the term that means it's nonsense.

 

But actually ..I don't care how you spell it...it's ok with me!

 

You both get an A+ on your progress report!

 

Heath

 

[[sl...]]

Hi MiYu. I tapered way to fast and am really sick. I have been holding for sic weeks with no relief but I think I need to hold much longer. Today I called bataid in the UK and their advice to me was to do a long hold. They also said tolerance withdrawal doesn't exist. Only on the forums. I know I wasn't able to help you but I think these people on here know what they're talking about with longholds. I hope you see some relief soon.

 

I knew that "tolerance withdrawal" was a bunch of baloney.  And it's so darn harmful with so many trotting it out all the time - scaring people into racing.  I wish there was a "sticky" of something B.A.T. had written on the topic - if there is anything in writing.  I like to hear some of the tolerance withdrawal folks tell us they know more than B.A.T.

I never believed that baloney either, I think we all need to post when we see someone telling another especially new buddies because it is very confusing to them...and just advise to go by Bataid advice, I agree wish we had a sticky for this, much needed for those stuck on that horrible word....

 

:tickedoff:     exactly

 

You know, this is what caused my racing at the beginning of last year which led to a 4 month hold.  I came on BB after an 8 month hold and was told that I better tapering at a good rate or I was going to get tolerance withdrawal.  Scared me into cutting myself into a very bad place.

 

Yeah this is what keeps worrying me, Lynn.

This hold of mine is going to be another 2 months because of travel/social stuff and even yesterday I was worrying that this was going to cause "tolerance withdrawal"  which I'm very unclear about.

Didn't help reading Colin's Posts either 

This will make a total of 3 and a half months.

That doesn't seem too bad to me so I'm going to stick with it.

I do keep worrying about tolerance but the thought of bad w/ds during my niece's wedding/party and other things I'm going to do is just too horrendous to contemplate.

I'll trust this group 

Reason I'm worrying is that I felt good for around 5 or 6 days and then back comes the vertigo with headaches and anxiety.

Is this just a "wave" or am I in "tolerance"?

I have no clue so going to keep holding regardless 

 

Sorry about your nasty situation, baddove and I hope the support you will get from this group really helps.

Your situation is way too complicated for me - I'm really uninformed I'm afraid.

Hope things improve for you too MiYu. 

I am pretty confused and a bit scared at the moment, worrying about how long this is going to take and how bad it is going to be.

[[ga...]]

 

 

[MOVE][glow=red,2,300]"CONGRATULATIONS GARD ON DROPPING ONE CAPSULE WAY TO GO"   [/glow][/MOVE]

 

Thanks, BG! I can't believe I made it, but I did. First milestone for me since my long hold. And now for a short hold to let my brain catchup with my ambitions! 

 

Gard

 

Congratulations Gard!!  I am so happy for you!!

 

Anne  :smitten:

 

Thanks, Anne. I'm happy, too. You know with the L I had to pitch every day. I'm glad not to be wasting that capsule any more!

 

Hope things are still going well for you with your summer school "kids." (They're kids until they're 25, right? )

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Lynn. tommy boy ..........  

 

Ha ha, you are funny! Yes I'm a teacher but.... you are right with both spellings. .......

 

Bologna spelled with a capital  "B" is the name of a city in Italy and i think it is pronounced like baloney.

 

The spelling  "baloney" is associated with the term that means it's nonsense.

 

But actually ..I don't care how you spell it...it's ok with me!

 

You both get an A+ on your progress report!

 

Heath

 

Around here bologna was something we ate. So I grew up eating a city between 2 pieces of bread. No wonder I never liked those sandwiches. 

 

Oh dear, now I've got that Oscar Meyer jingle going through my head and can't get it out! "My bologna as a first name..."

[[ly...]]

Hi MiYu. I tapered way to fast and am really sick. I have been holding for sic weeks with no relief but I think I need to hold much longer. Today I called bataid in the UK and their advice to me was to do a long hold. They also said tolerance withdrawal doesn't exist. Only on the forums. I know I wasn't able to help you but I think these people on here know what they're talking about with longholds. I hope you see some relief soon.

 

I knew that "tolerance withdrawal" was a bunch of baloney.  And it's so darn harmful with so many trotting it out all the time - scaring people into racing.  I wish there was a "sticky" of something B.A.T. had written on the topic - if there is anything in writing.  I like to hear some of the tolerance withdrawal folks tell us they know more than B.A.T.

I never believed that baloney either, I think we all need to post when we see someone telling another especially new buddies because it is very confusing to them...and just advise to go by Bataid advice, I agree wish we had a sticky for this, much needed for those stuck on that horrible word....

 

:tickedoff:     exactly

 

You know, this is what caused my racing at the beginning of last year which led to a 4 month hold.  I came on BB after an 8 month hold and was told that I better tapering at a good rate or I was going to get tolerance withdrawal.  Scared me into cutting myself into a very bad place.

 

Yeah this is what keeps worrying me, Lynn.

This hold of mine is going to be another 2 months because of travel/social stuff and even yesterday I was worrying that this was going to cause "tolerance withdrawal"  which I'm very unclear about.

Didn't help reading Colin's Posts either 

This will make a total of 3 and a half months.

That doesn't seem too bad to me so I'm going to stick with it.

I do keep worrying about tolerance but the thought of bad w/ds during my niece's wedding/party and other things I'm going to do is just too horrendous to contemplate.

I'll trust this group 

Reason I'm worrying is that I felt good for around 5 or 6 days and then back comes the vertigo with headaches and anxiety.

Is this just a "wave" or am I in "tolerance"?

I have no clue so going to keep holding regardless 

 

Sorry about your nasty situation, baddove and I hope the support you will get from this group really helps.

Your situation is way too complicated for me - I'm really uninformed I'm afraid.

Hope things improve for you too MiYu. 

I am pretty confused and a bit scared at the moment, worrying about how long this is going to take and how bad it is going to be.

 

I'll take a stab at this "Tolerance Withdrawal" (wrong) notion.

 

Some buddies insist that holding will result in one experiencing what they call "tolerance withdrawal" and this is supposed to be a situation where you develop bad and lasting withdrawal symptoms from staying at the same dose too long.  These buddies believe that holding too long is harmful and brings on more withdrawal.  The truth, in my mind and belief (from reading as much as I can and personal experience) is that what people sometimes experience is simply the waxing, waning, coming and going of the normal withdrawal process. 

 

Most who get into a bad place (most likely from tapering too fast) will experience new or increasing wd for a number of weeks while their brains and CNS attempt to adjust and heal.  This is the nature of benzo tapering and withdrawal.  So what people are experiencing is not an adverse reaction to staying at one dose too long (tolerance withdrawal) but just normal, regular, plain old wd.  A simple sign that more time, more holding is needed before a taper resumes.  The tolerance withdrawal proponents believe this ramping is a sign that taper must resume - that harm is being done by holding, as witnessed by these ramping symptoms.  I think the opposite is true - that a longer hold is in order.

 

True tolerance withdrawal, as explained by colin, is extremely rare.  Bataid says that it doesn't exist.  I'd guess that if buddies simply held a bit longer most would see symptoms lessen.  I think the worst thing one can do is to cut while experiencing bad symptoms.  The brain is already showing extreme stress and piling more on with a cut is the worst thing you can do.  This is just my opinion (and my personal experience) but it's backed up by anecdotal experience of many buddies...and now Bataid.

 

It makes so sense to me that cutting in the face of bad withdrawal will help anything.  I wouldn't throw a damaged brain into further chaos.  So that's my take on the whole thing.  There is nothing whatsoever to support damage ocurring during a hold.  There may be a small percentage of buddies who come within Colin's description but throwing this concept out left and right is harming buddies who get frightened into doing the worst thing they could do.  I was one of these buddies.

 

caveat - nothing is 100%.  I'm not saying that holds will help everyone.  If I held for a number of months and saw no improvement or continued to get worse - I would start looking for a different solution.

[[ga...]]

Personally, I would like to take the word "withdrawal" out of the phrase. I only hear doctors talk about "tolerance," not "tolerance withdrawal." Tolerance involves symptoms that look like withdrawal symptoms, but you are not actually withdrawing from the medication.

 

When you add the word "withdrawal" to the phrase, people confuse it with "withdrawing" from their mediation, and it really muddies the waters. For the average person who wants to include the suffering aspect, I think "tolerance symptoms" would be a less-confusing phrase. You're having symptoms for sure, but you are not withdrawing. Your brain just wants more of the drug even though you're not tapering.

 

Once you start tapering, of course your brain wants more of the drug. That's just plain old withdrawal. I don't know how you could determine if you were in tolerance once you started to taper. Seems more likely you're just in withdrawal. It may not always be the case, but I think it's typically the case. I would go with assuming the more typical withdrawal pattern is what's happening, rather than the less typical tolerance, unless I had strong evidence it wasn't so.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Gard

[[sl...]]

Thank you Lynn 

I will keep referring to this as necessary to stop my panic in its tracks

 

It sounds sensible to me especially with my symptoms coming and going as they are.

They are much better during the last 2 weeks than they were before but I will feel happier stabilising.

 

To kind of misquote the Carole King song ...I might as well hold until September

I'll keep singing it to myself

Thanks greatly.

 

Good luck and love :hug: to all especially those who are having a hard time.

Stick with this group, I would be in a mess now without it.

[[sl...]]

Gard we were typing at the same time and we "crossed"

Thank you as well 

[[Ca...]]

I swore I was going to stay out of it..!!!

There is nothing I would change...

 

Top marks Guys...

 

Ps. My experience with Tolerance was with another med...

 

Be Well...

[[Va...]]

My definition on tolerance has always been you only taper as your body can tolerate it. Reducing more than your body can handle will just be more severe withdrawal and require a longer time to recover.  In the end, you will have spent as much time as if you had just gone slow and listened to your body IMO.  No reason to taper yourself into purgatory. Good luck all who are struggling! --V

[[ly...]]

 

"Tolerance" simply means that the drug no longer works for what it was prescribed for.  Ex. you are given 1mg xanax for anxiety.  Over time this becomes less and less effective.  You have reached tolerance.  You require a higher dose to get the same effect.  This is how/why people who start out at .25mgs can end up, years later, at 2, 3, 4mgs.

 

Totally different concept than tolerance withdrawal.

[[Se...]]

My definition on tolerance has always been you only taper as your body can tolerate it. Reducing more than your body can handle will just be more severe withdrawal and require a longer time to recover.  In the end, you will have spent as much time as if you had just gone slow and listened to your body IMO.  No reason to taper yourself into purgatory. Good luck all who are struggling! --V

 

 

That's the conclusion I have come to also.

[[Va...]]

My definition on tolerance has always been you only taper as your body can tolerate it. Reducing more than your body can handle will just be more severe withdrawal and require a longer time to recover.  In the end, you will have spent as much time as if you had just gone slow and listened to your body IMO.  No reason to taper yourself into purgatory. Good luck all who are struggling! --V

 

 

That's the conclusion I have come to also.

I will try to add more confusion by calling this definition... taper tolerance lol.  --V

[[Ca...]]

My definition on tolerance has always been you only taper as your body can tolerate it. Reducing more than your body can handle will just be more severe withdrawal and require a longer time to recover.  In the end, you will have spent as much time as if you had just gone slow and listened to your body IMO.  No reason to taper yourself into purgatory. Good luck all who are struggling! --V

 

 

That's the conclusion I have come to also.

I will try to add more confusion by calling this definition... taper tolerance lol.  --V

Traditional Turtle Tapering... Turning miles into moments...

[[To...]]

Thanks everyone for their input on terance and withdrawal. I do think that there's more to tolerance than just the drug losing it's effect. Ashton and Bataid both said that the drug sometimes has like a negative or opposite effect. I know that my symptoms when I became tolerant were way worse than before I ever touched a benzo. They start to do the opposite of what they were originally prescribed for. I hate benzos.

[[He...]]

Here's one more stab at it.

 

I understand it like this....

 

You really can't use the word "withdrawal" and "tolerance" in the same sentence. It's ALMOST like an oxymoron.

 

WITHDRAWAL symptoms happen when you have been taking a drug for a certain period of time and your brain is going along fine, but then ,uh oh, you stop giving your brain what it is accustomed too. So your brain says, " hey, wait a minute, why did you take that away? I need it! I wAnt it!... and this is WITHDRAWAING the drug. So YOU GET WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS.and of course they get worse and worse if you keep taking away more of the drug and you don't let your brain get used to living without it.  It's like a baby who cries when it can't have a lot of candy.it will cry and cry ( wdsx)

After a while, if the Baby gets  its candy, but a little less, it will stop crying and forget about the larger amount of candy. ( Holding and letting your brain heal, and diminishing withdrawal symptoms.)

 

TOLERANCE symptoms happen when you have been on a drug for a certain amount of time, going along fine, didn't take any of the drug away, didn't reduce at all, but uh oh, your brain has become so accustom to its normal dose that it is not happy with that amount any more. It wants more. The dose that used to be fine, and do the job for you, is no longer working. You have reached TOLERANCE. Your brain tells you IT HAS REACHED TOLERANCE and it wants more by sending you awful symptoms. This is TOLERANCE SYMPTOMS. ITS LIKE A SPOILED BABY WHO HAS GOTTEN THE SAME AMOUNT  OF CANDY EVERY DAY FIR A LONG TIME, AND USED TO BE PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU GAVE IT. BUT NOW IT JUST PLAIN WANTS MORE EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDNT TAKE ANY AWAY! But that spoiled baby is going to cry and cry UNTIL IT GETS MORE. (Tolerance symptoms) the only way it will stop crying is if you give it more.

 

WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS happen when you WITHDRAW YOUR DRUG,( take however much away).

 

TOLERANCE SYMPTOMS happens when your brain just wants more of the drug  to accomplish the same result  that a lesser dose had done in the past because it has become TOLERANT to the drug. . You did NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY.  Your selfish little brain just WANTS MORE.

 

They are completely different.

You can't have WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS and TOLERANCE SYMPTOMS at the same time.

You can't have tolerance symptoms during a taper because you are in WITHDRAWAL.

 

To me, it's almost like an oxymoron, even though they are not actually complete opposites.

 

The term "Tolerance withdrawal" makes no sense. Either you are in withdrawal or you are in tolerance. You can't be in both!

 

The brain, ( the baby) is crying for two totally different reasons in tolerance and in withdrawal.

 

In withdrawal...the baby will eventually stop crying when the candy is gone for good and the baby forgets about it ( when you jump)

 

In tolerance,.....the baby will not stop crying until you give it more.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Heath    :o :o.