The Vaccine debate

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It's common knowledge that benzos can cause debilitating neurological issues that can last many years after the patient's last dose? Suuuuuuuure it is......

 

It's common knowledge that benzos are harmful and hard to withdraw from. And yes, many are aware that they do cause long term brain disfunction.

 

The prescribing situation is complex. It's not like going to buy a set of tires for your car.

 

GP attitudes towards different interventions

 

The treatment choices that GPs made in response to their perceptions of their patients, their patients’ expectations, and their own role and responsibilities were also influenced by their own attitudes and beliefs about different interventions. This ranged from disbelief that benzodiazepines would solve the patient’s problem to seeing drugs as the ‘lesser evil’ – particularly for psycho-social problems:

 

“A complex psychosocial situation is often the cause of the distress and the GP feels powerless in such situations. But the resolution of these problems does not always belong within the medical sphere; nevertheless, GPs look for a medical solution and they find BZDs to be the “lesser evil”: You have to think that if you were in their situation you would not know what to do either. In this situation this person needs a BZD to give him some support for the things that are unbearable”[28].

 

Benzodiazepines were viewed as safe or unsafe and effective or ineffective depending on the professional or personal experience of the GP. Negative attitudes towards benzodiazepines were based on their perceived risks:

 

“The addiction is so well known about that I think we all would just try and avoid using them for that reason” [26].

 

Others viewed the potential for dependence or adverse effects as less of a problem:

 

“GPs stated that dependence was not really a problem for first-time users. BZDs were seen as an efficient, cheap, and easy option that does not have too many side-effects” [28].

 

The ‘fast acting’ and effective nature of benzodiazepines for some GPs made them preferable to other forms of treatment:

 

“Sometimes it’s the easiest choice for people to feel best quickly. They feel better fast” [6].

 

Attitudes were also affected by GPs’ personal use of benzodiazepines:

 

“Your own attitude towards and experiences of the product definitely has an effect on prescribing. We, ourselves, take a lot of benzodiazepines” [28].

 

GPs perceived a lack of alternative treatments, depending on their knowledge of alternatives and their views about validity or effectiveness of non-pharmacological options for particular patients:

 

“GPs also feel uncertain how to deal with psychosocial problems, as a result of insufficient training: I have to do a lot of “psycho” Whether I want it or not but I haven’t got the training for it. What do I do? I prescribe…”[28].

 

“Scepticism regarding nonpharmacological approaches to the treatment of conditions such as anxiety and insomnia was expressed by the physicians interviewed. They identified common mild alternatives (e.g. warm milk, not watching violent movies before bed) and considered them to be ineffective for elderly people with chronic problems and thought that psychotherapeutic approaches were “doomed to failure”. Thus, the decision to prescribe medication was often seen as the most effective way to help the patient” [29].

 

In many cases, the alternatives used were ‘pills’ as these were thought to have benefits including placebo effects:

 

“GPs looked mainly for alternatives within their medical sphere. A wide range of medication such as antidepressants or neuroleptics was seen as an alternative. Other GPs were more inclined to use plant extracts because of a lower risk of dependence but at the same time they acknowledged a placebo effect” [28].

 

Some alternatives were seen as less ‘valid’ due to inaccessibility, stigma and costs for patients:

 

“Issues identified by less than five GPs included the need for non-stigmatised services; difficulty referring to other services, especially where there were stringent admission criteria; absence of feedback from other agencies; limited access to alternate services in rural and remote areas and a lack of time or resources to provide counselling, especially due to the absence of remuneration for doing so” [24].

 

The greater time GPs required to address patients’ (psychosocial) issues through alternative treatments (and the lack of remuneration for alternative treatments) compared with GPs’ view of benzodiazepines as a ‘fast acting’ solution for both the patient and themselves was another barrier:

 

“Physicians cited time constraints as both promoting benzodiazepine use and impeding discontinuation efforts. A benzodiazepine becomes a quick fix because you don’t have time, this is what they want, they don’t feel good, here it is. It numbs them up and you’re not gonna get a phone call afterwards, you’re not gonna get anything, you’ll see them in a month, here’s your renewal, see ya later” [6].

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4028802/

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Lol, I find Eric's naiveté, ignorance, and narrow-mindedness quite staggering in this day and age.  Now we have a link from psychologytoday.com on Allen Frances.  Eric, do you even know the backstory of this "gent", Dr. Allen Frances?  Google "Allen Frances Risperdal" and then come back and tell us why this man is not sitting in jail, instead of being lauded by people such as yourself?  Or is that also just another "conspiracy theory" in your insular view?

 

A couple more nonsense *Government* websites which should be dispelled.  God knows why these websites are even in existence considering vaccines are such wonderful, benign, lifesavers:

 

You can download the stats here.  I just skimmed 2018 and there are almost 50,000 reports, including 133 "deaths".  I'm not saying we need to categorically believe every word of every report there but, Jesus, keep an open mind at the very least.  Where there's smoke there's often fire.

 

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html

 

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

 

Maybe some other time I'll come back and tell you some personal heart-tugging stories about my years spent working in the ER of a large hospital.

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More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

The topic is benzodiazepines and the medical communities knowledge of their problems. I don't want to get into all those other issues.

 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Lol, I find Eric's naiveté, ignorance, and narrow-mindedness quite staggering in this day and age.  Now we have a link from psychologytoday.com on Allen Frances.  Eric, do you even know the backstory of this "gent", Dr. Allen Frances?  Google "Allen Frances Risperdal" and then come back and tell us why this man is not sitting in jail, instead of being lauded by people such as yourself?  Or is that also just another "conspiracy theory" in your insular view?

 

A couple more nonsense *Government* websites which should be dispelled.  God knows why these websites are even in existence considering vaccines are such wonderful, benign, lifesavers:

 

You can download the stats here.  I just skimmed 2018 and there are almost 50,000 reports, including 133 "deaths".  I'm not saying we need to categorically believe every word of every report there but, Jesus, keep an open mind at the very least.  Where there's smoke there's often fire.

 

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html

 

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

 

Maybe some other time I'll come back and tell you some personal heart-tugging stories about my years spent working in the ER of a large hospital.

 

So what, maybe I'll tell you about the years I spent working in the Operating Rooms of a very large teaching hospital.  Unlike you, I was not washing floors. 

 

The gent admitted that benzodiazepines are a problem and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago. I guess you missed that point.

 

Thanks for showing your ignorance.

 

 

[[Lo...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

[[...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

 

It's just an example posted for arguments sake that people in the medical community know about the issues and damage that benzos cause and many have know about it for years. Even an asshole such as he knew about benzo problems. That's all, nothing more. I don't know this guy and don't give a shit either. It was an example. Why are you all so anal? Go drink some tea. geez

 

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:laugh:

[[Lo...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

 

It's just an example posted for arguments sake that people in the medical community know about the issues and damage that benzos cause and many have know about it for years. Even an asshole such as he knew about benzo problems. That's all, nothing more. I don't know this guy and don't give a shit either. It was an example. Why are you all so anal? Go drink some tea. geez

 

I see that you resort to personal insults when your arguments are paper thin. I am sorry that you are suffering, but cognitive dissonance will not help you.

[[Ma...]]

It sounds like we have case of Robert McNamara syndrome in regard to this Alan Frances fellow

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More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

 

It's just an example posted for arguments sake that people in the medical community know about the issues and damage that benzos cause and many have know about it for years. Even an asshole such as he knew about benzo problems. That's all, nothing more. I don't know this guy and don't give a shit either. It was an example. Why are you all so anal? Go drink some tea. geez

 

I see that you resort to personal insults when your arguments are paper thin. I am sorry that you are suffering, but cognitive dissonance will not help you.

 

You don't  know what cognitive dissonance means, or what a personal attack is, or what paper thin means. You totally missed the point of everything.

[[Lo...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

 

It's just an example posted for arguments sake that people in the medical community know about the issues and damage that benzos cause and many have know about it for years. Even an asshole such as he knew about benzo problems. That's all, nothing more. I don't know this guy and don't give a shit either. It was an example. Why are you all so anal? Go drink some tea. geez

 

I see that you resort to personal insults when your arguments are paper thin. I am sorry that you are suffering, but cognitive dissonance will not help you.

 

You don't  know what cognitive dissonance means, or what a personal attack is, or what paper thin means. You totally missed the point of everything.

 

You don't even know me, yet you are making an assumption after assumption.

[[...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

And he failed to inform the general public as to their dangers until it became opportunistic for him to do so. If he knew something that others didn't and didn't inform his colleagues or the general public while insisting on the addiction language being in the forefront, he is just as guilty as those who were carelessly prescribing them.

 

It's just an example posted for arguments sake that people in the medical community know about the issues and damage that benzos cause and many have know about it for years. Even an asshole such as he knew about benzo problems. That's all, nothing more. I don't know this guy and don't give a shit either. It was an example. Why are you all so anal? Go drink some tea. geez

 

I see that you resort to personal insults when your arguments are paper thin. I am sorry that you are suffering, but cognitive dissonance will not help you.

 

You don't  know what cognitive dissonance means, or what a personal attack is, or what paper thin means. You totally missed the point of everything.

 

You don't even know me, yet you are making an assumption after assumption.

 

You don't know me either. Actually, you are the one who made the assumptions and it seems you don't like them being passed back to you.

 

Wow, this is getting really weird. Good night...

 

 

[[me...]]

This thread has gotten completely out of hand. It's disrupting the forum and serves no useful purpose, and multiple reports have come in. I' m locking it now.  A warning: do not carry these arguments onto any other threads.  Anyone who does will be risking being put on post moderation, which means they won't be able to post without pre approval of each post.

 

PLEASE NOTE:  This is a privately owned forum, and we have rules which we all agreed to when we joined.  Colin is the owner, so for the purposes of this forum, if he states something is a conspiracy theory, it is.  If you dissagree, fine, there are plenty of other forums online where you can go and discuss these things.

 

Also, regarding anti-doctor/anti-medication posts:

 

BenzoBuddies strives to allow for freedom of opinion on nearly any topic.  This includes the care and quality of medical care members have received.  We do understand that in many cases, substandard medical practices have led people to be put on medications which they likely did not need. Sometimes this has happened without full disclosure about the medication and its potential for harm. It is unfortunate that people have come to grievous harm by simply seeking help for a problem or health difficulty.

 

It is important to have a place to vent about these issues.  Every member is welcome to speak about their personal experience in dealing with medical providers and/or the drugs/medications they were prescribed. However, as clearly stated in our community policies, we are not an anti-doctor, anti-benzo, anti-medication forum.

 

As of late, some members have disregarded this policy.  It seems they feel that they are exempt from following BB policies. Not so, since each member agreed to abide by our policies, guidelines and rules upon joining the forum.

 

BenzoBuddies is a peer support forum with a mission to encourage and support those who wish to taper off benzodiazepines.  BB is not a platform for those who wish to degrade the entire medical profession.

 

Some people have disregarded the team's efforts to remind members about this policy.  This compels us to take a stronger approach in the future.

 

1.  All posts which include general anti-doctor, anti-psychiatry propaganda will be edited or deleted by the moderation team.

 

2. If the member persists to post in this manner, Post Moderation (pre-approval control of posts) will be applied by the team.

 

Please refamiliarize yourself with BB policy by clicking on the following links:

 

Rules & Guidelines for the BenzoBuddies Community

 

Anti-doctor, Anti-psychiatrist and Anti-medicine Comments

[[Co...]]

More on Dr. Allen Frances:

 

Allen Frances Names and Shames the Power Players, but Not Himself

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2015/10/29/allen-frances-names-and-shames-the-power-players-but-not-himself/

 

At least he realized the problems that benzos cause and stoped prescribing them 30 years ago.

 

The topic is benzodiazepines and the medical communities knowledge of their problems. I don't want to get into all those other issues.

 

Not to mention the logical fallacy of dismissing the reasoning of Allen Frances simply because LorazepamFree2015 might happen to disagree with his arguments about another, unconnected topic.

[[Co...]]

It sounds like we have case of Robert McNamara syndrome in regard to this Alan Frances fellow

 

OK - I'll bite. What is Robert McNamara Syndrome?

[[...]]

It sounds like we have case of Robert McNamara syndrome in regard to this Alan Frances fellow

 

OK - I'll bite. What is Robert McNamara Syndrome?

 

The accuser seems to suffer from this syndrome.

 

"One way of diagnosing an individual or institution suffering from the McNamara Syndrome is to observe how they respond to criticism. Do they accept it and try to make use of it? Or do they lash out contemptuously, sneering at those who dare criticize them? It’s a good test at which many businesses, individuals and even educational institutions do poorly."

https://philipdelvesbroughton.com/2009/07/07/the-mcnamara-syndrome/

[[Ma...]]

What happened to locking this thread? It was my suggestion from the time all the trouble started. It seems those on the right side of the argument are allowed to continue to post while those on the wrong side are under the threat of post moderation if they respond

[[Co...]]

What happened to locking this thread? It was my suggestion from the time all the trouble started. It seems those on the right side of the argument are allowed to continue to post while those on the wrong side are under the threat of post moderation if they respond

It wasn't locked when I posted my remarks a little earlier. I did not even know of the locking until I subsequently read of it in megan918's post. Either it was locked and later unlocked, or megan918 neglected to lock it after her post (I've done this myself, more than once).

 

But to answer your real point, yes, some of the rhetoric needs to be wound back before it gets completely out of hand.

 

 

[Guest [Le...]]

It was locked twice, in fact, but sometimes the locks simply fail for some reason.

 

I’ve locked it again for now, at least until things cool off. 

[[me...]]

It was locked twice, in fact, but sometimes the locks simply fail for some reason.

 

I’ve locked it again for now, at least until things cool off. 

 

Strange.  As the moderation log shows I locked it, (then wrote and posted my last post) then double checked and locked it again.