The Long Hold Support Group

[[be...]]

Thank you Begood and Valley..... Any alternatives to OJ.? I don't do well with citrus for some reason. Perhaps Vit C , and I can do the nut butter sandwich 

Glass Milk, eat whole sanwich instead half.

[[be...]]

Thank you Begood and Valley..... Any alternatives to OJ.? I don't do well with citrus for some reason. Perhaps Vit C , and I can do the nut butter sandwich 

Glass Milk, eat whole sanwich instead half.

But I think it needs to OJ  sorry you can not take maybe pulp free?

[[...]]

Thank you Begood and Valley..... Any alternatives to OJ.? I don't do well with citrus for some reason. Perhaps Vit C , and I can do the nut butter sandwich 

Glass Milk, eat whole sanwich instead half.

 

Will try it Begood..... Thank you ! You are an angel

[[be...]]

Thank you Begood and Valley..... Any alternatives to OJ.? I don't do well with citrus for some reason. Perhaps Vit C , and I can do the nut butter sandwich 

Glass Milk, eat whole sanwich instead half.

 

Will try it Begood..... Thank you ! You are an angel

Wrote another post, it will not work with milk, can you use pulp free OJ, because this and the sandwich work on the adrenal surges do a google search.

[[ga...]]

 

Thanks Gard, But sorry, we worry/care about you too... and not just because you make a great special cake...

 

Am feeling much better than earlier today... just a small change in one of my meds... not a solution, but an improvment...

 

Best wishes to all and extra to those not so well...

 

A Welcome to BlackJack... -BJ i left a reply on the updose thread, but much the same as the existing replies...

 

OK, I confess, I ordered the cake from a bakery. And it was supposed to look like a wedding cake!   (Maybe that thread was why my brain crashed! )

 

Am glad you have found some improvement and sure hope it continues!

well it was one wild night... Free is still partying, she is playing led zeppelin on BG's music thread... I liked the wedding dress... it was very shell fish... and the spoon to eat the cake... you could shovel it in with that... and poor Julz is still cleaning up the mess we left....

-wonder what crazy people do for fun..

 

Lol... -I was going to mention chickens turtles sloths and the odd slug n snail... but i thought we might never see him again...

 

Oh, good point. These things never occur to me! ...And poor Julz! This is why I do not have a blog. I do not want to have to cleanup after your parties!

[[ga...]]

Welcome, Blackjack. Holding worked for me and for a lot of others. If your brain is in need of stability, a l-o-n-g hold can be just the thing. Hope it gives you some relief.

 

Warning, there is a lot of weird stuff going on around here: giant snails and sloths, chickens riding tortoises, V's beloved chickens under constant threat of becoming someone's dinner, etc. But we're not the only crazy thread. Just follow Cantfly around and you'll find plenty of craziness! Shh. Don't let him know I said that.

 

Gard

Im sure i will be adding some craziness to the mix.  Im hurtin right now, brother.

 

Craziness is always welcome, but don't tell Cantfly I said that either. He's crazy enough already. Truly. He behaves himself better on this thread than on most!

 

I'm really sorry you're hurting. Sadly, most everybody who shows up here is not in good shape when they arrive.   I think we are crazy to distract ourselves. At least when we feel able.

 

Hang on, Blackjack. Each day even we turtles are one day closer to freedom!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

MiYu, at bedtime a glass of good O.J and  half any type of Nut butter sandwich. I think Liver uses all glucose at night and around 3am we are depleted, I would try for a wlhile at least 2 wks or more.  Hi Cant.....

OJ is an excellent natural cortisol suppressant. I put powdered vitamin c in mine. 

 

Seriously? Is it the vitamin C?

[[Va...]]

MiYu, at bedtime a glass of good O.J and  half any type of Nut butter sandwich. I think Liver uses all glucose at night and around 3am we are depleted, I would try for a wlhile at least 2 wks or more.  Hi Cant.....

OJ is an excellent natural cortisol suppressant. I put powdered vitamin c in mine. 

 

Seriously? Is it the vitamin C?

Yes.

[[He...]]

Warm thoughts and cyber hugs to everybody. Especially thinking of those who are suffering. I get windows, so don't worry about me. But I remember those days of no windows. My heart goes out to everyone stuck in waves.

 

I met someone who rapid tapered K (because she didn't know better) and was stuck in waves for 2 years. She had 2 small children she put in daycare. She held on with support from her husband and a telephone friend. And then the waves started to subside. Now she is healed and is a teacher at a local college. I could not believe the story of suffering she was telling me and looking at her today. She is free! One day, we will all be free!

 

 

 

Gard

 

Amen to that!!!!  Heath

[[He...]]

Welcome, Blackjack. Holding worked for me and for a lot of others. If your brain is in need of stability, a l-o-n-g hold can be just the thing. Hope it gives you some relief.

 

Warning, there is a lot of weird stuff going on around here: giant snails and sloths, chickens riding tortoises, V's beloved chickens under constant threat of becoming someone's dinner, etc. But we're not the only crazy thread. Just follow Cantfly around and you'll find plenty of craziness! Shh. Don't let him know I said that.

 

Gard

Im sure i will be adding some craziness to the mix.  Im hurtin right now, brother.

 

Hey blackjack!

Brother is really a sister. Just saying when I as new here, I thought Vallyum was a she...but he's a he!  talk about crazy! Count me in!

Heath

[[He...]]

MiYu, at bedtime a glass of good O.J and  half any type of Nut butter sandwich. I think Liver uses all glucose at night and around 3am we are depleted, I would try for a wlhile at least 2 wks or more.  Hi Cant.....

 

That sounds like a good idea Begood. I'm going to try it too. Many people say not to eat after 8 pm if you want to lose welght. But I need to eat SOMETHING in order to sleep well. So I'm going to try that nutbutter and the orange juice.  I actually like both of those. And it's better than cookies or jelly donuts!

Thanks!  Heath

[[Ca...]]

We made it to the shops today and you all have convinced us to be healthy...

 

I am still feeling ok -not happy about having to add GPN, but i think it was getting to the point where i need to determine how much is accident related nerve damage...  obviously rgere is some, I have no hot/cold sensarion on my belly and much of my left side is numb and "chewey" -like after a needle at the dentist... my abdo muscles have gone spastic as my  WD have eased at 2V...

B ut how can one say for sure its not still V WD SX??? Aaaaggghhhh... will give it a few days and reassess...

My son C14 is rather ill following his HPV immunisation booster... but perhaps it is a tummy bug... hydration and temp are the issues atm... but ok thus far...

 

Oh, and Gard, did you whisper something??? -what i dont hear... -BG knows.. 

 

Oh, and i got a honey moon pic for our happy holders...

 

[[be...]]

We made it to the shops today and you all have convinced us to be healthy...

 

I am still feeling ok -not happy about having to add GPN, but i think it was getting to the point where i need to determine how much is accident related nerve damage...  obviously rgere is some, I have no hot/cold sensarion on my belly and much of my left side is numb and "chewey" -like after a needle at the dentist... my abdo muscles have gone spastic as my  WD have eased at 2V...

B ut how can one say for sure its not still V WD SX??? Aaaaggghhhh... will give it a few days and reassess...

My son C14 is rather ill following his HPV immunisation booster... but perhaps it is a tummy bug... hydration and temp are the issues atm... but ok thus far...

 

Oh, and Gard, did you whisper something??? -what i dont hear... -BG knows.. 

 

Oh, and i got a honey moon pic for our happy holders...

 

OH NO do not let Valley see the pic of me as a sandwich, he will feed it to his [glow=red,2,300]"CHICKS" [/glow] and I had planned to go get some eggs this morning. Lovely "HM" pic.... :-* :-* :smitten: :smitten:

[[be...]]

Can't so sorry your Son is feeling the effects of his Hep shot, I can not take any shots anymore as I became allergic and had very high fever and arm swollen, and so so sick, like I was delirous that lasted for two days, finally went in to see Doctor, and he said no more vaccines....I know you are keeping a good watch over him. Hope you get to feeling better, a lot you have had to deal with, but I know you will prevail. :smitten:

[[Ca...]]

Can't so sorry your Son is feeling the effects of his Hep shot, I can not take any shots anymore as I became allergic and had very high fever and arm swollen, and so so sick, like I was delirous that lasted for two days, finally went in to see Doctor, and he said no more vaccines....I know you are keeping a good watch over him. Hope you get to feeling better, a lot you have had to deal with, but I know you will prevail. :smitten:

Thanks BG... we doing ok now... C14 bit better still... headaches now, but hydrated ok...

So, less needles for you... -a bit of a bonus, in its own way...

Asked chemist about that D-Limonene citrus oil... -surprise... not a clue... Alovera juice or products... no... But Organic oranges and carrots were on special... -It was a sign...

 

How is everyone holding up???

Strength and Determination to anyone thats in the midst of it all...

BlackJack, Miyu... -hope all is ok...

How are the recent jumpers going? -best wishes...

 

And... as BG remembered...

We have A Happy Birthday for Freeme... (21yo... -but ssshhh)

Have a great day Free!!!

 

Well... scrambled EGGs at BGs... -TY Valley...

 

[[ga...]]

Happy Birthday, Free!

I hope you have a peaceful day

 

 

http://www.azbirthdaycollections.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Happy-Birthday-Cake-Images-Download-1.jpg

[[fr...]]

  Thanks all,  No not belated, it is today. 

[[ga...]]

  Thanks all,  No not belated, it is today. 

 

Oh, good. I changed it, and then I quick baked you a cake!!

[[fr...]]

  Very nice, looks delicious and chocolate, my favorite.  Thanks again. 

[[Va...]]

We made it to the shops today and you all have convinced us to be healthy...

 

I am still feeling ok -not happy about having to add GPN, but i think it was getting to the point where i need to determine how much is accident related nerve damage...  obviously rgere is some, I have no hot/cold sensarion on my belly and much of my left side is numb and "chewey" -like after a needle at the dentist... my abdo muscles have gone spastic as my  WD have eased at 2V...

B ut how can one say for sure its not still V WD SX??? Aaaaggghhhh... will give it a few days and reassess...

My son C14 is rather ill following his HPV immunisation booster... but perhaps it is a tummy bug... hydration and temp are the issues atm... but ok thus far...

 

Oh, and Gard, did you whisper something??? -what i dont hear... -BG knows.. 

 

Oh, and i got a honey moon pic for our happy holders...

 

OH NO do not let Valley see the pic of me as a sandwich, he will feed it to his [glow=red,2,300]"CHICKS" [/glow] and I had planned to go get some eggs this morning. Lovely "HM" pic.... :-* :-* :smitten: :smitten:

LOL. I'm sure they'll eat it and give you plenty of eggs BG. 

[[Bl...]]

Hello all. Hope everyone is doing well today. I am still really hurting. I was feeling pretty well last week and this week has been getting progressively worse. Cant eat, cant sleep, cant stop crying, hurt everywhere.  Just really in a bad place.  Constant fear of losing my job and not being able to go on vacation Sunday.  Feel like im letting everyone down.  The guilt of not being able to take care of my responsibilities is the worst.  Basically ruined my taper updosing back to my original dose trying to get well and it seemed to help for a short time now i am back to this.  It is just so hard to imagine ever getting over this.  I am praying that if i just hold on for a little longer i will start to feel well again, but honestly i am finding it difficult to keep hopeful. Has anybody here experienced anything like this?  Sometimes i think my case is too severe to be fixed.

 

Much love

BJ

[[be...]]

Can't so sorry your Son is feeling the effects of his Hep shot, I can not take any shots anymore as I became allergic and had very high fever and arm swollen, and so so sick, like I was delirous that lasted for two days, finally went in to see Doctor, and he said no more vaccines....I know you are keeping a good watch over him. Hope you get to feeling better, a lot you have had to deal with, but I know you will prevail. :smitten:

Thanks BG... we doing ok now... C14 bit better still... headaches now, but hydrated ok...

So, less needles for you... -a bit of a bonus, in its own way...

Asked chemist about that D-Limonene citrus oil... -surprise... not a clue... Alovera juice or products... no... But Organic oranges and carrots were on special... -It was a sign...

 

How is everyone holding up???

Strength and Determination to anyone thats in the midst of it all...

BlackJack, Miyu... -hope all is ok...

How are the recent jumpers going? -best wishes...

 

And... as BG remembered...

We have A Happy Birthday for Freeme... (21yo... -but ssshhh)

Have a great day Free!!!

 

Well... scrambled EGGs at BGs... -TY Valley...

Glad to hear C14 is getting better. I really think you need to do a search on the d-limodene, it is good for gut issues too, it has nothing medicinal in it, but I tell you it is the best thing since Egg Salad sandwiches.....

[[no...]]

Hello all. Hope everyone is doing well today. I am still really hurting. I was feeling pretty well last week and this week has been getting progressively worse. Cant eat, cant sleep, cant stop crying, hurt everywhere.  Just really in a bad place.  Constant fear of losing my job and not being able to go on vacation Sunday.  Feel like im letting everyone down.  The guilt of not being able to take care of my responsibilities is the worst.  Basically ruined my taper updosing back to my original dose trying to get well and it seemed to help for a short time now i am back to this.  It is just so hard to imagine ever getting over this.  I am praying that if i just hold on for a little longer i will start to feel well again, but honestly i am finding it difficult to keep hopeful. Has anybody here experienced anything like this?  Sometimes i think my case is too severe to be fixed.

 

Much love

BJ

Hi BJ,  EVERYONE thinks their the one that's never going to get well  or the updose/long hold won't work for them, I'm sure everyone on this thread, well ALL of BB had or has that thought quite often I know I do but its another withdrawal symptom in its self, and I'm having one of those days myself today

 

Below is a list of that V posts from time to time of lots of other people who also thought they were hopeless cases and nothing was going to work for them including long holds. And I put a few on the up-dose support group of people who thought their up dose wasn’t going to work but did eventually, methods take time and patience to wait long enough to allow them to stabilise you however long that might be .

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

 

Updated chicken/turtle taperers propaganda list:

 

"Yes, most of the time if people hold long enough, eventually they do come to feel better.  It can take a long time, especially if they've been tapering too fast and have gotten ahead of their body's ability to rebalance itself.  Sometimes people need to just stop tapering and take some number of months for healing, before starting to taper again.

 

In general, I hold my taper whenever I feel my symptoms ramp up at all, and I hold until they settle down. Periodically I will do a longer hold just to give my brain some extra healing time. So far every time I've done that I've had a really great period afterwards, several really good months, even once I start tapering again.

 

That's how I approach holds. However, I'm on a very slow, stable, regulated taper. People who are in more trouble usually need to hold longer, and usually don't get relief as quickly as I do."

 

"Basically, holds are how we give our brains/bodies time to catch up and heal and re-establish some kind of homeostasis during the tapering process.  So when to do them and for how long is very variable and depends on the person, the taper, their symptoms, their history, etc."

 

"I highly doubt that holding will harm you, but I've seen people who've taken very long to recover after getting messed up during too-aggressive or unstable tapers. It doesn't look all that different (in terms of symptoms) from when people CT or taper all the way off a med too harshly and end up in protracted withdrawal. It's just that people end up in that same shape without actually having come all the way off the meds."

 

"If you've thrown yourself into chaotic withdrawal syndrome by ill-advised experimentation (or poor advice), holding is probably preferable to further decreasing or quitting altogether.

 

You need to bring some order to the chaos. If you hold at one level (of all your drugs), you are at least giving your nervous system some stability. Given the constants -- which still may be causing adverse effects, etc. -- your nervous system will regroup over time.

 

Once you see some consistency in symptom pattern, you can carefully adjust dosage to see what will help."

 

"If you have been tapering systematically and run into a rough spot, holding can help you get past it. At least, when you hold, you can track your symptom pattern and see what the balance of waves and windows might be. If windows are gradually getting longer and more frequent -- a positive sign -- your nervous system is adjusting to the cumulative decreases and you will eventually be in a position to continue tapering.

 

If during a hold the windows pattern is not promising, a slight updose may be called for."

 

"For me, I hate these meds so much, that holding feels like they're winning somehow.

 

I keep trying to tell myself that it's ME that's winning, as I heal. Because I know that I heal and adapt during holds. I can feel it happening. If I hold long enough, I get to where I'm feeling pretty good. I encourage you to allow yourself the experience of holding long enough to feel good, even if that takes months. It's SO encouraging to get to that point. I cling to the memories of those times, the thoughts I find myself thinking (life is good, there's hope in my future); the way I feel strong and able to deal with stress and extra activity; and the way that even with these tiny increments, when I hold long enough to let myself feel the healing, each step I feel even better than the one before. I can tell that I'm emerging from the damage these drugs have done to me."

 

"Over the course of my journey, I have learned many things.  First and foremost would be to taper slowly.  Have patience and don’t let the calendar determine when you will be off of your medication.  Hold when necessary for as long as necessary to maintain your stability as much as possible.

 

Face your fears and they will diminish or disappear.  Keep yourself busy with activities and don’t dwell on your symptoms.

 

Symptoms don’t last forever; windows of clarity occur.  Cherish the windows and know that more will come and that they are a sign of healing."

 

"The first three things anyone needs to learn about tapering benzos:

 

1. Slow slow slow.

 

2. A sense of feeling panicked and like you need to rush and do something-something-anything-anything about your withdrawal symptoms is actually a classic symptom of withdrawal itself. It's very important to learn to resist that urge. The best thing you can do is usually nothing at all, just support your body's healing by good diet, gentle exercise, meditative breathing if possible, and a regular schedule of sleep/wake/eat etc. "

 

3. There's a lag time with benzo tapers. You can make a cut and do okay, make another cut and do okay, and so on, and then all at once it will catch up with you cumulatively and you can really hit the wall. It's much better to start slow and small with small cuts and long breaks in between cuts, until you have a chance to see how the withdrawal symptoms come and go over time. It's typical with benzo tapers for there to be days when you feel great and you're sure you're all better, followed by worse days, back and forth. So see #1, don't push your luck. With practice and experience you'll learn the best pace for you. But it's a lot easier if you don't overdo it and crash--it can really set you back to do that."

 

"Symptoms are worsened by anxiety and fear." - Prof Ashton

 

"You can return to normal health." - Prof Ashton

 

"You must keep a positive attitude, be courageous." - Prof Ashton

 

"Allow time for your nervous system to recover. It will."- Prof Ashton

 

"The key to everything is patience. You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it."

 

"The secret of patience is doing something else in the meanwhile"

 

"Start small and conservative. Start with a small cut and a long hold. Don't try to follow a calendar schedule; follow your body's schedule instead, by observing your own symptoms.

 

Keep a daily journal of symptoms (ranking them on a numerical scale of 1 to 5 or something like that). Don't trust yourself to remember the way your symptoms wax and wane--the drugs and the withdrawal actually interfere with our ability to reliably perceive patterns. (Trust me on this.  It's pretty much universal. Your mind will lie to you.)

 

Write it down each day and you'll see the patterns emerge.

 

Do a few small cuts and long holds this way until you have a feel for how your body is going to respond to cuts and how the withdrawal symptoms are going to unfold and play out and resolve for you.

 

There are often delayed effects from a cut that don't show up right away, and if you taper too fast, those "lag time" symptoms can add up and hit hard, and it's too late to slow down because you already made the cuts. So take it slow with long holds, and allow the full pattern to play out, so that you become familiar with it.

 

Collect data this way for two or three months. Once you have a track record, you can then decide if you want to try larger cuts and/or shorter holds.

 

Experiment conservatively until you find your optimal rate of taper.

 

This way you will become the expert on your own withdrawal process and you'll be able to tailor it to your own needs and your own life changes."

 

"In order to get my head around the prospects of a really slow taper I have to work through what it represents to me, the things I say to myself that encourage me to go faster. I know that I have more trouble with the holds than the increments. I think I view the hold as disempowering, as an expression of me 'needing' the medication, that I am beholden to it, its dictating the terms. This isnt a very positive relationship to the hold! Rather than a barrier to being off, I need to see it as an important strategy to success and a choice I am making. I also think that not holding long enough hasn't enabled me to have the 'good spells' and the rest I need to recover and keep going, so, being really tired, I've then wanted to speed things up, to get to the other side. My experience tells me to listen to my body and that getting my head around it is important."

 

"What does stabilizing mean after withdrawal syndrome has kicked in?

 

To me, it means not being debilitated by your withdrawals, so that activities of daily life are disrupted.

Holding your dose and monitoring it (a journal is a good idea) and your instincts will tell you when you feel strong enough."

 

"Most people are stable on psychotropic medications before their first taper, so there are no withdrawal symptoms. Holding helps to stabilize withdrawal symptoms that are acquired while tapering, going off CT, etc. The meaning of stabilization does not change with the drug. (And the steadier the dose in your system, the more stable you will be and so there are no resulting withdrawal symptoms) Withdrawal symptoms include those which are 'physical' as well as neuroemotions, the latter experienced as emotional while they are actually physical in origin. When withdrawal symptoms subside, your quality of life is better as your ability to cope with the daily demands of living improves.

 

So stable means few or no withdrawal symptoms, whether physical or emotional. The concept of stabilization does not refer to lifestyle issues, though those are obviously impacted when people feel unwell. Most people stabilize when they hold (sometimes for as long as several months), and if symptoms do not entirely remit during that time, they become more manageable."

 

"I'm doing a micro taper and I adjust my cuts and holds according to life stressors and how I'm feeling. Seems like I generally feel the cuts within two to four days after making them, and then I hold for however long it takes (usually a week or two, with the micro cuts). I definitely do stabilize and feel better, although if I know I have a period of time with not much stress coming up, I will push it and make a couple more small cuts before I'm fully at my best. I know I'm going to feel crappy for a while as a result but I know I will hold and it will pass."

 

"When I hold for a longer period I am always rewarded with a spell of feeling pretty good, which lasts even after I start cutting again, for a while.

 

I have always felt better after holds and I have never done well with the "keep cutting even if you're suffering" approach, although some people apparently do okay with that. As always, our own bodies are the experts."

 

" I can only speak for myself. If i held, i know what would happen. If i made a mistake cutting, then all bets are off. I think people are just afraid of making a mistake and then getting the hammer for it. Recovering from a devastating mistake can be terrifying."

 

"I have had to make 3 months holds, or even longer, before I could make some progress again. a few weeks may be too little? be patient."

 

"I had heard about "holding" but I only did it for 3 or 4 or 5 months and then dropped again because I didn't think it worked.  However, I now believe IT DOES WORK - I JUST NEEDED TO HOLD LONGER!  The first 6 month hold I did I saw improvement in many symptoms, however about half a dozen got worse, so I dropped.

 

The next 6 month hold on a lower dose and a slower taper, saw improvement in all symptoms (to mild) with some EVEN GOING AWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 5 YEARS!  I felt almost normal for the first time in I don't now how long, it was amazing.  I had some good days and I even went shopping for the first time in 5 years!

 

This was AN AMAZING REVELATION to me because with the next drop, they all got worse again.  This proved to me that all this is definitely w/d... can you believe I still sometimes wonder and doubt (plus other people seem to question it also).  I feel a real calm now about that aspect and somehow seeing that proof/evidence has helped me a lot!  I didn't know anything about holds, let alone long ones, but I do now."

 

"I held for 10 months at the bottom of my benzo taper with a good result.  I'm the hold queen, and firmly believe in erring on the side of holding too long. I think that tapering when we are symptomatic contributes to needless suffering.  I realize some people have paradoxical reactions from benzos, and need to taper in the face of WD symptoms, but they are far fewer than those who benefit from prolonged holds times... several months and more."

 

"A benzo cut can cause an uptick in your withdrawal symptoms, and it may take longer to stabilize once you take a  cut.  I once held for 9 months and this helped me considerably.  tapering slowly has taken time, but my quality of life was only adversely impacted for the first 2 or 3 months."

 

"1 month may seem like a long time but it's not. On the other hand 2 mg of Klonopin is a lot. When I see how fast people went it usually gives me an idea of how long it will take for them to stabilise. In my particular situation I waited for 4 months (with what I know today I would advise anyone in my situation even longer hold).

 

I believe in the healing power of long holds. When we are struggling even minute cuts will make us feel awful. But if we allow our brain to regrow itself through holding subsequent cuts will be less painful."

 

"If I were in your shoes I would actually say, hold not just until you don't feel so terrible any more, but hold until you start to have consistent periods of actually feeling good. It could take a few more months but I would wait as long as it takes. This far along it's not going to make you more dependent on the benzo or cause more damage than has already been caused. And if you treat your brain well and give it the stability and gentle care that it needs, at your age, it's going to bounce back beautifully. Even at my advanced age my brain is bouncing back--after 20 years on meds! So I feel pretty confident that right now it's more important to handle your precious brain gently and lovingly than it is to hurry.

 

It's not a delay--it's a strategic retreat and rebuild. If you get to where your nervous system is really stable and strong, that will give you a whole new base to taper from, and tapering will go much better. You'll have some minimal symptoms after each cut but you'll hold until those settle down. You'll be able to get on with your life even while tapering rather than trying to get through the taper so you can get back to your life, if that makes sense. This is a race that is won by the turtles every time, if "win" means "get off the meds forever and recover fully."

 

"Tolerance withdrawal" is a phrase that's tossed around a lot and usually, in my opinion, used wrongly. In fact most of the time I think it's referring to prolonged withdrawal symptoms. In fact I don't think you can really use the phrase "tolerance withdrawal" during a taper, because by definition tolerance withdrawal is something that happens when you're taking steady ongoing doses of a benzo.

 

However, Klonopin is kind of notorious for causing a kind of delayed withdrawal with holds that might be related to the tolerance withdrawal phenomenon."

 

"Yeah, the way "tolerance withdrawal' is bandied about on the benzo boards (try saying that five times really fast) drives me nuts. Especially since like you said, it's usually used to scare people into keeping cutting faster, which is almost always the opposite of what they need to be doing. VERY rarely is "just keep cutting" the right answer. Drives me nuts. Feels like I'm always the voice in the wilderness on that one. People go too fast, get into withdrawal, hold for a short time; their symptoms get worse (unrelated to the hold, it's just ongoing withdrawal from going too fast before); they get told they're in "tolerance withdrawal" and they need to start cutting again. Yet when someone CTs and has prolonged withdrawal for months or years, nobody says it's "tolerance withdrawal", because obviously that's impossible if you aren't taking the drug. What's called tolerance withdrawal is almost always just plain delayed withdrawal symptoms which are pretty much universal with benzos. Benzos are notoriously up and down and nonlinear and long and drawn out, in withdrawal. Okay, thanks for letting me rant about that. The whole thing drives me nuts (she says for the third time). "

 

"Been 10 days since I began stabilizing, so knock on wood, it seems I have for the most part, won this round by holding, as almost all symptoms across the board have dissipated by 85-90%, even the most minor (tinnitus).

Thanks to all who encouraged me to hold out and resist the temptation to further updosing (or going with my doc's advice, albeit well-intentioned) as I was right on the verge of doing so out of desperation to seek relief.

 

Withdrawal is indeed real and until you go through it long enough and then stabilize in time, even the smartest minds, physicians included, can be misled by the insidious nature of w/d into making the wrong assumptions as to causation, suggesting a course of treatment that fits a generalized paradigm, but that usually runs counter to our individual genetics and neurochemistry, especially in those whose receptors have become sensitized to any degree from past repeated "insults" to the CNS (maybe not as acute to suggest a case of kindling, but similar). Hello, medical mismanagement!

 

Bottom line: patience and giving time to listen to what our body is telling us. The clue: if you're having windows of any length, is this not a good indicator of your body trying to HEAL? So, I powered through the downtime and let it heal. The more acute the symptoms, the more sensitized the receptors, thus more time required to cool the hyper-excitatory response to discontinuance of a med or meds from which the brain has become habituated.

 

Well, I hope others can benefit from my little experience in giving them hope as well. Now I know how to read this better in the future, as each setback is like a little science experiment and an educational course from which to listen and learn, downright frightening, horrid and unpleasant as they may be. "

 

"The symptoms this last month have been anything but linear - a total rollercoaster, with some hours during the days better than others, and some worse - as this has progressed - and I realize this is part of the process. There is a ramp up period, followed by a small reprieve in symptoms, then it's starts to ramp up again, a perpetual ebb and flow day in, day out. So it's been impossible to judge the progression. In fact, the last few days, I feel like my symptoms are up a notch in severity which feeds into my fears and reinforces my doc's position that unless we "get the symptoms back under control" by updosing, my condition will worsen.

 

I do now agree looking back that the although the cuts were small, the frequency was likely too fast and lag time came on like a freight train. I can see my doc shaking his head in disbelief at all that, but like you said, what can we expect?"

 

"It takes as long as it takes.

 

Also, one thing I've noticed with benzo tapering, is that when I'm going a bit too fast I tend to get into this "rush rush hurry go faster get off this stuff" frame of mind, which tends to cause me to actually cut even faster. I've posted about this here and there and found other people are having the same thing. Something about the anxiety, the way the withdrawal activates our limbic system, something like that, seems to cause us to feel a kind of urgency that actually makes us do the opposite of what we need to do at that point.

 

So now, when I get that "hurry up and taper fast" feeling, I try to remember to stop and think about it, and make myself slow down or hold for a while if I can.

 

Also want to reiterate, because it needs saying all the time and not too many people are saying it:  Even a microtaper requires intermittent holds with no reductions, no cuts at all, for a while."

 

"Better to err on this side of safety. In reading thousands of posts, I never heard of anyone who suffered for holding too much/long, only for too little."

 

"There's some mild weirdness going on in my head and legs, which I'm taking as a sign that there's still some instability going on. I've heard people claim you CAN hold for too long, but I don't really believe that. I mean, we've been "holding" on these drugs for years and, apart from the usual side effects, nothing awful happened because of it.."

 

" Your CNS is very sensitive to these drugs.  Please listen to your body..  Do not taper until all or most of your symptoms have resolved.  If I were in your position.. knowing what I do now, I'd plan on holding for 6 months, then starting to taper at 5% a month.  If you are okay with that pace for 2 months, you could then try going to 10% a month.

 

As long as you are having withdrawal symptoms, your body is acting as it still has the drug.  So it's possible to actually get the drug out of your system sooner, but have your body reacting to it longer.. so, your body ends up responding to the drug longer than if you came off gradually and preserved your quality of life.

 

PS.. if you have a 'window'.. a sustained period of time that lasts, say 2 months, you could think about tapering.. but if you think in terms of say, 6 months, you might do better by removing a constant temptation."

 

"While I understand the desire to get off these drugs fast, I don't think there's enough discussion of the possible benefits of an extremely SLOW taper.

 

And how many stories do we all hear, of people who've tried over and over again to get off meds, and have to reinstate, but have never tried an extremely slow taper with long holds? In the long run so many people spend years trying to get off the meds, suffer, are disabled much of that time, end up hospitalized, et cetera, and in the end they don't save any time at all."

 

"I wanted to say that I've been going through this and can see it in my journal as I track my days of symptom severity and klonopin use to offset symptoms (Might not be recommended but I'd be dead without it). I've been through this cycle so many times, and I have a theory that it's a healing process where our body is adapting and adjusting to not having the meds and that's where the pain or worse hellish days come into play, and then we feel better for a bit until our body has found a new way to heal and recover which triggers the pain/suffering cycle again.

 

I think of it as our body trying to find its way back home to how it should be after being nearly totally altered by these meds. On a bad day or a bad few days I think I try to remind myself that this is my body adapting and healing and it will find its way. Those better days are proof that it has though for some it takes a while to get to them and they may only last a short bit.

 

I remember reading something a while ago about how the body knows how to heal itself from just about anything. But often we interfere with that or things interfere with it (things like stress or other meds or other health issues that compound one another). I like the idea of trusting in my body and believing that it knows how to find its way back to its wellness.

 

Bad days are awful but if they mean my body is going through some kind of adaption as it heals, I feel they are worth enduring. Like when you are tired and just want to go home, traffic and bad weather slow you down and can frustrate you endlessly because you JUST WANT TO BE HOME, but those things pass. They are temporary and you will get home eventually. So accepting the traffic and bad weather as par for the course makes the journey home a whole lot better and easier on you emotionally and stress wise. simple analogy that is weak compared to what we deal with during these cycles, but at its essence it holds the truth of what is happening. Storms and delays when we just want to be home (be well again). "

 

"If you are tapering too fast (and I would add moving doses around, crossing over to another benzo, etc.) and get withdrawal symptoms, they may fluctuate in a windows and waves pattern. This leads a lot of people to ignore the warning signs of going too fast (or tapering while unstable). If you continue to taper, withdrawal symptoms probably will get worse. It's the nature of withdrawal symptoms to fluctuate, because the nervous system is trying to correct itself. "

 

"For many reasons, our emotions are on a hair-trigger, amplified, and perseverative. We probably don't even know all of what's going on physically yet, but it includes diminished prefrontal lobe executive functions, rebound amygdala, dysregulated HPA, over-active adrenals, etc. The neuro-emotions include -- neuro-fear neuro-anger neuro-guilt neuro-shame neuro-hurt neuro-regret neuro-self-criticism neuro-grudge-holding ...and more! It is very, very confusing to have these intense neuro-emotions and try to remember that they are not what they appear to be. Emotions are compelling. Emotions during recovery from psych meds are even more compelling. Sometimes, the neuro-emotion is really totally artificial. Some of my neuro-fears have been so unlikely to come to pass as to bear no resemblance to reality or to my personal history. But, I think a lot of the time, part of what makes it so confusing is that there is a grain of reality to the neuro-emotion. For example, some situation might make you a bit angry under normal circumstances, but the neuro-anger is huge. This is when it's very difficult to 1) catch it in the first place and notice this is a neuro-emotion, 2) convince ourselves, yes, this is really a neuro-emotion, not a real emotion, 3) contain the emotion, try not to act on it, or channel the energy into something safe and constructive -- like exercise or journaling or building a birdhouse.  Whenever you're having an intense, disturbing feeling, try to remind yourself that, right now -- even if it does have something to do with reality -- it is largely a neuro-emotion that you wouldn't be feeling if you were fully healed. And you *will* be fully healed. It's happening! Get ready! "

 

"After a severe CT it took me about six months to get to feeling stable again. I've seen this in dozens of people.  It's not at all uncommon, especially after a CT or a series of ups and downs in dosage or a series of changes of meds, to take many months to stabilize; sometimes a year or more.

 

Seems like everyone does get better eventually, though. I know there must be rare exceptions, but from what I've seen they're extremely rare.

 

Anyway, months instead of weeks is a common variation.

 

It does require more patience but it's not a sign of a bad outcome. Many people have gone through spells like this, stabilized, and then gone on to do slow tapers quite successfully. "

 

"People heal at different rates. In 6 months, you might find you're much better. "

 

""Healing from withdrawal feels like not healing at all and being certain that I'm going to be like this for the rest of my life and wondering if I'm going to have the strength to endure it.  But then finding myself driving in my car, completely relaxed, not worried about anything, remembering how at first, driving anywhere caused a continual state of panic until I got back home. I would put things off for days if I could, just so I could avoid the added stress.  Now, there is some residual fear associated with driving, caused by the memory of actually having to do it in such an intense state of fear, but once I get in the car, I relax.  It wasn't driving which caused the fear, the fear was there anyway.  A secondary fear was created out of the horrendous experience of having to drive around while being in a state of panic, I don't recommend it.

 

Healing is like feeling really awful and believing that its just getting worse and worse, until I think back carefully or read back through my thread or journal and see the truth about just how bad it was, compared to now.  It only seems like its getting worse.  Maybe its because its been going on so long, its wearing me down and wearing me out.

 

Healing is like walking backwards somewhere with your eyes closed.  You have no idea where you are heading, and you don't know where you have been until you get somewhere else and open your eyes for a few moments and look back towards where you came from.  Then you close them again and keep going.

 

Sometimes healing feels like I am standing still while the rest of the world races by, leaving me behind, and I panic.  But then I calm down and notice that no one is going anywhere.  Everyone else is racing around and around in circles and I'm sitting calmly and peacefully in the center, knowing that everything I need is right here."

 

"Don't think that holding is "doing nothing." Far from it. When it's needed, it's needed to free your body to do the healing it knows how to do... if we don't interfere! Tapering is necessary to get off the med, but the real recovery comes from complex healing the body does, and the real healing comes from what the body does to heal, which we don't fully understand. Sometimes a small updose steadies the body out and supports healing, sometimes it doesn't. You learned that in your case it doesn't. But healing processes from anything can be "painful" and we can't see the healing for a while - but that doesn't mean we aren't healing!"

 

"Things get less and less wobbly the longer I hold. So that when I cut again, the system I'm re-perturbing is a stable and strong one that's going to be able to handle and adapt to the new perturbations. I think what I see happen to people a lot is, they cut and then they hold for a while, just long enough to allow the worst of it to pass, then they cut again, et cetera, but after a few of those they hit a wall.

 

I'm beginning to think--for me, at least--it's really crucial not to just hold long enough to be able to function, but to hold, at least intermittently, long enough to allow a stable homeostasis to be established, to give the body/mind a chance to attend to some deeper healing."

 

"Not only is it okay to hold for six months, it would be good for you at this point, to give your nervous system time to recover from what it's been through. You can definitely taper down when ready, it's just going to take a lot longer than you had expected. These drugs are NOT the innocent benign wonderful things we were told they are."

 

"I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

 

"When people exceed their nervous system's ability to keep up, they get destablized and then must sometimes updose and  hold for a few months or more before resuming, and when all is said and done, their taper takes longer than if they had just gone ahead and done the proper taper to begin with!  Throw away the calendar and focus on living your life.  Always listen to your body.  You'll always be taking less and less, which is better than still being on the full dosage from where you came, so it's all good, right?"

 

"Holding makes sense to me. I can't imagine tapering through this. I don't think it is wise to cut through intolerable symptoms."

 

"I will hold until I feel able to reduce a small amount. Every tiny cut feels like a cold turkey and reminds me how I felt during the botched crossover."

 

"Then I think you are on track to keep holding for the time being.  I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

 

" I would hold until your symptoms reduce, then hold for a good four weeks after (or more), given how long you've been tapering and how high a dose you started at, just to make sure your nervous system (central and enteric) really has a chance to stabilize."

 

" I tapered too fast and hit the wall. I ended up having to hold for months before I stabilized. I was feeling so crummy I didn't feel like I would ever stabilize, but things eventually settled down.

I know how hopeless you feel right now. The best thing you can do is hold tight, don't mess with your dose and wait until things settle down."

 

[[no...]]

Hello all. Hope everyone is doing well today. I am still really hurting. I was feeling pretty well last week and this week has been getting progressively worse. Cant eat, cant sleep, cant stop crying, hurt everywhere.  Just really in a bad place.  Constant fear of losing my job and not being able to go on vacation Sunday.  Feel like im letting everyone down.  The guilt of not being able to take care of my responsibilities is the worst.  Basically ruined my taper updosing back to my original dose trying to get well and it seemed to help for a short time now i am back to this.  It is just so hard to imagine ever getting over this.  I am praying that if i just hold on for a little longer i will start to feel well again, but honestly i am finding it difficult to keep hopeful. Has anybody here experienced anything like this?  Sometimes i think my case is too severe to be fixed.

 

Much love

BJ

Here is another excellent thread to read, heres the opening post below but click on the link to read the whole thread is one of the best ones on BB to read when your heads telling you your going to be the exception the will never heal 

 

 

 

Love Nova xxx  :smitten:

 

Benzo Lies That Have Been Busted

 

 

   

 

Benzo Lies

 

I was talking with a friend about the lies that benzos tell us and thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on the topic.

 

Here are some benzo lies that I previously posted on my blog and thought it would be good to start this thread off with.

 

Please add some of the lies that you used to believe and now know to be untrue.

 

This will be very valuable for those who are still under the spell of the lies that benzos tell us. My experience is that our thinking is fundamentally altered by benzo action during tolerance withdrawal and during tapering, and that we are not actually thinking – we are at the effect of chemical storms in our brains. And we think that these are our thoughts. And worse yet, we BELIEVE these thoughts. But what we are experiencing is chemical and electrical processes that occur during the body’s attempt to adjust these chemicals and processes on the fly.

 

 

Now that I am feeling better, it’s easy to see some of the lies the benzos tell us. They are plain to see in hindsight. But for those of you who are having troubles with taper symptoms, or pre or post-taper symptoms, I wanted to help you to see  some of the lies that the benzos have told me, and may be telling you too.  Hopefully, you will be able to use this to understand more about your experience and maybe you could use this post as a template for reality.

 

Benzo Lie # 1. There is no hope.  This one is nasty. Do not believe this lie. It can take you down fast. It is not true, even though it feels very true. For me, this hopelessness was a result of benzo created chemical imbalances coloring my thinking into a perceived end of time. I could not imagine time extending for more than 3 months into the future. There was no way I could think of any possible outcome at all – not even a negative one, and all of my imagined outcomes of less than 3 months were negative. If you cannot imagine a positive future for yourself, know you are under the trance of lie # 1.

 

Benzo Lie # 2. My Life is ruined.  Do not believe this lie. You are in a temporary state of withdrawal. It is an awful state, but it is temporary and you will move out of it and have a life that you can mold into what you had before or one that is better than before. When you can think clearly, you are able to fashion a life that is better than what happened to you when you were tranquilized and your life fell apart as a result of being drugged. When you are out of withdrawals and free from the effects of their symptoms, you will be in a better position to solve problems instead of having them take you down.

 

Benzo Lie # 3. These benzo effects will last forever.  I see this lie as being conditional.  The lie part is that if you are making decisions that will move yourself toward health and away from benzos, it will not last forever. There WILL be an end to the benzo-related troubles. As you get further away from benzos and their effects, the less the benzos will act on you.  If you make benzo related decisions that move yourself away from natural health and into benzo use, you may end up in a never ending loop of having side effects being confused as diseases, and having benzo symptoms being medicated with more benzos, and in turn, more and more drug and symptom interactions and more and more suffering.

 

Benzo Lie # 4. I will never be happy again  This lie broke my heart. I let this lie rob me of my dreams. I am living proof that you can totally believe this lie and live to prove it wrong. I never thought I could ever be happy ever again. I’m not only happy now, but happier than I was before I started on benzos. I feel like I have just vanquished a dragon, and there is a great deal of satisfaction in that. Now, I am happy. I am happy just because I exist and because life is available to me. There is such joy in coming back from the edge and being able to function again.

 

I felt like there was no way happiness could ever be attained by someone who is going through all of this suffering and torture and ineptitude, and now I’m happy.  I am the guy that was scared to death of my cat for 2 years. I was freaked out because the gardener was going to come on Wednesday and scare me with the noise of his equipment and today it’s Monday and I’m worried about it already. I couldn't drive for over a year. . . and on and on.

 

If you are feeling that your happiness is behind you, do not despair. You cannot absolutely know that your best days are behind you. The effects of benzo action will make you believe you cannot be happy. It is not true. After your body begins making the feel good chemicals and you are out of wd, your life can get wonderful again.

 

 

These are just a few of the benzo lies that have I have busted for myself. And there are many, many more.

 

Try this on - If it makes you sad, it's probably a benzo lie.

 

You CAN be happy again. It will feel great, and you’ll love it more than ever. 

 

 

Please post the benzo lies that you have busted so others can learn from your experience.

 

  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=87594.0

[[be...]]

Thanks [glow=red,2,300]"SIST'A"[/glow] for your ongoing support to all of us here at BB, I know I have a Friend for Life. I know things are hard for you, so I will carry you in my Heart today to get you some nice rest and no loud music and noise, you deserve so much Nova. Rest and Recoup. :smitten: