The Long Hold Support Group

[[an...]]

Miyu- I also dose once at bedtime and always have.

Anne had good questions. I'm curious too if doc meant 5 mg every 1-2 mo.... Bc that's what they usually do ..vs 5%.  My previous pdoc wanted me to go down 5 mg every month or so and was shocked when I had sxs w/ the first cut. But it was tolerable so I stick it out and am glad I did. I knew I wouldn't be able to cut 5 mg again do I kinda took the taper into my own hands.

 

Anne- maybe another thread is better to ask but I'm thinking to start MT and want your advice on how to start. Choosing a rate? When you get sxs do you hold and decrease rate or keep the same rate? I posted on the MT thread too if you prefer answering there. Thanks!

 

Hi Libr,

 

Yes, I have a feeling MiYu's doc meant 5 mg per/cut.  That is 20% for the first cut, 25% for the second, 33% for the third, a whopping 50% for the fourth cut, and so on. 

 

As for taper rates, I have always gone by the recommendation of not tapering more than 5-10% over a two week period.  For my first taper, back in 2007, I was able to taper 10% every two weeks with no problem. I would adjust my doses as I went lower. This taper is much different. I am now tapering about 5% a month.  I was tapering about 10 - 15% monthly, but the symptoms got to be too much.  I held until things got better, up dosed here and there,  and then decreased my taper rate to 5% monthly. I am feeling much better now.

 

From your signature, it looks like your last cut was about 3% over a 16 day period.  If that caused you problems, you might want to think about holding until things settle down. You could then try another cut and try to determine a taper rate from that.  If the taper rate is too low, you can always increase it or vice versa.

 

Is your librium in capsule form?  I am curious to how you are cutting--scale, liquid? 

 

Hope this helps

Good luck,

Anne

[[an...]]

 

Hi Miyu.

 

First, I agree with Anne's concerns.

 

Second, you are not an addict. Do you want an addictions specialist? Addicts are often pushed to get off a med because they are addicts and "need to be pushed." She may have this mindset. I'd be concerned about an addictions specialist treating you like an addict and pushing you unnecessarily.

 

Also, 20mg of L sounds like a closer equivalence to 8mg of V. But an up-dose is better than a down-dose when crossing.

 

Librium was the first benzo. Valium was created as an improvement to Librium. V is stable as a liquid. You can get V as a liquid, which makes tapering simpler. V stronger than L. Librium and Valium are both depressing compared to Xanax or other fast benzos.

 

You're in the USA, right? Librium only comes in capsules here. The smallest is 5mg. You will have to dissolve unless you want to whack off a whole 5mg. (Not a good idea.)

 

I understand crossing from a short benzo to a long benzo. I don't understand why one would cross from a long benzo to a very similar long benzo.

 

Librium and Valium have almost exactly the same active metabolites, so are very similar drugs. They have similar half lives because of the active metabolites.

 

Librium is probably not stable in solution. I read a study that demonstrated it breaks down into its metabolites fairly quickly. They are active, but they are not the same benzo you started with. So I make up my dose every night for the following day. I open the tiny capsule and pour it into a jar. I find this very tricky. I've wasted capsules from spilling them. My daughter (young adult) does not have as much trouble.

 

Librium is preferred over Valium for alcohol detox symptoms in detox facilities. When I asked why, one doctor speculated Librium is probably preferred because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

 

I think many doctors are mistaken about Librium being easy to taper off of. I have a theory as to why. Just a theory. It is used short term to treat w/d symptoms from other addictions. Then the addict tapers off of the L. But the addict was never dependent on the L. They may have only used it for a few weeks at a very low dose. So of course it was easy to taper off of. They also may blame the w/d symptoms on the original drug of addiction. So then this fallacy gets passed around. "Oh they use it with addicts because it's easy to get off of. It's self tapering," and other such nonsense. It's certainly less painful than tapering off of Xanax, but if you are sensitive to tapering a benzo and you are dependent, I don't see how Librium would be better than Valium.

 

Librium is started at 3-4 times/day. When the person is stabilized, it is reduced to twice/day. There are some people who can take it once, just like there are some V people who can take it once. I actually take it 3 times/day, 8 hours apart. I do that because I take another med 8 hours apart and wanted to sync the two. I would not dream of taking it once/day, given how quickly I metabolize many meds. If you need V twice/day, you probably need L twice/day. Again, the active metabolites thing. I intend to taper to zero or near zero still dosing 3 times/day.

 

If your doctor doesn't want you to micro taper, would she consider a compromise, say cutting once/week instead of once/month? Whatever the method, you are going to have to dissolve.

 

When I crossed to L, I asked for and got all of my drug as 5mg capsules. I take part of my dose as a capsule and only have to dissolve part of my dose. I dissolve one 5mg capsule of L in 3mg of 80 proof vodka and add 97ml of water to make 100ml of solution. Then I pull and pitch my reduction and drink the rest.

 

So, why am I on Librium? Well, I didn't know all that stuff when I chose it. Also, I had been given one dose of it once in a hospital and did not have an adverse reaction to it. I've had very serious and life-threatening adverse reactions to so many meds that I was afraid to try a new drug. So I chose one I knew wouldn't kill me immediately. I am also a ultra-fast metabolizer of Valium. But I really don't know if that matters because they both break down to the same active metabolites. These metabolites are what make them both such slow benzos.

 

One thing to be sure your doctor understands is that you dissolve and take only part of the capsule, and the rest of the capsule is wasted. You need the script for the whole capsule. We have anonymous prescription drug surrender at our village hall. I can pitch my liquid into an empty gallon jug and when it is full, turn it in to the village for proper disposal. An addictions specialist may not like this at all. She may think you are trying to secretly store up meds to avoid getting off. Addicts do this. She will be always thinking about how to deal with an addict. You're not an addict.

 

Once in a great while I think how it would be so much simpler to taper V than L and with I could cross over. But I consider the risk and change my mind.

 

And that's my 2 cents! I'm not an expert on anything but me, but I hope it helps.

Gard

 

Hi Gard :smitten:

 

You make some excellent points!!  I read somewhere that librium is a milder form of valium?  Is that true?

 

Hope you are having a great day!!

 

Anne  :smitten:

[[ga...]]

 

 

Hi Gard :smitten:

 

You make some excellent points!!  I read somewhere that librium is a milder form of valium?  Is that true?

 

Hope you are having a great day!!

 

Anne  :smitten:

 

Hi Anne!

 

I'd say that pretty much sums it up with the caveat that Librium is not stable in solution.

 

Gard

[[...]]

Anne- I use a scale to weigh. It's very accurate. It's a 0.0001g scale. It's easy bc it's already a powder so I don't have to worry abt liquefying and stability.

 

I'd like to try MT I think instead of another cut. My previous few cuts worked really well and they were up to 4% over 10-12 days. Idk why this one is so bad.

[[...]]

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914)

 

 

What a great quote! Thank you Begood ,and Nova  for posting it .... I have always lived by this premise , well, since I came to understand it was a good approach to life . I'm so sorry for all the stresses in your life Nova, I so hope they resolve soon :smitten:

 

So l about the new doc and the Librium . Thanks everyone for your very helpful posts ..... I don't know where I'd be without you .

Since my appointment yesterday I've been sick with worry about this change , not a good sign!

I realized she had asked me about a taper rate , 5 or 10% , and I had taken that to mean that she wanted to work with me on the rate of taper , but then she said she didn't want me dividing up pills and microtapering .so I left feeling very confused . I liked the fact she wanted me to stabilize , but I also felt controlled by her wanting to dictate my rate of taper ....I called her this morning to get clear on what her plan was . Turns out my fears were warranted . She wants me to stabilize , then cut 5 mgs every 1-2 months all the way off! She says she's never seen anyone have a problem with that! Ugh......

It's taken me 8 months to start to get a bit stable form cutting two mgs Valium in a year ..... I feel like throwing up at the thought of cutting 5 mgs every couple of months!

She also said I can only dose once a day and that I have to ' turn in' my Valium to her. You are right Gard, , she is treating me like an addict , not an adult educated person who wants a doctor who takes her into account . I've never been an addict in my life . I don't even drink and never have .

 

I feel pretty upset , I had high hopes for this woman , being able to see her on medi- cal and also willing to see me regularly to check on me .

 

But I really don't feel good about her plan , it scares the hell out of me .

Anyone here would you validate my feelings for me , I'm such a wreck these days still I feel very vulnerable to the ideas and influences of doctors . I do know I have to be in charge at least to some degree , along with encouragement . My other doc isn't ideal , he kind of leaves me to it for the most part , and half the time I have no idea what to do , but at least I have some control over my body. It would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help but not pushy.

 

So , I guess I will be telling this new doc that I'm not ready to take on the taper she is proposing .

She also said that Librium has a longer half life than Valium .that is just plain old wrong! Right?

 

Thanks for being here for me everyone , you are all so wonderful . Libr.... I'm sorry it doesn't look like I'll be able to be much help for you with your taper . I do wonder whether maybe I could move forwards a bit with a Librium taper , but if she won't let me go slower as I go down I think it's a no go.

 

Love, MiYu  :smitten:

[[Va...]]

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914)

 

 

What a great quote! Thank you Nova .... I have always lived by this premise , well, since I came to understand it was a good approach to life . I'm so sorry for all the stresses in your life , I so hope they resolve soon :smitten:

 

So l about the new doc and the Librium . Thanks everyone for your very helpful posts ..... I don't know where I'd be without you .

Since my appointment yesterday I've been sick with worry about this change , not a good sign!

I realized she had asked me about a taper rate , 5 or 10% , and I had taken that to mean that she wanted to work with me on the rate of taper , but then she said she didn't want me dividing up pills and microtapering .mso I left feeling very confused . I liked the fact she wanted me to stabilize , but I also felt controlled by her wanting to dictate my rate of taper ....I called her this morning to get clear on what her plan was . Turns out my fears were warranted . She wants me to stabilize , then cut 5 mgs every 1-2 months all the way off! She says she's never seen anyone have a problem with that! Ugh......

It's taken me 8 months to start to get a bit stable form cutting two mgs Valium in a year ..... I feel like throwing up at the thought of cutting 5 mgs every couple of months!

She also said I can only dose once a day and that I have to ' turn in' my Valium to her. You are right , she is treating me like an addict , not an adult educated person who wants a doctor who takes her into acount . I've never been an addict in my life . I don't even drink and never have .

 

I feel pretty upset , I had high hopes for this woman , being able to see her on medi- cal and also willing to see me regularly to check on me .

 

But I really don't feel good about her plan , it scares the hell out of me .

Anyone here would you validate my feelings for me , I'm such a wreck these days still I feel very vulnerable to the ideas and influences of doctors . I do know I have to be in charge at least to some degree , along with encouragement . My other doc isn't ideal , he kind of leaves me to it for the most part , and half the time I have no idea what to do , but at least I have some control over my body. It would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help but not pushy.

 

So , I guess I will be telling this new doc that I'm not ready to take on the taper she is proposing .

She also said that Librium has a longer half life than Valium .that is just plain old wrong! Right?

 

Thanks for being here for me everyone , you are all so wonderful . Libr.... I'm sorry it doesn't look like I'll be able to be much help for you with your taper . I do wonder whether maybe I could move forwards a bit with a Librium taper , but if she won't let me go slower as I go down I think it's a no go.

 

Love, MiYu  :smitten:

Hi MiYu. It sounds like she may not be a very good choice. Can you keep looking?  Sorry about the added stress. I was in a position where my doctor only thought I would need one more scrip to finish and it was anxiety provoking. Luckily he listened to my reasoning and has been fine since.  Hope you have the same luck.  --V

[[ga...]]

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914)

 

 

What a great quote! Thank you Nova .... I have always lived by this premise , well, since I came to understand it was a good approach to life . I'm so sorry for all the stresses in your life , I so hope they resolve soon :smitten:

 

So l about the new doc and the Librium . Thanks everyone for your very helpful posts ..... I don't know where I'd be without you .

Since my appointment yesterday I've been sick with worry about this change , not a good sign!

I realized she had asked me about a taper rate , 5 or 10% , and I had taken that to mean that she wanted to work with me on the rate of taper , but then she said she didn't want me dividing up pills and microtapering .mso I left feeling very confused . I liked the fact she wanted me to stabilize , but I also felt controlled by her wanting to dictate my rate of taper ....I called her this morning to get clear on what her plan was . Turns out my fears were warranted . She wants me to stabilize , then cut 5 mgs every 1-2 months all the way off! She says she's never seen anyone have a problem with that! Ugh......

It's taken me 8 months to start to get a bit stable form cutting two mgs Valium in a year ..... I feel like throwing up at the thought of cutting 5 mgs every couple of months!

She also said I can only dose once a day and that I have to ' turn in' my Valium to her. You are right , she is treating me like an addict , not an adult educated person who wants a doctor who takes her into acount . I've never been an addict in my life . I don't even drink and never have .

 

I feel pretty upset , I had high hopes for this woman , being able to see her on medi- cal and also willing to see me regularly to check on me .

 

But I really don't feel good about her plan , it scares the hell out of me .

Anyone here would you validate my feelings for me , I'm such a wreck these days still I feel very vulnerable to the ideas and influences of doctors . I do know I have to be in charge at least to some degree , along with encouragement . My other doc isn't ideal , he kind of leaves me to it for the most part , and half the time I have no idea what to do , but at least I have some control over my body. It would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help but not pushy.

 

So , I guess I will be telling this new doc that I'm not ready to take on the taper she is proposing .

She also said that Librium has a longer half life than Valium .that is just plain old wrong! Right?

 

Thanks for being here for me everyone , you are all so wonderful . Libr.... I'm sorry it doesn't look like I'll be able to be much help for you with your taper . I do wonder whether maybe I could move forwards a bit with a Librium taper , but if she won't let me go slower as I go down I think it's a no go.

 

Love, MiYu  :smitten:

 

Miyu, I'm sorry this has been such a disappointment. But, you are correct and the doctor is wrong on both counts.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htm Scroll down to half lives. Chlordiazepoxide is Librium. Diazepam is Valium.

 

It is true that some people have no trouble getting off of benzodiazepines. Apparently that's what she's seen. But estimates are 25-30% of people on benzos will have very difficult tapers and need to go no more than 10%/month. Some 5%/month. Some with holds. Each person is different. You doctor seems to have a huge ego and doesn't know what she doesn't know. She needs to grow up and get some perspective. Some poor people will be her guinea pigs while she learns. You don't want to be one of them.

 

That whole "turn in your Valium" thing is so annoying. She is obviously addiction-focused. You are not an addict. How does she know how much Valium you have, anyway? I sure wouldn't tell her! In fact, I'd just run for the hills!

 

Yes, it would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help, but the truth is, there aren't any. The best help a doctor can do is support you as you take control of your taper. You are much better off with a doctor who is happy to prescribe forever because then you have control of your taper. You are an adult and not an addict and have the right to be in charge of your medical care. Just get the scripts from your cooperative doctor. Do a slow taper according to your body's signals without necessarily telling your doctor. There are many, many people on this forum doing that. They have built up small emergency stashes of pills that way. Emergencies happen. A doctor could move or retire and it could take time to find a new one. A stash is not a bad idea.

 

I really see no point in the world in switching to Librium. Switching can cause problems and Librium could make your taper worse, not better. If you absolutely want to try it, use your current prescriber who lets you do things your way. Find Ashton's crossover charts and do it her way. She does not cross from Librium to Valium because they are so similar, so find the slowest benzo you can on her charts and use it as a guideline. Personally, I'd stick with the Valium given how similar the drugs are and what a nuisance Librium is.

 

A word about weighing powder, my bias is I hate scales. Also, my powder clings to things. I can't imagine being able to measure the powder on a scale. Any scale I could afford would be too difficult to use and could not accurately measure such tiny amounts.

 

Love that quote Nova posted. Let some time pass, then go forward with courage. You know more than you think and you can do this.

 

Gard

[[...]]

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914)

 

 

What a great quote! Thank you Nova .... I have always lived by this premise , well, since I came to understand it was a good approach to life . I'm so sorry for all the stresses in your life , I so hope they resolve soon :smitten:

 

So l about the new doc and the Librium . Thanks everyone for your very helpful posts ..... I don't know where I'd be without you .

Since my appointment yesterday I've been sick with worry about this change , not a good sign!

I realized she had asked me about a taper rate , 5 or 10% , and I had taken that to mean that she wanted to work with me on the rate of taper , but then she said she didn't want me dividing up pills and microtapering .mso I left feeling very confused . I liked the fact she wanted me to stabilize , but I also felt controlled by her wanting to dictate my rate of taper ....I called her this morning to get clear on what her plan was . Turns out my fears were warranted . She wants me to stabilize , then cut 5 mgs every 1-2 months all the way off! She says she's never seen anyone have a problem with that! Ugh......

It's taken me 8 months to start to get a bit stable form cutting two mgs Valium in a year ..... I feel like throwing up at the thought of cutting 5 mgs every couple of months!

She also said I can only dose once a day and that I have to ' turn in' my Valium to her. You are right , she is treating me like an addict , not an adult educated person who wants a doctor who takes her into acount . I've never been an addict in my life . I don't even drink and never have .

 

I feel pretty upset , I had high hopes for this woman , being able to see her on medi- cal and also willing to see me regularly to check on me .

 

But I really don't feel good about her plan , it scares the hell out of me .

Anyone here would you validate my feelings for me , I'm such a wreck these days still I feel very vulnerable to the ideas and influences of doctors . I do know I have to be in charge at least to some degree , along with encouragement . My other doc isn't ideal , he kind of leaves me to it for the most part , and half the time I have no idea what to do , but at least I have some control over my body. It would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help but not pushy.

 

So , I guess I will be telling this new doc that I'm not ready to take on the taper she is proposing .

She also said that Librium has a longer half life than Valium .that is just plain old wrong! Right?

 

Thanks for being here for me everyone , you are all so wonderful . Libr.... I'm sorry it doesn't look like I'll be able to be much help for you with your taper . I do wonder whether maybe I could move forwards a bit with a Librium taper , but if she won't let me go slower as I go down I think it's a no go.

 

Love, MiYu  :smitten:

 

Miyu, I'm sorry this has been such a disappointment. But, you are correct and the doctor is wrong on both counts.

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htm Scroll down to half lives. Chlordiazepoxide is Librium. Diazepam is Valium.

 

It is true that some people have no trouble getting off of benzodiazepines. Apparently that's what she's seen. But estimates are 25-30% will have very difficult tapers and need to go no more than 10%/month. Some 5%/month. Some with holds. Each person is different. You doctor seems to have a huge ego and doesn't know what she doesn't know. She needs to grow up and get some perspective. Some poor people will be her guinea pigs while she learns. You don't want to be one of them.

 

That whole "turn in your Valium" thing is so annoying. She is obviously addiction-focused. You are not an addict. How does she know how much Valium you have, anyway? I sure wouldn't tell her! In fact, I'd just run for the hills!

 

Yes, it would be nice to find a doctor who would be more help, but the truth is, there aren't any. The best help a doctor can do is support you as you take control of your taper. You are much better off with a doctor who is happy to prescribe forever because then you have control of your taper. You are an adult and not an addict and have the right to be in charge of your medical care. Just get the scripts from your cooperative doctor. Do a slow taper according to your body's signals without necessarily telling your doctor. There are many, many people on this forum doing that. They have built up small emergency stashes of pills that way. Emergencies happen. A doctor could move or retire and it could take time to find a new one. A stash is not a bad idea.

 

I really see no point in the world in switching to Librium. Switching can cause problems and Librium could make your taper worse, not better. If you absolutely want to try it, use your current prescriber who lets you do things your way. Find Ashton's crossover charts and do it her way. She does not cross from Librium, but find the slowest benzo you can on her charts and use it as a guideline. Personally, I'd stick with the Valium given how similar the drugs are and what a nuisance Librium is.

 

A word about weighing powder, my bias is I hate scales. Also, my powder clings to things. I can't imagine being able to measure the powder on a scale. Any scale I could afford would be too difficult to use and could not accurately measure such tiny amounts.

 

Love that quote Nova posted. Let some time pass, then go forward with courage. You know more than you think and you can do this.

 

Gard

 

THank you Gard so so much for taking the time to write all this for me..... for validating what I know to be true but get into doubt because I don't feel strong at the moment.

I can't tell you how much it means to me to have this kind of support.... In some ways I feel angry seeing yet another asshole doctor who was actually very condescending with me with my questions, didn't relate to me with respect....definitely in the " doctor knows best" catagory of doctors.  If I hadn't believed in doctor knows best to begin with I wouldn't be in this mess. It's hard for me to trust myself, I'm learning that really.

trust your gut , that saying is a real thing ..... I have been so nauseous the last 24 hours with questioning my 'gut feeling'. Now that I have come to a decision ( with the help of my buddies ), the nausea is gone! It was doubly hard because of the friend who took me to her and thinks she's great, and that I should just submit. Oh well.... my life, my body.

 

Gard , I hope you are starting to feel better, again thank you so much, being validated is so important during this process, I know it is for me anyway.

 

Love to you, Miyu :smitten:

 

 

[[ga...]]

Miyu,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I am feeling better. Not 100%, but no longer stuck at home. 

 

That stuff about your friend does make it hard. I have a friend like that. She thinks I should only do what my doctor says. Some people are just that way. Being invalidated does does make a person waver. It's natural. People are made to need people. It is good that we have each other here.

 

Gard

[[He...]]

MIYU,

I PULLED THIS SENTENCE OUT OF YOUR LAST LONG POST.

 

"My other doc isn't ideal , he kind of leaves me to it for the most part , and half the time I have no idea what to do ,"

 

I am not sure if I am understanding things correctly , but..

 

If your other doc leaves you alone for the most part, is he willing to give you the scripts you need to do a taper? That's a good thing, right?

 

AndYou said he leaves you alone for the most part....isn't that a good thing?

 

You said you don't know what to do. But can you do a symptom based taper, if he is willing to give you  scripts to support it, at your comfortable rate? ( my doc leaves me alone to do it my own way, and I always thought it as a good thing)

 

I understand that the new doc you went to wants to switch you to Librium.

Can you go back to the doc that leaves you alone with your taper for the most part, and share with himwhat the new doc said? Maybe he can help you with a cross over to Librium, if you and he think it will be better than Valium for your particular body, and he can cross you over to Librium the correct way, and help with a cross over amount, and help you with it?

 

Another thought... can you ask your original doc, the one who you say leaves you alone for the most part,  to please get in touch with the doc that calls you an addict, and explain to her that you are NOT an addict, and that you just became dependent on the drug and you are doing the best you can to get off of it comfortably? Sometimes, when a professional is defending you, and one doc speaks to another doc, the other doc is more willing to listen to, and understand the other doc's point of view, ( better than they would listen to a patient) and perhaps she will listen to his opinion. After all, your original doc, certainly knows you better, and he can defend your situation to the new doc very well.

 

Is I possible if they speak to each other, a new plan that is acceptable to all three of you may be formed? And they, together can help you to know how to proceed so you will know what to do?

 

I sure hope you can find some docs who will work together who can help you!

 

I truly am trying to figure out a solution for you. I know how hard you are trying to find an answer, and just how much you are struggling

.

You are in my thoughts and prayers Miyu.

 

I wish you peace,healing,Windows and a new found dr. that will truly help you. That I think are the most important things right now.

 

Heath :)

 

 

 

[[He...]]

Well, I guess you know by now that what I post one day, is just not going to be the same on the next day.

I think it's gone, I think it's better, then it comes back. Then it's a little differen but still there.... what the heck!

These arm and hand pains are NOT gone. Now they have localized in just my right hand. And oh boy is it bad.

That little benzo devil keeps popping it's head and sending me messages that ...oh maybe I have rheumatoid arthritis? What the heck. Part of me knows it's wothdrawal, but I can't help letting that benzo devil make me start thinking all kinds of crazy things.

 

I wish it would just go away!

 

Heath :-[e

[[no...]]

Well, I guess you know by now that what I post one day, is just not going to be the same on the next day.

I think it's gone, I think it's better, then it comes back. Then it's a little differen but still there.... what the heck!

These arm and hand pains are NOT gone. Now they have localized in just my right hand. And oh boy is it bad.

That little benzo devil keeps popping it's head and sending me messages that ...oh maybe I have rheumatoid arthritis? What the heck. Part of me knows it's wothdrawal, but I can't help letting that benzo devil make me start thinking all kinds of crazy things.

 

I wish it would just go away!

 

Heath :-[e

Ditto on that one heath  bloody withdrawal monster I went through the ''Its rheumatoid arthritis'' thing as my joints where bad for ages and it was hell trying to get up in the morning as I was locked up so badly. It then went away for ages but has come and gone again recently so I know how you feel, besides my brain being on fire and all my nerve endings everywhere  my joints and muscles  are hurting again today and the days only just begun   And I won't get started on the mental stuff.  !@#$%^%^*(?!! So your not alone my dear we've got bad stuff going on in good company

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[He...]]

Nova,

You are so kind to commesurate  with me on the horrors of nerve and muscle pain. Damn it hurts! Not only that... I am almost ready to reduce my dose in a few days. So if my only wdfx is the pain in my hand, do I still have to wait and not cut? Does it mean I'm not stable? Or us thus just something that is going to come and go until I am completely off Valium?  Is it like the neck muscle pain that has been with me for months that just comes  and goes when it feels like it?

 

If I wait for all these pains to go away, I would never cut!

 

I think it was Anne or Lynne that said some things just hang around through your whole  taper.

 

I can wait another week, but this is so frustrating! 

 

But thanks again for your support.

I'm wondering if your crazy noisy neighbor has been quieted yet! Talk about frustrating!

Hope you have a better day than I had yesterday!

 

Heath

 

Oh, and wasn't it you who posted that link and configuration about the spiral return of symptoms and how each time a wdfx symptom returns it is just healing deeper and deeper? That article was so helpful to me. It cleared up a lot of my thinking! It makes sense! Thanks for the,ink!

[[no...]]

Morning to ( ALL ) just keep believing that we are still healing even while we hold and fight the I must taper faster to heal   

IMO it will just put you in a worse place,so ..... keep the faith ~CD

Hi CD    I robbed this off  one  Sista' Begoods thread's, ( Thanks Sista'  ) as I thought it was really appropriate  Motto regarding long hold's so am putting it here.

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

 

 

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914) 

Thanks [glow=red,2,300]"Sista"[/glow] it was Cando, that steered me to Indian qoutes and the Animal Totems, so if not for CD I would not have found that quote and I love it, thanks for posting it here for all to see.

Hi Sista'  I've also had an affinity for the Native American wisdom for many, many year's,  since I was a small child, and I'm also part Rain forest Indian which I don't know until  many year's  after feeling an affinity with them.  My Great Grand Father on my Dad's side was Rainforest Indian from the west indies. Everyone forgets that the Indians were there first as well before the slave trade used them as shipping ports to drop off stolen Africans, and my Grandfather (My  Dads dad)  is half African and half Rainforest Indian.    Here is a good website for all things Indian related ''First people http://www.firstpeople.us/ I'm sure you'll  enjoy it  I'm sure you'll also enjoy this  Native Indian chanting put to music

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[no...]]

Hi M 25MG OF  Librium=1OMG  Diazepam, table of  equivalent, half life etc on this link http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

THank you Nova :smitten:

God I hope I'm doing the right thing! No way to know really.....

 

How are you? Any improvement?

sending hugs and hope you start to  feel better soon,

love, Miyu :hug:

Hi M  On this link there is a PDF document underneath the slide show you can down load its all about Withdrawal from Benzos and psychiatric drugs can be disabling and can cause a range of severe physical and psychological effects which often last for months and sometimes years in some cases. I've downloaded it and printed a copy to send to my arsehole Dr with a letter I need to sort out. Benzo info starts on Page 2 but read the whole thing its really helpful  Psychiatric drug withdrawal can be disabling http://cepuk.org/unrecognised-facts/withdrawal-can-be-disabling/

 

Here is a USA Site as well...It's Time To Talk About Benzodiazepines https://www.benzoinfo.com/about-benzodiazepines I hope this information will be helpful to whoever needs it on here

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[no...]]

PS For anyone that doesn't  know how to download the PDF, at the top of the page you will see 4 symbols on the right hand side one of which is a printer on the right of the printer symbol is a page with an arrow pointing down click on that and it wil download on to your pc 

[[be...]]

 

Morning to ( ALL ) just keep believing that we are still healing even while we hold and fight the I must taper faster to heal   

IMO it will just put you in a worse place,so ..... keep the faith ~CD

Hi CD    I robbed this off  one  Sista' Begoods thread's, ( Thanks Sista'  ) as I thought it was really appropriate  Motto regarding long hold's so am putting it here.

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

 

 

When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;

when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.

So long as mists envelop you, be still;

be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists

-- as it surely will.

Then act with courage.

 

Ponca Chief White Eagle (1800's to 1914) 

Thanks [glow=red,2,300]"Sista"[/glow] it was Cando, that steered me to Indian quotes and the Animal Totems, so if not for CD I would not have found that quote and I love it, thanks for posting it here for all to see.

Hi Sista'  I've also had an affinity for the Native American wisdom for many, many year's,  since I was a small child, and I'm also part Rain forest Indian which I don't know until  many year's  after feeling an affinity with them.  My Great Grand Father on my Dad's side was Rainforest Indian from the west indies. Everyone forgets that the Indians were there first as well before the slave trade used them as shipping ports to drop off stolen Africans, and my Grandfather (My  Dads dad)  is half African and half Rainforest Indian.    Here is a good website for all things Indian related ''First people http://www.firstpeople.us/ I'm sure you'll  enjoy it  I'm sure you'll also enjoy this  Native Indian chanting put to music

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[glow=red,2,300]"Sista"[/glow] thanks so much for the links, I will read and will listen, I am thinking on my Fathers side I may have some Indian also, but it may be Mayan, but I know since CD first spoke of these wonderful things I am wanting to get all I can, gives one Peace and much thought. Thank you. When you need the reinforcements to come over we will come and rid apt building of all rodents, especially a two legged one.   Hugs 

[[ga...]]

Hope you are doing OK today, Miyu. Hope you can stick with your original doc and stay completely away from that addictions specialist. I think from your posts that you can do that. 

 

Gard

[[Ca...]]

Hi Guys... -I just been reading... -no cheek in me atm...

Great to see the support going on here, forever finding a way forwards...

 

Im doing ok... -Cut the gabapentin out again as I was dangerously groggy..

-Now its just that WD fatigue sleep...

The big cut did make me realize the many little ways I had healed in that time of holding...

 

Keep up the good work...

[[ga...]]

Hi Guys... -I just been reading... -no cheek in me atm...

Great to see the support going on here, forever finding a way forwards...

 

Im doing ok... -Cut the gabapentin out again as I was dangerously groggy..

-Now its just that WD fatigue sleep...

The big cut did make me realize the many little ways I had healed in that time of holding...

 

Keep up the good work...

 

Good to see you, Cant. Hope the fatigue gets better soon.  :smitten:

[[be...]]

Hi Guys... -I just been reading... -no cheek in me atm...

Great to see the support going on here, forever finding a way forwards...

 

Im doing ok... -Cut the gabapentin out again as I was dangerously groggy..

-Now its just that WD fatigue sleep...

The big cut did make me realize the many little ways I had healed in that time of holding...

 

Keep up the good work...

Hi Cant we will know when you are feeling better the cheeky side will come out, hey just rest and gain strength we will all be here. This is one of the best Support if not the best support thread,  sure do not want to step on any toes, but I think I know one that will ponce soon..

 

Yes those cuts will let you know that long holds are the bomb. Stay Strong my favorite TB and fellow Turtle in Turtle Crime..

[[Ca...]]

Hi Guys... -I just been reading... -no cheek in me atm...

Great to see the support going on here, forever finding a way forwards...

 

Im doing ok... -Cut the gabapentin out again as I was dangerously groggy..

-Now its just that WD fatigue sleep...

The big cut did make me realize the many little ways I had healed in that time of holding...

 

Keep up the good work...

 

Good to see you, Cant. Hope the fatigue gets better soon.  :smitten:

Thanks Gard... -Im fine... -not saying I would rush to do it again though...

 

[[Ca...]]

Hi Guys... -I just been reading... -no cheek in me atm...

Great to see the support going on here, forever finding a way forwards...

 

Im doing ok... -Cut the gabapentin out again as I was dangerously groggy..

-Now its just that WD fatigue sleep...

The big cut did make me realize the many little ways I had healed in that time of holding...

 

Keep up the good work...

Hi Cant we will know when you are feeling better the cheeky side will come out, hey just rest and gain strength we will all be here. This is one of the best Support if not the best support thread,  sure do not want to step on any toes, but I think I know one that will ponce soon..

 

Yes those cuts will let you know that long holds are the bomb. Stay Strong my favorite TB and fellow Turtle in Turtle Crime..

oh thanks my Dearest -Is there a TURTLE support group?? Be Well... All the best with the cuts over the next week or so...

And Thanks for all you do...

 

 

[[ga...]]

Did someone say Turtle Support Group? Here we come!

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/GTY_pet_turtles_as_160615_12x5_1600.jpg

[[He...]]

Hi everyone who is having a somewhat successful taper,

 

Please give me advice...again!

 

Begood.....Please tell me how you taper. From reading your time line it seems that you reduce about .05 every month?

But do you cut .05 all at once and then hold for a month?

Or are you micro tapering daily so you get to .05  during a month's time?

 

And Valley, tell me once more how you do you micro taper  please.

 

And anyone else who wants to chime in...

 

I feel like a pain in the arse! But I need more lecturing! I'm like a small child who just doesn't learn from past experiences.

 

That benzo devil is telling me to cut and I am having a hard time being strong. I have no other symptoms except the burning pain in my arms and hands (but it is actually pretty bad)

I am willing to push on despite the pain because it is the only pain I have, and I can still function pretty well, but I am also thinking I should keep the hold going since its been only 15 days hold so far. And I might very well mess myself up.

I keep thinking that this is going to be one of those things, like the neck pain, that just keeps hanging around, coming and going all the time, so what stop my taper for it?

 

I am wondering if I go to micro taper whether it will make it easier on my brain or whether it will not make a difference.

 

What if I reduce .01 every week. That would come out to .09 reduction every 2 months . Maybe psychologically, it might make me think I was cutting more often even if it was basically the same reduction. (THIS IS OF COURSE KEEPING IT A NO MORE THAN A 5% cut each month.)

 

Why is it so hard to hold? Seems like after two weeks I go bazzerk!

 

Maybe I need a good lecture Or a spanking!

 

Heath