Klonopin taper?

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The Road Back book says you need to pretaper first. 

 

Can anyone tell me what a "pretaper" is? 

Ts

[[Ta...]]

Ts,

I guess they want you to get on certain supplements before you start actual tapering. Giving your body what they deem helpful and necessary for a taper. So,it's the time before the taper.

[[TP...]]

Feeling extremely nervous. This will be the final test for me. Am taking a fragment of klonopin now, trying to make me come back up to 1 mg that I was at. If I lose this nervousnes, then I know for sure, it was too big a taper. And I will know for sure that it is klonopin that is ruling my life. Am going to do that now.

 

INB

 

Would you care to share with us how much you have been tapering? 1 mg Klonopin is a HUGE amount. I've been tapering down from half of that since September. I did a crossover from 0.5 mg K to 10 mg Valium. I'm glad I did it as I believe I am suffering far less for it, and I can take a super slow taper which is so much easier on my CNS.

 

As for the benzo ruling your life, if you taper too fast you are asking for trouble in my opinion. You can control the rate of your taper and affect how much you will consequently suffer. If one is bull headed (no offense - that term applied to me at on point) then one will pay the price.

 

We can help if you post your taper schedule. Suggestion, add it to your signature line. :thumbsub: :grin:

[[TP...]]

Can anyone tell me what a "pretaper" is? 

Ts

 

Beats me.

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"Pretaper" is time you take certain supplements to make you feel normal from tolerance withdrawal. As soon as that happens you start real taper, and then adjust supplements accordingly. The term is used in a program called the Road Back http://www.theroadback.org/

 

I found this program on internet and thought I would try it and then report results to you guys as I go.

 

Pretaper lasts about 2 or three weeks.

 

My dosage now is 1 mg klon. Have been trying to taper to .75, but it is too much. Become very nervous.

 

this morning woke up short of breath. I guess this is symptom of withdrawal. But last night I took 1 mg. so it must be tolerance withdrawal. That's real bad news for me.

 

INB

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My dosage now is 1 mg klon. Have been trying to taper to .75, but it is too much. Become very nervous.

 

This morning woke up short of breath. I guess this is symptom of withdrawal. But last night I took 1 mg. so it must be tolerance withdrawal. That's real bad news for me.

 

INB

 

As one who has gone the Klonopin route and is having great success with a crossover to Valium, I would recommend that for you also. The first thing would be you would need to convert over to 20 mg Valium and go on from there. Whether you cross over or not is up to you, but if you stay on Klonopin you would hve to consider liquid titration (which is a real pain) in order to do a safe taper. From 1 mg to .75 is equivalent of 20 mg Valium to 15, and yes, you should expect that to be very tough on your CNS. Please let us know what you think so we can move ahead and try to work out a taper plan for you. If you wish to work on a schedule of your own, please try to think in terms of not cutting more than 10 percent every 10-14 days.  :thumbsup:

 

Tony

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Am seeing my doctor again this Tuesday. Last time I saw him and showed him the Ashton manual he said he didn't want to try it. I think I see why now. He doesn't know what to subscribe me. I am gaoing to ask him again to change me over from Klon to val, and maybe this time he will do it if he knows exactly what scripts to write me. I looked at the ashton Manual and couldn't figure out what to tell him I needed in terms of Valium...coming off 1 mg of klonopin. She has a schedule there for 3 mg of klonopin but not 1mg.

 

I can't think strainght now. Can someone please give me schedule for a valium changeover from 1mg og klon..and most importantly what script he should write.

 

I am feeling this way becseu of what Tony just wrote about it being easier with the valium.

 

If not, I DO  least think I can get the .5 mg tablets for klonopin from him.

 

In short: anybody got a valium to 1 mg per day klonopin switchover taper schedule to valium that also includes what the amount of valium the doctor should write for. I simply don't have the focusing power to figure it out for him from the Ashton Manual. 

 

This is a big thanks in advance,

 

Help, Colin,

 

INB

[[TP...]]

Am seeing my doctor again this Tuesday. Last time I saw him and showed him the Ashton manual he said he didn't want to try it. I think I see why now. He doesn't know what to subscribe me. I am gaoing to ask him again to change me over from Klon to val, and maybe this time he will do it if he knows exactly what scripts to write me. I looked at the ashton Manual and couldn't figure out what to tell him I needed in terms of Valium...coming off 1 mg of klonopin. She has a schedule there for 3 mg of klonopin but not 1mg.

 

I can't think strainght now. Can someone please give me schedule for a valium changeover from 1mg og klon..and most importantly what script he should write.

 

I am feeling this way becseu of what Tony just wrote about it being easier with the valium.

 

If not, I DO  least think I can get the .5 mg tablets for klonopin from him.

 

In short: anybody got a valium to 1 mg per day klonopin switchover taper schedule to valium that also includes what the amount of valium the doctor should write for. I simply don't have the focusing power to figure it out for him from the Ashton Manual. 

 

This is a big thanks in advance,

 

Help, Colin,

 

INB

 

I think Colin should be able to help, but for now you should get the doctor to prescribe you Diazepam 10 mg twice daily. Here is the Ashton Benzo equivalency chart. Please print it off, highlight the Clonazepam and Diazepam lines and give it to your doctor:

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

 

By the time you get back with the new script, Colin should probably have come up with some kind of crossover and taper schedule for you.

 

 

Tony

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Hi INB,

 

I've been asked to look at this thread: what is your situation? Are you taking 1mg per day (half of a 2mg tablets)? If so, you would probably benefit by using 0.5mg tablets instead.

 

It is never a good idea to switch benzos all in one go. Ashton recommend that 1mg of Klonopin is substituted with 20mg of Valium. many doctors (most, probably) do not agree with this being an equivalent dose, but even if the will prescribe this amount, again, this should not be carried out in one go. Have you considered titration instead? This would enable you to make small reductions to your dose without having to substitute with Valium. Let me know what you think.

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Thanks for passing my question over to Colin

 

Yes, Colin, I have 2 mg tablets now, and cut them in half.

 

I am about 95% sure my doc will give me .5 mg tablets. If you feel I should stay on Klonopin, I will, and not even ask doctor about the valium. I know klonopin was the drug you conquered, Colin, so I feel confident in your advice. It's was just that so many people seem to be using the Valium method.

 

I don't know what titration is. Is it something to do with liquefying the klonopin. Isn't this a little tricky? What kind of measuring instruments and containers do you need to have, and where do you get them?

 

Again, a BIG thanks in advance. As they say in the South, it's getting close to the nut cutting, so apprehension is creeping in. I am not looking forward to this, and  have much confidence in myself as a man. I, whom the whole family looked to for advice, am now a mental cripple....all over a pill the size of a piece of rice. I am just glad none of my sisters and mother know about this...I am 400 miles away from nuclear family. Would be completley embarassed. Must, as I have said so many times, keep this withdrawal nightmare hidden from my kids, though, so I am sure thankful for the strength you guys are sharing right now. Seems like time is going by so slowly. I know I have...what? about 6 months of hell to go?

INB

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

Without reacquainting myself with your history, you can probably taper off in weeks rather many months. Two months is probably sufficient - it all depend upon your taper rate.

 

Yes, titration involves making a liquid from your benzos. You will need a measuring cylinder (we recommend 100ml marked at 1ml increments). A pestle and martar is handy (but a cup and the back of spoon should surfice), and a 10ml syringe body is useful too. All I need to know is your dose; the size of your pills; the cylinder size and marked increments; the taper rate; and the start date. From this I work up a titration schedule for you. It will include the doses and the dates for any changes you need to make to your dose. There is no maths for you to carry out.

 

I try not to recommend any one method over another, but my view is that unless there is a need to make a change, then stick to what works. Titration only changes the size of cuts, so the change is slight, and it would be difficult to conceive how it can make things worse (rather, it should make things far easier), but substitution always carries risks of upset. The fact that you dose is quite small, means that a gradual substitution would be difficult, and substitution should be always carried out gradually (switching just a small part of your dose at a time). You certainly should not try to substitute half of 1mg tablet of Klonopin for equivalent dose of Valium. If you do intend to substitute, you should definitely obtain the 0.5mg tablets.

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Colin, sorry to be such a zchlub but, don't know where to buy a measuring cylinder, and 10ml syringe. I don't know how, but I actually have a morter and pestle.

 

Phew, I had thought that this thing would take up to a year. Read the Benzo Book so got that idea. That guy still seems to be hurting, though.

 

INB

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

The thing to remember is that he might have felt like this even if he tapered off over ten years. He might have other problems too. I honestly don't mean to belittle his experience, it is just that it is his experience, not mine or yours - it would be a mistake to extrapolate his experience into a general experience of withdrawal. His experience is not typical, I promise you.

 

Your pharmacist should be able to source these for you. They should be cheap. They are easily obtainable on the web. Once you have decided upon a taper rate (we can help you determin a sensible rate for you), I will work up a schedule.

 

I've just tried some figures in the titration spreadsheet. 10% over days would take about 5 months; 10% over 7 days would take about 3.5 months. This would be reduced further if I don't start of the taper as conservatively. You see, at some stage the taper switched over from taper system then gradually reduces the taper rate (as your dose diminshes), to a steady taper rate (where the rate stops decreasing). The default is that starts at 0.5mg of Klonopin, but it could start at 1mg (this is more judgement, as the titration system is still pretty young). If it was started at 1mg, and you tapered at 10% every 7 days, it would take just over two months. We can do this however you like. You can try one rate, and if doesn't work out, we can adjust it for you. Experience suggests that small titrated reductions to dosage make a faster withdrawal possible for some people.

[[Co...]]

Hi INB,

 

Maybe my initial guess at how long it would take to taper off 1mg was bit optimistic, but honestly, unless your past taper history tells you otherwise, you should be able to taper off well before a year. I would consider six months as slow, and 8 months as very slow. At the end of the day though, your experience will be individual to you. Perhaps, if you are nervous of tapering off too quickly, you should start out more conservatively and review the situation after a few weeks. I will work up a taper schedule to any rate you wish (within reason).

[[Ja...]]

Colin,

I agree, I wasn't doing nearly as bad and have not cut in 18 days due to extreme symptoms and lots of anxiety.

This person is already anxious to begin with, so I will side on the cautious side. 

You're right about starting slow and then building up a faster schedule if all it's going well.

 

I also don't consider myself in extreme case as I can tell you that I know people have taken as little as 9 10mg tablets and are still suffering today here in Mexico.

 

Someone told me: "Anybody can quit benzos c/t/jail/rapid detox/quit taper, but what's important here is to quit while you still have quality of life.

 

Jarocho

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One rule of thumb I am living by that has been repeated to me over and over again is "Listen to your body". I would add to that, "taper at a speed that is not only safe, but also tolerable". If we are stubborn it can backfire on us and we can self destruct. By following this philosophy I have minimised my withdrawals and can hopefully step off at the end without too much pain. It's not a race. 

 

T

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Okay, will do this according to body's reactions. What I want to know is if there are certain people who just can't make it off because of other psychological problems like bipolarism....which is what the doctor says I have.

[[TP...]]

Okay, will do this according to body's reactions. What I want to know is if there are certain people who just can't make it off because of other psychological problems like bipolarism....which is what the doctor says I have.

 

There are plenty of people who have been diagnosed as bi-polar and when they recover from benzos they're not bi-polar anymore. So it turns out it's the benzos.

 

T

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i was, still am to some, bi polar.  bi polar is one of those labels that if the doctor gets enough of them - will pay for a beach house in hawaii - a vacation home in az and lots of golf time.

 

since  have stopped all psychotropic drugs - benzo's included i have stopped exhibiting bi-polar symptoms.

 

going through withdrawals will certainly make you feel bi polar - but it just withdrawals.

 

 

[[TP...]]

i was, still am to some, bi polar.  bi polar is one of those labels that if the doctor gets enough of them - will pay for a beach house in hawaii - a vacation home in az and lots of golf time.

 

since  have stopped all psychotropic drugs - benzo's included i have stopped exhibiting bi-polar symptoms.

 

going through withdrawals will certainly make you feel bi polar - but it just withdrawals.

 

See! LOL Makes you feel bipolar because benzo withdrawal is up and down.

[[si...]]

just the inter dose symptoms alone would make a person appear bi-polar - even at full dose.

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The Stuff you guys have shared about bipolarism has made me feel so much better. I have always been so ashamed to be "bipolar", and always felt that I really wasn't but pushed it out of my mind the second I thought that....so much shame.

 

This whole thing all started with chronic pain, and I was given elavil. Then given klonoin to make me sleep well. Then Ambien, with the 1 mg of klonopin. Then I wanted to get off Ambien and doctor game me sonata. I didn't sleep from it but did notice that I was waking up with fear. In my whole life I had never had fear. Many scraps in school, no fear, brawls in colege and military, no fear. Doctor upped my dosage of klonopin to 4 mg. 2 in morning and two at night. That stopped my fear but I felt groggy. Told doctor. He summarily tells me to stop the klonopin and take Ambien 15 instead of 10mg. Within days I become like a lunatic...nervous, could not sit down, couldn't sleep (didn't sleep for 12 straight days...just pacing like tiger in a cage), incoherant, etc. At school kids notice I am acting differently. Parents inquire. I have verbal fight with parent. Now parents all come after me....principal on me like a tic. I am more and more nervous. Have no idea what is wrong with me....confused, alone. Finally one night when couldn't sleep went wild and ran into street and started screaming. Neighbors call cops. Everyone in neighborhood outside watching cops. Ambulance comes, takes me away to mental hospital..in front of everyone (thank God my kids little and actually slept through all this...phew). Doctors give me deprokote and paxil. Still can't sleep...another 10 days wihout a wink. Finally doctor gives me 1 mg of klonopin. I finally sleep alittle...but am now labeled bipolar.

 

Stayed home in bed or 4 months. Finally paxil kicks in and I have energy, but am really not myself. My kids young at time so don't know daddy was in mental house. Think I have a bad back (and still do to this day). Everyone in district knows I was in mental ward. I feel disgraced. Can't face other teachers, old parent friends and former students, parents, etc. "Hey, did you hear, Dr. INB is a nut". Reputation of 20 years down drain. Two PTA Jenkins lifetime awards, one Apple Award, Who's Who In American Education, full professor of education at univerity, etc ...all accomplishments summarily wiped out and forgotten....disgraced. Still feel nervous and uncomforable, so I retire early and move family 400 miles from there. Still the fear comes with me though. New psych doctor tries every bipolar combination therapy...nothing works. I still have no idea that klonopin could cause anthing but poop out. Still feel like crap. He raises klonopin again to 4. Groggy and wiped out all the time, and have what I know now are wd's from tolerance. This one also tells me just to stop taking it. Couldn't do it so was forced to taper on my own (had enough 2mg pills to last). Got down to 1 mg. a day and then when trying to go to .75...boom nervousness, fear, the jumpies when hear slightest loud sound.

 

Still confused but come across on internet book on benzos. I buy. Show regular doctor Ashton Doctor Ashton Manual. he wants nothing to do with cahnging me over to Valium. That drug is watched by New York State closely. So finally notice address for benzobuddies in Benzo Book. Colin lets me know I can use klonopin. Phew. Now waiting for Tuesday to ask doctor for .5s.

 

Posted here and got incredible outpour of help. But still ashamed to admit I ahd been in nut house. Finding out that bipolar is often just wd's really helped me. Now not so ashamed to have been there.

 

Am also taking 30 mg remeron for depression and sleep (works for sleep, but still depressed). Also taking 2400 mg of neurontin for neck pain. Like this drug. Makes me feel a little clearer.

 

Question..Should I taper remeron and neurontin while tapering klonopin.

 

I have been in this nightmare for 10 years. Have no confidence in my nervous system ever coming back top normal. Seems to be brickwall at 1 mg.

 

So that it folks...got it off my chest...I was in nut house!!!!....but now know it was from klonopin...phew that makes me feel better. So thanks a MILLION to your guys (TPirog, Silver,e tc) who shared that they were diagonosed falsely as bipolar.

 

You are the best,

 

INB

[[TP...]]

The Stuff you guys have shared about bipolarism has made me feel so much better.

 

Good. It was meant to.   

 

I have always been so ashamed to be "bipolar", and always felt that I really wasn't but pushed it out of my mind the second I thought that....so much shame.

 

Me too, bro!

 

This whole thing ... but am now labeled bipolar.

Wow! What a story! I noticed they tried you on all their bi-polar drugs and they didn't work. You'd think that'd provide them a clue.  :muscle:

 

Stayed home in bed or 4 months.

 

I did that!  :2funny:

 

But still ashamed to admit I had been in nut house. Finding out that bipolar is often just wd's really helped me. Now not so ashamed to have been there.

 

No need to be ashamed here. Between you and me: I been there too!

 

Question..Should I taper remeron and neurontin while tapering klonopin.

 

NO! NO! Wait. Must do 1 at a time! (Wish I had listened to that - got off Neurontin while working off Valium and it messed me right up.)

 

Have no confidence in my nervous system ever coming back to normal.

 

Those thought patterns are par for the course.

 

So that it folks...got it off my chest...I was in nut house!!!!....but now know it was from klonopin...phew that makes me feel better.

 

So glad for you.  :thumbsup:

 

So thanks a MILLION to your guys (TPirog, Silver,e tc) who shared that they were diagonosed falsely as bipolar.

 

Pleasure old bean! LOL.

 

You are the best,

Aw shucks! 

 

T

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i had fibromyalgia - and tendentious - was eventually unable to do my job - at the same time i was caring for a father who was dying and refused to move in with me and caring for a teen son.

 

so what label do they hang on me after losing three jobs in less then two yrs  - well if you guess bi-polar you would be right.

 

and i bought that label for yrs however i knew because of elevated kidney and liver blood work i had to get off the drugs - it was then that i discovered i was not nuts - i was medicated.

[[tr...]]

 

 

It's horrible what these drs. and drugs have done to you.  All your self-confidence went down the drain, but only for a while.  You will be back better than ever.  You will find out more here than you ever would at dr. office.  It's a shame, but it's true!