The Long Hold Support Group

[[be...]]

Hi my dear long hold friends.

 

I haven't been on the computer for about a week and won't be again next week. I just tried to read through about 40 pages of this thread. So much going on.

 

I have to say that all the wonderful things everyone said to Heath really helped me too as I am struggling with a really bad wave again. It almost seems like my waves have gotten worse since I've started getting little windows here and there. Is it because I do too much when I feel better?

 

I'm so happy to hear that you are sleeping better Cant. I think that makes everything so much easier to deal with.

 

Congratulations on getting to .85mg BG. I hope your hold goes really well. (I also hope I have the right person  )

 

Teeth pain, yes. Even jaw pain at times.

 

I also have a stash for fear of being cut off. I think I have about a years worth now. My doctor never drops my dose even though I've told him I'm tapering. I hope I didn't just jinx myself! My stash isn't in an easily accessible place though so now I'm thinking I may need to put it somewhere I can get to it faster if there is a disaster. Maybe a couple of spots. One upstairs and one downstairs. My pdoc said that they've done studies that show the benzo's don't lose much in their potency even five years out!!

 

Happy Mother's day to all the mothers here.

 

Even though I haven't been posting much recently I still try to catch up. I think things will change this summer as I will probably be alone all day everyday and since I don't leave the house, agoraphobia sucks, I have my friends here   I do think of all of you often.  :smitten:  :hug:

Stay Strong, I have heard that once we start having windows, that they are bound to come again, hold on, and know that we are all here for you, and that each step we make towards our recovery will be rocky, but we are and always remain "Warriors" and so we do the best we can each moment of the day and the time passes, and we become stronger.

[[HO...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

[[Va...]]

Hi my dear long hold friends.

 

I haven't been on the computer for about a week and won't be again next week. I just tried to read through about 40 pages of this thread. So much going on.

 

I have to say that all the wonderful things everyone said to Heath really helped me too as I am struggling with a really bad wave again. It almost seems like my waves have gotten worse since I've started getting little windows here and there. Is it because I do too much when I feel better?

 

I'm so happy to hear that you are sleeping better Cant. I think that makes everything so much easier to deal with.

 

Congratulations on getting to .85mg BG. I hope your hold goes really well. (I also hope I have the right person  )

 

Teeth pain, yes. Even jaw pain at times.

 

I also have a stash for fear of being cut off. I think I have about a years worth now. My doctor never drops my dose even though I've told him I'm tapering. I hope I didn't just jinx myself! My stash isn't in an easily accessible place though so now I'm thinking I may need to put it somewhere I can get to it faster if there is a disaster. Maybe a couple of spots. One upstairs and one downstairs. My pdoc said that they've done studies that show the benzo's don't lose much in their potency even five years out!!

 

Happy Mother's day to all the mothers here.

 

Even though I haven't been posting much recently I still try to catch up. I think things will change this summer as I will probably be alone all day everyday and since I don't leave the house, agoraphobia sucks, I have my friends here   I do think of all of you often.  :smitten:  :hug:

Great to see you here tntd! Hope all goes well and you can post good news next week. Sorry about the waves.  --V

[[Ca...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

Hope, Its Hard to realize that there is no ONE answer, but a combination of characteristics unique to each individual. From these we have to form our own individual plan, that often evolves as we go... You are putting in a great effort to find the best answers you can, but there may be times where you just have to choose the lesser of two evils...

One thing I have been wondering is, If you have an opiate history, or similar, that although it may have been a while ago, could be complicating things a bit...?

Sorry, It just keeps niggeling at me...

 

As builder said on another forum, long holds might not be as good as a quick updose to stable, and re-taper from there...

But my personal thoughts are that this is best applied to a straight forward tapering situation with no other complications... -purely a dose correction situation...

If there are doubts or other complications, I think that holding is most often the safest way, to avoid compounding the potential problems...

As said, I think one would have to hold a long time beyond stable, before worrying about tolerance...

Hang in there...

 

[[He...]]

Hope, for what it's worth, I agree with Cantfly.

[[be...]]

Hope, for what it's worth, I agree with Cantfly.

Ditto. Good sound advice.

[[ca...]]

Ditto on Cantfly`s statement and Opiate history IMO does play a role !

 

[[ly...]]

 

 

I think it helps to make a decision and stick with it as long as it takes to give things a fair chance.  As Cant said, there is no absolute answer for any of us.  It can only make you crazy to keep second guessing.  You may have to try a number of things until you find something that works for you...but this is the process - the nature of the beast we are dealing with.

 

I would say that if a hold does not help then it's time to try another tact.  But it just ramps anxiety (and symptoms) to keeping spinning the doubt in your mind.  I would settle in and take the pressure off myself.  Only you can decide how long you will give it.  I would probably set a time-frame (2 months, 3, 4??) and re-evaluate.  Are things better, the same, worse?  I truly don't think a hold hurts; but I do believe cutting through bad symptoms does.

 

When you run into trouble on a taper there are really only a few things you can try.  Cut, updose or hold.  So these are the choices.  There are only 3 things you need to consider.  After my reading (and personal experience) I pick hold.  All any of us can do is try something and see what happens.

[[ga...]]

Hope, for what it's worth, I agree with Cantfly.

Ditto. Good sound advice.

 

Sounds good to me, too!

[[Th...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

 

I often wondered the same thing. I think to myself if I'm having sxe my brain must not be getting enough to cause further dependence but the opposite; it's trying to balance again in the opposite direction. Growing/repairing those gaba receptors and trimming the glutamate ones if I'm getting that correct.

 

 

[[ly...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

 

I often wondered the same thing. I think to myself if I'm having sxe my brain must not be getting enough to cause further dependence but the opposite; it's trying to balance again in the opposite direction. Growing/repairing those gaba receptors and trimming the glutamate ones if I'm getting that correct.

 

My experience has been one of repair as I drop lower.  My brain is adjusting to smaller and smaller amounts of xanax and not producing new and/or worsening symptoms - in fact, they are lessening and dropping off.  I can only see this as a good thing.  I had very bad wd at 2mgs and 1mg and then .3 - all, imo, the result of big/fast cuts.  I'm way, way better now.

[[no...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

    Hope, holds help many i think mine is helping and its only been 10 days and i am no rush to go back into the Rabbit Hole if i can help it ! And that Turtle is making me hungry Cant 

 

Do holds ever cause tolerance withdrawl?

 

 

Hi  Hope    the post's below maybe helpful for you to read and ease some of your worries hopefully

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the way "tolerance withdrawal' is bandied about on the benzo boards (try saying that five times really fast) drives me nuts. Especially since like you said, it's usually used to scare people into keeping cutting faster, which is almost always the opposite of what they need to be doing. VERY rarely is "just keep cutting" the right answer. Drives me nuts. Feels like I'm always the voice in the wilderness on that one. People go too fast, get into withdrawal, hold for a short time; their symptoms get worse (unrelated to the hold, it's just ongoing withdrawal from going too fast before); they get told they're in "tolerance withdrawal" and they need to start cutting again. Yet when someone CTs and has prolonged withdrawal for months or years, nobody says it's "tolerance withdrawal", because obviously that's impossible if you aren't taking the drug. What's called tolerance withdrawal is almost always just plain delayed withdrawal symptoms which are pretty much universal with benzos. Benzos are notoriously up and down and nonlinear and long and drawn out, in withdrawal. Okay, thanks for letting me rant about that. The whole thing drives me nuts (she says for the third time).

 

 

 

Sorry, I still don't get tolerance withdrawal.

 

 

 

 

1) there is tolerance withdrawal before people start to taper

 

I believe this would be the physiological effect of addiction -- your body is craving more of the drug to obtain the same effect. Calling it withdrawal is a stretch.

 

    2) tolerance withdrawal that occurs when people hold too long

 

The idea is to taper slowly so downregulated receptors get time to re-adapt, along with the rest of the nervous system. "Tolerance withdrawal" when people hold too long sounds like plain old withdrawal symptoms catching up. I can't see how further destabilizing the nervous system by persisting with a taper can remedy this.

 

 

    3) the fact tolerance withdrawal stops or lessens when people are cutting.

 

If it does this, it's because receptors are re-adapting. That would be a successful rate of taper. If the receptors are re-adapting, a hold in the middle of a taper would not do any harm -- it would probably help consolidate the recovery of the nervous system.

 

So I still don't get "tolerance withdrawal." It seems like a misleading term for a hazy concept.

 

 

 

Tolerance withdrawal, in the context of a taper, does not exist. We were already tolerant to the benzo at the higher dose when it wasn't working, so it stands to reason that we will be tolerant to all of the lower doses we taper down to. Some people think that if you hold too long at a particular dose in your taper, you become tolerant to it and experience symptoms. Often, what these symptoms are, are symptom from the previous cut. For instance, someone cutting 0.25mg a fortnight Valium may complain of tolerance withdrawal symptoms when they hold for a few more weeks at the new dose, but what they are actually experiencing, are symptoms from the other cuts, catching up with them.

 

 

As for tolerance withdrawal, boy, that sure can scare the hell out of a person doing a benzo taper, but it really seems more like the body playing catch up. I just don't understand how people who support this can so readily ignore the fact that benzos, certain ones in particular, can stay in the body for a long time. I was just looking up half life on klonopin because when I am nearing the 2mg mark I want to move from three times a day to two times a day, which I believe can be done though it will no doubt trigger IW until my body adapts, but each time I cut, I have experienced IW and then it has passed, but I digress. When I was looking at the half lifes and how long some of these benzos stay in the body, IIRC some of them were 100 days as a maximum. That astounded me. It also made me realize that if a drug remains in your body for over 30 days during that 30 days, what is the amount it is in your body at?

 

I would presume the amount is related to the dose you were taking, a level if you will, that is in your body. And if you cut and keep cutting, you would eventually hit a point where a higher amount was in your system despite that you have been taking a lower dose and then it adjust to the new lower amount after that said time frame passes. So your cuts may be going well, but if it is staying in your body at a previous level or a level higher than your dose, when that level drops according to your cuts, you will feel it.

 

That is when withdrawal will hit and a hold would be required because of the half life issue, no? Continuing to cut through that would just make it worse. And I can't imagine a hold triggering withdrawal. During my 'stabilization' where I held at 3.5mg which was lower than my average, I held for six weeks (longer than that magical month) and in the last two weeks of that hold, all withdrawal effects were gone. I was 'normal' again barring some very minor morning tremors that eventually dissipated and were IW.

 

 

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

[[be...]]

I agree Lynn I have only seen healing with each drop and can handle the very mild blips. I believe that the Brain needs to heal and it will take as long as it takes, but it needs rest and we have to let it do its thing. I am completely functional and that is the best feeling, windows heck I must have them, but because this has gone so well for me, I might of missed them.

[[ly...]]

I agree Lynn I have only seen healing with each drop and can handle the very mild blips. I believe that the Brain needs to heal and it will take as long as it takes, but it needs rest and we have to let it do its thing. I am completely functional and that is the best feeling, windows heck I must have them, but because this has gone so well for me, I might of missed them.

 

My wd ramps up on cuts and then recedes.  This is all the evidence of healing that I need.

[[ca...]]

Good morning ( ALL ) Nova, you nailed my situation on the head with this quote ~ Tolerance withdrawal, in the context of a taper, does not exist. We were already tolerant to the benzo at the higher dose when it wasn't working, so it stands to reason that we will be tolerant to all of the lower doses we taper down to. Some people think that if you hold too long at a particular dose in your taper, you become tolerant to it and experience symptoms. Often, what these symptoms are, are symptom from the previous cut. For instance, someone cutting 0.25mg a fortnight Valium may complain of tolerance withdrawal symptoms when they hold for a few more weeks at the new dose, but what they are actually experiencing, are symptoms from the other cuts, catching up with them. Hope all is well ! ~ CD aka ~ Chappy

[[HO...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

Hope, Its Hard to realize that there is no ONE answer, but a combination of characteristics unique to each individual. From these we have to form our own individual plan, that often evolves as we go... You are putting in a great effort to find the best answers you can, but there may be times where you just have to choose the lesser of two evils...

One thing I have been wondering is, If you have an opiate history, or similar, that although it may have been a while ago, could be complicating things a bit...?

Sorry, It just keeps niggeling at me...

 

As builder said on another forum, long holds might not be as good as a quick updose to stable, and re-taper from there...

But my personal thoughts are that this is best applied to a straight forward tapering situation with no other complications... -purely a dose correction situation...

If there are doubts or other complications, I think that holding is most often the safest way, to avoid compounding the potential problems...

As said, I think one would have to hold a long time beyond stable, before worrying about tolerance...

Hang in there...

[/quote

That's interesting that you ask I was going through my medical records because I was worried about things from when I was younger and my parents for more in control I was on tramadol for a while and I had a withdrawl from benzo after four month use with phenobarbital as a teen, but never had wothdrawl reaction. I also have been on other psych meds and have smoked marijuana(legal state). I'm going to update my signature now that I know more info from my teen years. I'm 38 now. Thanks for all your support and looking into details.

[[Ca...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

Hope, Its Hard to realize that there is no ONE answer, but a combination of characteristics unique to each individual. From these we have to form our own individual plan, that often evolves as we go... You are putting in a great effort to find the best answers you can, but there may be times where you just have to choose the lesser of two evils...

One thing I have been wondering is, If you have an opiate history, or similar, that although it may have been a while ago, could be complicating things a bit...?

Sorry, It just keeps niggeling at me...

 

As builder said on another forum, long holds might not be as good as a quick updose to stable, and re-taper from there...

But my personal thoughts are that this is best applied to a straight forward tapering situation with no other complications... -purely a dose correction situation...

If there are doubts or other complications, I think that holding is most often the safest way, to avoid compounding the potential problems...

As said, I think one would have to hold a long time beyond stable, before worrying about tolerance...

Hang in there...

[/quote

That's interesting that you ask I was going through my medical records because I was worried about things from when I was younger and my parents for more in control I was on tramadol for a while and I had a withdrawl from benzo after four month use with phenobarbital as a teen, but never had wothdrawl reaction. I also have been on other psych meds and have smoked marijuana(legal state). I'm going to update my signature now that I know more info from my teen years. I'm 38 now. Thanks for all your support and looking into details.

Thanks Hope, Just looking at patterns or similarities, as you know, I was short term on any decent doses of benzo too... -But have other meds involved...

I sure as hell never expected this situation...

Take care...

 

[[ba...]]

I have been awal for a very long time,if anyone remembers me. I got very ill in December, and have been on a round of intense medications, it's not over. Tapering went out the window. It's not over yet. Just wanted to say whats up, and assure everyone I am alive.

[[Va...]]

I have been awal for a very long time,if anyone remembers me. I got very ill in December, and have been on a round of intense medications, it's not over. Tapering went out the window. It's not over yet. Just wanted to say whats up, and assure everyone I am alive.

So good to hear from you BD. Of course we remember you! I hope you get everything straightened out.  --V

[[HO...]]

I have been awal for a very long time,if anyone remembers me. I got very ill in December, and have been on a round of intense medications, it's not over. Tapering went out the window. It's not over yet. Just wanted to say whats up, and assure everyone I am alive.

 

I'm new, but glad your back. What happened? How are you feeling?

[[HO...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

Hope, Its Hard to realize that there is no ONE answer, but a combination of characteristics unique to each individual. From these we have to form our own individual plan, that often evolves as we go... You are putting in a great effort to find the best answers you can, but there may be times where you just have to choose the lesser of two evils...

One thing I have been wondering is, If you have an opiate history, or similar, that although it may have been a while ago, could be complicating things a bit...?

Sorry, It just keeps niggeling at me...

 

As builder said on another forum, long holds might not be as good as a quick updose to stable, and re-taper from there...

But my personal thoughts are that this is best applied to a straight forward tapering situation with no other complications... -purely a dose correction situation...

If there are doubts or other complications, I think that holding is most often the safest way, to avoid compounding the potential problems...

As said, I think one would have to hold a long time beyond stable, before worrying about tolerance...

Hang in there...

[/quote

That's interesting that you ask I was going through my medical records because I was worried about things from when I was younger and my parents for more in control I was on tramadol for a while and I had a withdrawl from benzo after four month use with phenobarbital as a teen, but never had wothdrawl reaction. I also have been on other psych meds and have smoked marijuana(legal state). I'm going to update my signature now that I know more info from my teen years. I'm 38 now. Thanks for all your support and looking into details.

Thanks Hope, Just looking at patterns or similarities, as you know, I was short term on any decent doses of benzo too... -But have other meds involved...

I sure as hell never expected this situation...

Take care...

 

Thank you. You are always helping me out. I think I'm just in a state of shock right now. The 5 stages of grief I relate to right now. It's so nice to have you helped out! All of you have been amazing!

[[Ca...]]

After my cold turkey being 7 weeks off of 0.5-1 mg daily I was put back on at 2mgs daily. I held there for 2 months and 1 day (8 weeks) and began tapering. Now at 14 weeks tapering from there. Six months can be a long time to hold in my opinion. In that time you can become intolerant or build up more of a physical dependency on it, and make withdrawal that much more difficult and pronounced. But this is only my opinion. Others may disagree. 

 

What do others think about this statement for someone like me with short term use but severe withdrawl symptoms?

Hope, Its Hard to realize that there is no ONE answer, but a combination of characteristics unique to each individual. From these we have to form our own individual plan, that often evolves as we go... You are putting in a great effort to find the best answers you can, but there may be times where you just have to choose the lesser of two evils...

One thing I have been wondering is, If you have an opiate history, or similar, that although it may have been a while ago, could be complicating things a bit...?

Sorry, It just keeps niggeling at me...

 

As builder said on another forum, long holds might not be as good as a quick updose to stable, and re-taper from there...

But my personal thoughts are that this is best applied to a straight forward tapering situation with no other complications... -purely a dose correction situation...

If there are doubts or other complications, I think that holding is most often the safest way, to avoid compounding the potential problems...

As said, I think one would have to hold a long time beyond stable, before worrying about tolerance...

Hang in there...

[/quote

That's interesting that you ask I was going through my medical records because I was worried about things from when I was younger and my parents for more in control I was on tramadol for a while and I had a withdrawl from benzo after four month use with phenobarbital as a teen, but never had wothdrawl reaction. I also have been on other psych meds and have smoked marijuana(legal state). I'm going to update my signature now that I know more info from my teen years. I'm 38 now. Thanks for all your support and looking into details.

Thanks Hope, Just looking at patterns or similarities, as you know, I was short term on any decent doses of benzo too... -But have other meds involved...

I sure as hell never expected this situation...

Take care...

 

Thank you. You are always helping me out. I think I'm just in a state of shock right now. The 5 stages of grief I relate to right now. It's so nice to have you helped out! All of you have been amazing!

The pieces will come togeather, often when we least expect... when I look back to pre Xmas, my actual dose hasnt changed much... but the situation as a whole sure has improved... Im not flying blind, and have confidence in my choices...

You will get there too... -you Are getting there...

 

[[Ca...]]

I have been awal for a very long time,if anyone remembers me. I got very ill in December, and have been on a round of intense medications, it's not over. Tapering went out the window. It's not over yet. Just wanted to say whats up, and assure everyone I am alive.

So good to hear from you BD. Of course we remember you! I hope you get everything straightened out.  --V

Hi BD, I probably just missed you,

Be Well..

 

Hi V, hope u r doing ok..?

You also Be Well...

 

Night All...

[[Va...]]

I have been awal for a very long time,if anyone remembers me. I got very ill in December, and have been on a round of intense medications, it's not over. Tapering went out the window. It's not over yet. Just wanted to say whats up, and assure everyone I am alive.

So good to hear from you BD. Of course we remember you! I hope you get everything straightened out.  --V

Hi BD, I probably just missed you,

Be Well..

 

Hi V, hope u r doing ok..?

You also Be Well...

 

Night All...

Doing ok can't. Thanks for asking.  --V

[[Th...]]

Good morning ( ALL ) Nova, you nailed my situation on the head with this quote ~ Tolerance withdrawal, in the context of a taper, does not exist. We were already tolerant to the benzo at the higher dose when it wasn't working, so it stands to reason that we will be tolerant to all of the lower doses we taper down to. Some people think that if you hold too long at a particular dose in your taper, you become tolerant to it and experience symptoms. Often, what these symptoms are, are symptom from the previous cut. For instance, someone cutting 0.25mg a fortnight Valium may complain of tolerance withdrawal symptoms when they hold for a few more weeks at the new dose, but what they are actually experiencing, are symptoms from the other cuts, catching up with them. Hope all is well ! ~ CD aka ~ Chappy

 

I'm glad to hear this as I heard someone say "never start a taper in tolerance or it can cause protracted withdrawal "

 

This made no sense to me as most of us started our taper when we realized the drugs were no longer working. It sounded wrong but gave me the willies.