The Long Hold Support Group

[[Va...]]

V- or anyone who knows.... Not asking for medical advice just experiences.... My doctor knows about this but in my cog fog forgot to ask him this question and of course things appear normal when I'm there except for my rapid pulse when it comes to my heart..... Ugh

 

I've been holding about 20 days now and have been wondering if anyone had this... I've been noticing a pattern that comes and goes....

 

morning rapid pulse heart beating out of chest for no reason feels like its going to come thru my chest.....brief and intermittent.  Pulse almost 150

 

slightly again at noon

 

And again between 2:30 and 3:00 pm - bp 128/109 don't even know if this is high bp or not ... Heart racing like it wants to come out of chest lasts between 5 and 10 minutes .. Like I just ran 10 blocks...

 

is this what people mean by cortisol and adrenaline surges?

 

The point being it happens at certain points of the day.....what a merry go round this is if its not one thing its another! I'm so sick of this......

 

I think its be good who has this on her signature.... Patience and breathe...

Please my BP was so high at all my visits to the doctor, they would make me sit until it came down before I could leave. I knew it was benzo withdrawal and it has gone back down to normal but did take a few months.  --V

 

V - thank you....do you know if sour milk can effect efficacy of pills..... I didn't realize the milk was sour and was drinking it for a few days with my pills in it.... I've been nauseous and heaving... The bottle had the expiration date for 2 more days out and I didn't put it together until today....

 

I had a severe symptom increase later this evening again and wonder if this had something to do with it too... All my muscles seized and tightened so hard on the left side of my body....from my head eyes and face and chest with severe vibrating.... my diaphragm constricted so much i couldn't breathe...dizziness...

 

These are some of my older symptoms that I thought were getting better but came back tonite with a vengence.... Really scared because I don't know what to expect .....

I'm not sure about the milk Please but can see why it may cause an increase in sxs. Sour milk alone would make most of us feel ill. As far as your current sxs, try to relax and accept the process. You should start gradually feeling better as the symptoms start to lessen in intensity. I found they would lessen and then suddenly increase for no reason until they finally pretty much subsided altogether. Hope you get some relief real soon! I really do know how nasty it can be.  --V

[[Pl...]]

V- or anyone who knows.... Not asking for medical advice just experiences.... My doctor knows about this but in my cog fog forgot to ask him this question and of course things appear normal when I'm there except for my rapid pulse when it comes to my heart..... Ugh

 

I've been holding about 20 days now and have been wondering if anyone had this... I've been noticing a pattern that comes and goes....

 

morning rapid pulse heart beating out of chest for no reason feels like its going to come thru my chest.....brief and intermittent.  Pulse almost 150

 

slightly again at noon

 

And again between 2:30 and 3:00 pm - bp 128/109 don't even know if this is high bp or not ... Heart racing like it wants to come out of chest lasts between 5 and 10 minutes .. Like I just ran 10 blocks...

 

is this what people mean by cortisol and adrenaline surges?

 

The point being it happens at certain points of the day.....what a merry go round this is if its not one thing its another! I'm so sick of this......

 

I think its be good who has this on her signature.... Patience and breathe...

Please my BP was so high at all my visits to the doctor, they would make me sit until it came down before I could leave. I knew it was benzo withdrawal and it has gone back down to normal but did take a few months.  --V

 

V - thank you....do you know if sour milk can effect efficacy of pills..... I didn't realize the milk was sour and was drinking it for a few days with my pills in it.... I've been nauseous and heaving... The bottle had the expiration date for 2 more days out and I didn't put it together until today....

 

I had a severe symptom increase later this evening again and wonder if this had something to do with it too... All my muscles seized and tightened so hard on the left side of my body....from my head eyes and face and chest with severe vibrating.... my diaphragm constricted so much i couldn't breathe...dizziness...

 

These are some of my older symptoms that I thought were getting better but came back tonite with a vengence.... Really scared because I don't know what to expect .....

I'm not sure about the milk Please but can see why it may cause an increase in sxs. Sour milk alone would make most of us feel ill. As far as your current sxs, try to relax and accept the process. You should start gradually feeling better as the symptoms start to lessen in intensity. I found they would lessen and then suddenly increase for no reason until they finally pretty much subsided altogether. Hope you get some relief real soon! I really do know how nasty it can be.  --V

Bless you....

[[...]]

Hello everyone.... Day 11 since my last tiny tiny .001 gm cut V on my scale. Now I have resigned not to rush I feel better about holding , things are still rough. I don't leave the house much

I guess Im going to hold and trust that it will get better, I do know it's not doing my nervous system any good to keep cutting even a tiny amount right now. So that's the deciding factor . Hope it doesn't take too long , keep having to adjust my expectations as I know you all must be familiar with...

I have an easy easy to answer question , what is ones ' baseline '?   

 

Thanks for being here 

[[Va...]]

Hello everyone.... Day 11 since my last tiny tiny .001 gm cut V on my scale. Now I have resigned not to rush I feel better about holding , things are still rough. I don't leave the house much

I guess Im going to hold and trust that it will get better, I do know it's not doing my nervous system any good to keep cutting even a tiny amount right now. So that's the deciding factor . Hope it doesn't take too long , keep having to adjust my expectations as I know you all must be familiar with...

I have an easy easy to answer question , what is ones ' baseline '?   

 

Thanks for being here 

Hi Miyu. My baseline is close to or completely symptom free but know it varies with each person.  --V

[[ga...]]

Thanks Anne and V. I'm not reducing the Librium. I think I will try reducing the Q 1ml every other day and see how that feels. I don't think I dare try faster.

 

I am just trying to see how low I can go and still sleep.

 

Gard

[[He...]]

Please, I would just start drinking a glass of OJ and a peanut butter sandwich each night, it isn't going to hurt, it is natural foods, and I think Nova wrote about these surges and honestly it makes sense to eat something before they occur, 3am seems to be the hour the liver is doing its thing and I think it has something to do not having enough sugar, in your blood, I just do not know, Valley knows these things I think, or he has ways of finding out.

Cortisol is usually highest in the morning and causes us to wake up normally. During benzo withdrawal, it seems to make symptoms worse. It spikes again in the early afternoon so you may not feel that great until evening. I believe that's why evening windows are so prevalent. I do know that benzo withdrawal has a big impact on the adrenal system so keeping blood sugar stable, gentle exercise, good nutrition, etc. are what we have to do to help our bodies weather the storm.  --V

 

V- this is exactly what is happening to me .... It always revs up at those two points more or less and evenings are always better ..... I was considering taking a supplement for the surges but I'm so darned scared....

 

Wow! That describes me exactly! I wake up in the morning sometimes with a rush of adrenalin and heart palpitations. They disappear in about a half hour. And my afternoons seem to be the time when sfx get worse, only to have a window at about 8:00 .

So it's the CORTISOL?  Nice to know that at least my Sfx are following a pattern that seems to be more or less normal among us  withdrawalers

[[Pl...]]

Everyone... I was taken by ambulance to er... Was having stroke like symptoms and much more...

 

The dr. Confirmed benzo withdrawal.... The paramedic even said he's seen this from benzos before...I couldn't believe it because everyone denies it .... These are one of the first people that validated me...

 

Everything came back normal.... I didn't have a cat scan again as I just had one a year ago with the same exact symptoms...,

 

Somebody actually believed me!!!!!!! Once he heard benzos he just knew... He said he's seen this so many times and he said how its destroyed people's lives...  He said he will never write out scripts for benzos...

 

he said he could not help me,... That i have to go thru it...But gave me the name of 2 other doctors that I believe specialize in this horror...... The only way is to get off the drug...which is what I'm trying to do but not successful with escalating symptoms....

 

I'm doing something wrong and desperately trying to troubleshoot to save my life....

 

Please know whatever I do I present to my doctors so they always know and discuss with them first if its a major change or step...

 

I'm sorry if I sound frantic its because I am.... I am terrified.... I pray I can get stable somehow... I posted on another thread about how many times I dose and I think this all needs to change....

 

I will be calling the doctors to see how they can help.... My primary doesn't believe its benzos...

 

I'm just worried I developed a condition from this  neurologically...

 

I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for your support because I couldn't do it without you all...

 

 

 

 

[[Pl...]]

Please, I would just start drinking a glass of OJ and a peanut butter sandwich each night, it isn't going to hurt, it is natural foods, and I think Nova wrote about these surges and honestly it makes sense to eat something before they occur, 3am seems to be the hour the liver is doing its thing and I think it has something to do not having enough sugar, in your blood, I just do not know, Valley knows these things I think, or he has ways of finding out.

Cortisol is usually highest in the morning and causes us to wake up normally. During benzo withdrawal, it seems to make symptoms worse. It spikes again in the early afternoon so you may not feel that great until evening. I believe that's why evening windows are so prevalent. I do know that benzo withdrawal has a big impact on the adrenal system so keeping blood sugar stable, gentle exercise, good nutrition, etc. are what we have to do to help our bodies weather the storm.  --V

 

V- this is exactly what is happening to me .... It always revs up at those two points more or less and evenings are always better ..... I was considering taking a supplement for the surges but I'm so darned scared....

 

Wow! That describes me exactly! I wake up in the morning sometimes with a rush of adrenalin and heart palpitations. They disappear in about a half hour. And my afternoons seem to be the time when sfx get worse, only to have a window at about 8:00 .

So it's the CORTISOL?  Nice to know that at least my Sfx are following a pattern that seems to be more or less normal among us  withdrawalers

 

Heathcliff makes me feel better knowing someone else has this too..(((.    )))). Not that I would ever want you too.....I'm sorry for what you are experiencing.....

[[Va...]]

Everyone... I was taken by ambulance to er... Was having stroke like symptoms and much more...

 

The dr. Confirmed benzo withdrawal.... The paramedic even said he's seen this from benzos before...I couldn't believe it because everyone denies it .... These are one of the first people that validated me...

 

Everything came back normal.... I didn't have a cat scan again as I just had one a year ago with the same exact symptoms...,

 

Somebody actually believed me!!!!!!! Once he heard benzos he just knew... He said he's seen this so many times and he said how its destroyed people's lives...  He said he will never write out scripts for benzos...

 

he said he could not help me,... That i have to go thru it...But gave me the name of 2 other doctors that I believe specialize in this horror...... The only way is to get off the drug...which is what I'm trying to do but not successful with escalating symptoms....

 

I'm doing something wrong and desperately trying to troubleshoot to save my life....

 

Please know whatever I do I present to my doctors so they always know and discuss with them first if its a major change or step...

 

I'm sorry if I sound frantic its because I am.... I am terrified.... I pray I can get stable somehow... I posted on another thread about how many times I dose and I think this all needs to change....

 

I will be calling the doctors to see how they can help.... My primary doesn't believe its benzos...

 

I'm just worried I developed a condition from this  neurologically...

 

I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for your support because I couldn't do it without you all...

So glad someone validated withdrawal sxs for you Please!  Now have your doctor contact them and get informed on the hell of benzo withdrawal. Hope it all works out! --V

[[Pl...]]

Kgirl I thought you suggested to me not to updose the K but to just get moving with the taper. I have no idea if my sxs are all side effects but I'm going from four doses to three a day starting today, hoping it won't make things worse and then resuming my MT

 

Liza I was at the er today and my doctor confirmed benzo diagnosis and said alot of the things I am experiencing is due to withdrawal and also they have terrible side effects and he thinks my symptoms are combined with that,.. i believe you may be experiencing  this as well...,

[[He...]]

Hi everyone, I just want to weigh in on a recent hold. Been reading this thread but it's very long so I'm doing it bit by bit. I think I posted here one time before. On the theory of long holds, which was discussed extensively earlier on, I agree that we all should hold as long as we feel we need, whenever we need. Whether doing a cut or a mt. There is so much history from people who c/t'd or cut too fast and were left with major Sx for months.

 

It's in my sig. But I tried the Ashton and found it was too fast for me. I went through the whole process of finding out what is best in order to have some quality of life for me during this process. At first I was just clawing to be functional enough to work my p/t job. The long and short of it is, slow seems to be best. Anyone who is willing to go through hell for months is welcome to a fast taper or c/t with or without a "Treatment center". And I say that with great irony because I am a substance abuse counselor and except for benzo's and the Rx shit they're giving to opiate addicts nowadays, treatment is a fabulous thing. Benzos are different. I even was mesmerized for about 1 hour by lying doctors and a colleague to try c/t Tx. Whew, got out of that.

 

Anyway, to the point. I'd been on my mt for about a little over a month, all was going so well. Then I simply overdid it last week. Stressful things, both good and bad. Also forgot .5 mg V in my pills one night. It all added up and I was sick by Saturday. Anxious, nauseated, agoraphobic, unable to focus well, etc. So I held my taper. Got slowly better.

 

Here's the key for me, though: I had stopped drinking my fresh veg juice daily. Once I got back to that, I improved much faster. The fresh juice (carrot, beet, celery) has been incredible for me. I have to have at least 1 glass daily. I've been studying the blood type diet and the more I read the more I see that a lot of Sx may be due to what we eat (or don't). Especially things like bloating, migraine and nausea. The trick is, you have to find out what's right for your type. And just like this thread, what others tell you is healthy is not necessarily right for you. (I would make my own thread on this but instead I just slip in a bit about it here and there). People are very hesitant to change their diets.

 

End of story: I resumed my mt last night but by half. Will continue to watch. And plan more carefully. It's so nice to feel so good again, want to do it all. No more crashing on that. Aloha, HM

[[Va...]]

Hi everyone, I just want to weigh in on a recent hold. Been reading this thread but it's very long so I'm doing it bit by bit. I think I posted here one time before. On the theory of long holds, which was discussed extensively earlier on, I agree that we all should hold as long as we feel we need, whenever we need. Whether doing a cut or a mt. There is so much history from people who c/t'd or cut too fast and were left with major Sx for months.

 

It's in my sig. But I tried the Ashton and found it was too fast for me. I went through the whole process of finding out what is best in order to have some quality of life for me during this process. At first I was just clawing to be functional enough to work my p/t job. The long and short of it is, slow seems to be best. Anyone who is willing to go through hell for months is welcome to a fast taper or c/t with or without a "Treatment center". And I say that with great irony because I am a substance abuse counselor and except for benzo's and the Rx shit they're giving to opiate addicts nowadays, treatment is a fabulous thing. Benzos are different. I even was mesmerized for about 1 hour by lying doctors and a colleague to try c/t Tx. Whew, got out of that.

 

Anyway, to the point. I'd been on my mt for about a little over a month, all was going so well. Then I simply overdid it last week. Stressful things, both good and bad. Also forgot .5 mg V in my pills one night. It all added up and I was sick by Saturday. Anxious, nauseated, agoraphobic, unable to focus well, etc. So I held my taper. Got slowly better.

 

Here's the key for me, though: I had stopped drinking my fresh veg juice daily. Once I got back to that, I improved much faster. The fresh juice (carrot, beet, celery) has been incredible for me. I have to have at least 1 glass daily. I've been studying the blood type diet and the more I read the more I see that a lot of Sx may be due to what we eat (or don't). Especially things like bloating, migraine and nausea. The trick is, you have to find out what's right for your type. And just like this thread, what others tell you is healthy is not necessarily right for you. (I would make my own thread on this but instead I just slip in a bit about it here and there). People are very hesitant to change their diets.

 

End of story: I resumed my mt last night but by half. Will continue to watch. And plan more carefully. It's so nice to feel so good again, want to do it all. No more crashing on that. Aloha, HM

Thanks HM!  Good luck with your taper!  --V

[[Pl...]]

Everyone... I was taken by ambulance to er... Was having stroke like symptoms and much more...

 

The dr. Confirmed benzo withdrawal.... The paramedic even said he's seen this from benzos before...I couldn't believe it because everyone denies it .... These are one of the first people that validated me...

 

Everything came back normal.... I didn't have a cat scan again as I just had one a year ago with the same exact symptoms...,

 

Somebody actually believed me!!!!!!! Once he heard benzos he just knew... He said he's seen this so many times and he said how its destroyed people's lives...  He said he will never write out scripts for benzos...

 

he said he could not help me,... That i have to go thru it...But gave me the name of 2 other doctors that I believe specialize in this horror...... The only way is to get off the drug...which is what I'm trying to do but not successful with escalating symptoms....

 

I'm doing something wrong and desperately trying to troubleshoot to save my life....

 

Please know whatever I do I present to my doctors so they always know and discuss with them first if its a major change or step...

 

I'm sorry if I sound frantic its because I am.... I am terrified.... I pray I can get stable somehow... I posted on another thread about how many times I dose and I think this all needs to change....

 

I will be calling the doctors to see how they can help.... My primary doesn't believe its benzos...

 

I'm just worried I developed a condition from this  neurologically...

 

I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for your support because I couldn't do it without you all...

So glad someone validated withdrawal sxs for you Please!  Now have your doctor contact them and get informed on the hell of benzo withdrawal. Hope it all works out! --V

 

Thank you V... I called his office back right away and told his receptionist.... she said he would call me back...I want him to know how wrong he is....

[[...]]

Hello everyone.... Day 11 since my last tiny tiny .001 gm cut V on my scale. Now I have resigned not to rush I feel better about holding , things are still rough. I don't leave the house much

I guess Im going to hold and trust that it will get better, I do know it's not doing my nervous system any good to keep cutting even a tiny amount right now. So that's the deciding factor . Hope it doesn't take too long , keep having to adjust my expectations as I know you all must be familiar with...

I have an easy easy to answer question , what is ones ' baseline '?   

 

Thanks for being here 

Hi Miyu. My baseline is close to or completely symptom free but know it varies with each person.  --V

 

Thank you Valleyum.....don't think I've ever been symptom free in over a year , so I guess my baseline might be different .. Symptom free sounds so good!

[[Va...]]

Hello everyone.... Day 11 since my last tiny tiny .001 gm cut V on my scale. Now I have resigned not to rush I feel better about holding , things are still rough. I don't leave the house much

I guess Im going to hold and trust that it will get better, I do know it's not doing my nervous system any good to keep cutting even a tiny amount right now. So that's the deciding factor . Hope it doesn't take too long , keep having to adjust my expectations as I know you all must be familiar with...

I have an easy easy to answer question , what is ones ' baseline '?   

 

Thanks for being here 

Hi Miyu. My baseline is close to or completely symptom free but know it varies with each person.  --V

 

Thank you Valleyum.....don't think I've ever been symptom free in over a year , so I guess my baseline might be different .. Symptom free sounds so good!

I hope you find a rate that provides a very smooth taper Miyu. I was completely symptom free about a week after after each cut until I crashed hard and had to hold for 6 months. Now I just cut based on how I feel.  --V

[[Va...]]

Everyone... I was taken by ambulance to er... Was having stroke like symptoms and much more...

 

The dr. Confirmed benzo withdrawal.... The paramedic even said he's seen this from benzos before...I couldn't believe it because everyone denies it .... These are one of the first people that validated me...

 

Everything came back normal.... I didn't have a cat scan again as I just had one a year ago with the same exact symptoms...,

 

Somebody actually believed me!!!!!!! Once he heard benzos he just knew... He said he's seen this so many times and he said how its destroyed people's lives...  He said he will never write out scripts for benzos...

 

he said he could not help me,... That i have to go thru it...But gave me the name of 2 other doctors that I believe specialize in this horror...... The only way is to get off the drug...which is what I'm trying to do but not successful with escalating symptoms....

 

I'm doing something wrong and desperately trying to troubleshoot to save my life....

 

Please know whatever I do I present to my doctors so they always know and discuss with them first if its a major change or step...

 

I'm sorry if I sound frantic its because I am.... I am terrified.... I pray I can get stable somehow... I posted on another thread about how many times I dose and I think this all needs to change....

 

I will be calling the doctors to see how they can help.... My primary doesn't believe its benzos...

 

I'm just worried I developed a condition from this  neurologically...

 

I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for your support because I couldn't do it without you all...

So glad someone validated withdrawal sxs for you Please!  Now have your doctor contact them and get informed on the hell of benzo withdrawal. Hope it all works out! --V

 

Thank you V... I called his office back right away and told his receptionist.... she said he would call me back...I want him to know how wrong he is....

:thumbsup:

[[He...]]

Pleasebethere,

Omg I was so upset to hear that you had such bad Sfx that you wound up in the emergency room!

But I am glad you found a doctor who validated what you were going through and agreed with you. I can imagine how happy and overwhelmed you were to find a doctor who actually believed you.

How wonderful that he gave you the names of two docs that really can help you!

 

I hope you follow up really quickly and that these docs will help you enormously and very quickly.

 

For now, I hope you are felling somewhat better!

 

I wish you peace and healing and MORE COMFORTABLE DAYS AHEAD, QUICKLY!

 

Don't let this experience make you want to give up! Hang in there! You have proven that you are a WARRIOR!

 

Heathcliff :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:   (7 is my lucky number!

[[ly...]]

 

 

Please, it must be such a relief to know that it's wd and not some major health issue (not that wd isn't - but you know what I mean).  It's always best to get things checked out.  I hope this can help with the anxiety.

 

:smitten:   (3 is my lucky number)

[[He...]]

To everyone,

 

I think I saw a post by someone saying to stay away from the peanut butter.

 

Is peanut butter something that is ill advised during a taper of Benzos?

 

Because I love peanut butter!

 

Thanks,

 

Heathcliff

 

 

[[Ho...]]

To everyone,

 

I think I saw a post by someone saying to stay away from the peanut butter.

 

Is peanut butter something that is ill advised during a taper of Benzos?

 

Because I love peanut butter!

 

Thanks,

 

Heathcliff

 

I think the general rule of thumb for any food is if it bothers you don't eat it, and if it doesn't then it's OK. A lot of peanut butter has added sugar, maybe that's the perceived problem? I eat the natural organic brand from Costco and it doesn't bother me. I can eat raw peanuts just fine but raw almonds make me nauseous. Go figure.

[[ly...]]

 

Heath,

 

I stopped listening to all the "eat this, don't eat that, avoid..blah, blah, blah" very shortly after arriving at BB.  Forget wd, I'd of starved to death by now!  I survived on ice cream for weeks!  I'm sure that some people are sensitive to particular things.  I think you would know by a reaction after you consumed it.  The advocating of supplements is even more problematic.

 

I eat a lot of peanut butter!

[[Ho...]]

 

Heath,

 

I stopped listening to all the "eat this, don't eat that, avoid..blah, blah, blah" very shortly after arriving at BB.  Forget wd, I'd of starved to death by now!  I survived on ice cream for weeks!  I'm sure that some people are sensitive to particular things.  I think you would know by a reaction after you consumed it.  The advocating of supplements is even more problematic.

 

I eat a lot of peanut butter!

 

I'm with you Lynn. The food hysteria can get out of control. There have been points in my taper where I just ate what my stomach could handle. I can't tell anything really makes my withdrawal worse besides too much sugar makes my heart pound. And I don't dare touch alcohol and caffeine of course.

[[ly...]]

 

 

Hope, I agree that we have to eat what we can tolerate and what tastes good to us.  We should be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure out whether something causes a bad reaction.  I do drink caffeine (2 cups of coffee per day) and have throughout. On my worst days, and the not so bad, I always felt better after coffee.  I drink very little but do have a drink every once in a while (sometimes 2).  I haven't noticed an issue but I don't drink at all when sxs are bad.  It's probably not the best idea to drink any alcohol.  As to sugar, I had an intense craving for months and it actually made me feel better.  Who knows?

[[Ho...]]

 

 

Hope, I agree that we have to eat what we can tolerate and what tastes good to us.  We should be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure out whether something causes a bad reaction.  I do drink caffeine (2 cups of coffee per day) and have throughout. On my worst days, and the not so bad, I always felt better after coffee.  I drink very little but do have a drink every once in a while (sometimes 2).  I haven't noticed an issue but I don't drink at all when sxs are bad.  It's probably not the best idea to drink any alcohol.  As to sugar, I had an intense craving for months and it actually made me feel better.  Who knows?

 

You are so lucky you can drink coffee. I miss it! It just makes my heart pound more than it already does  one day I will drink it again.

[[Ce...]]

I know someone that used to drink Hot Chocolate and it made them feel better. I am Type 2 Diabetic, and I will be honest, our Brain needs good carbs to  feed our brain the glucose it needs, and when I am feeling that I am tanking with my BS, it feels the very same way I feel when I am having sx's, so I have to check my BS to make for sure, and then I eat what I must, I really think depriving our Brains of good things, I am not talking pure sugar out of the bowl, but ice cream and such it is because our Brain is craving it, hence we feel better, there is just too much restricting of everything, I am not trying to sound mean here, but if we wait long enough a thread will start that water will rev us, there is no way for sure, but restricting too much is going to make you sicker IMO.

 

 

Totally agreed! If we take everything away, we are going to feel punished and worse! LOL  about the water, but I get the point!