The Vaccine debate

[[Ma...]]

This topic was brought up on a previous thread, and we were advised to bring the conversation here I am not here to claim vaccines are always useless or dangerous but rather to simply identify to what degree they have been effective or dangerous by the statistics and analyses available to us

 

In regard to smallpox

 

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/05/dr-vernon-coleman-on-how-the-smallpox-vaccine-did-not-eradicate-smallpox/

 

On Polio

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/did-vaccines-really-eradicate-polio/

 

 

On Measles

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/the-truth-about-measles-the-mainstream-media-is-suppressing/

 

 

 

 

 

[[se...]]

What is it that we're supposed to infer from these sources?  I don't see any statistics or analyses identifying the degree to which vaccines are effective or dangerous.

 

Health Impact News looks to be owned by a Christian publishing company with a religious agenda.

 

Got anything else?

[[Fi...]]

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-benefits

[[Ma...]]

What is it that we're supposed to infer from these sources?  I don't see any statistics or analyses identifying the degree to which vaccines are effective or dangerous.

 

Health Impact News looks to be owned by a Christian publishing company with a religious agenda.

 

Got anything else?

 

It addresses the question raised at the previous threads as to the degree the vaccines in question reduced the death rates of the diseases in question.

[[Ma...]]

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-benefits

 

These studies quote pre-twentieth century rates So do the analyses in my links The difference is the death rates ate basically eliminated prior to the introduction of vaccines

[[Ca...]]

Reguardless of my personal views, I once read a book where two graduates recieved funding to study the sleep of successive infants to those that had passed frpm SIDS...

As they proceeded, they found a strong connection to serious breathing issues in the imidiate days following immunisation...

They wished to explore this further, but the study was pulled and funding denied... The book was to raise funds for further study...  Sadly someone pinched my copy..

 

They also claimed that in japan (at the time) SIDS was nearly non existant, and this was due to the immunisation being given after the age of 5...

 

Sorry, Cantremember the name of the book, so take what you will from this...

 

I also found it interesting that while we debated immunisation proticol for our kids (in our situation) we came across several Drs that refused to immunise their own children...!!

 

 

 

[[se...]]

What is it that we're supposed to infer from these sources?  I don't see any statistics or analyses identifying the degree to which vaccines are effective or dangerous.

 

Health Impact News looks to be owned by a Christian publishing company with a religious agenda.

 

Got anything else?

 

It addresses the question raised at the previous threads as to the degree the vaccines in question reduced the death rates of the diseases in question.

 

Can you be more specific?

 

The benefits and impact of vaccines have been shown time and again. Sanitation in the developing world has not improved at the same rate despite enormous drops in infectious disease rates. Here’s a more helpful dialogue to take a look at.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4024226/

[[Fi...]]

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-benefits

 

These studies quote pre-twentieth century rates So do the analyses in my links The difference is the death rates ate basically eliminated prior to the introduction of vaccines

 

The studies do not compare pre-twentieth century rates but rather twentieth century rates (pre vaccine rates) to 21st century rates. Here is another that compares twentieth century rates (pre vaccine rates) to twentieth century (post vaccine rates):

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm

[[Ma...]]

Well lets be very specific In the link for measles I provided the death rate dropped some 98 percent in the early 1900's until the introduction of the measles vaccine in 1968. Please let me know what needs to be clarified?

[[Ma...]]

Fi Adendum If you have some clear graphs that cite specific years in question that refute the measles chart I have provided I would be most interested Simply referring to pre vaccine rates in the 20th century is simply ambiguous

[[Fi...]]

I probably should not torture myself by following this thread much further but, MattNapa I'm curious, what thoughts & references do you have regarding vaccination for the non- disease condition of Rh negative mothers who give birth to Rh positive infants and wish to have another child? The vaccine is called Rhogam. 

[[Ma...]]

Fi With all respect I am happy to move to other topics once we acknowledge the topic at hand one way or another.

[[se...]]

I agree with Fi Addendum that it would be rather torturous to continue this argument.  The information brought forth from this site, Health Impact News, is dubious at best and presented with bias.  A presentation of how the data were collected, synthesized, analyzed, and interpreted would be necessary for a more robust argument.

[[Co...]]

This topic was brought up on a previous thread, and we were advised to bring the conversation here I am not here to claim vaccines are always useless or dangerous but rather to simply identify to what degree they have been effective or dangerous by the statistics and analyses available to us

 

In regard to smallpox

 

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/05/dr-vernon-coleman-on-how-the-smallpox-vaccine-did-not-eradicate-smallpox/

 

On Polio

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/did-vaccines-really-eradicate-polio/

 

 

On Measles

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/the-truth-about-measles-the-mainstream-media-is-suppressing/

 

Actually, I have to say, I do not appreciate BB being used to spread conspiracy theories and anti-med propaganda. In fact, we have a rule against it. As for the first link, to an article by Vernon Coleman (professional git and all-round asshole), this hardy instills confidence in your arguments. Vernon Coleman seems to suffer from a personality disorder, where the more he upsets people, the happier he becomes. When Leslie Ash suggested that you start your anti-vaxxer topic elsewhere, I wonder if she meant another website, away from BB!? In any case, that would be my suggestion.

 

Just for fun, a first-person anecdote (from a doctor) about Coleman: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=1c19d9168fc1fa78701399e2d0615ea9&p=701695&postcount=3

[[...]]

Copied from the other thread.

 

Okay, anyway, it's good to know that threads will be monitored for veering off topic, I apologize, I truly was not aware of this rule and will be sure to try and report same in future.  This was the post that took me forever to create last night which I'll continue on the new thread should Eric come along there.

 

 

 

Habits create and eradicate disease not drugs. Aids is not a natural disease, it came from Chimps that spread to humans, most people in the world do not get Aids. Did you read what i stated?. The increase in life span has nothing to do with polio vaccines, penicillin vaccines, it has to do with better sanitation and nutrition. Diseases plummeted before vaccines were introduced because of better sanitation and nutrition. These vaccines were a total failure and cause the same thing they're supposed to treat including cancer and sudden death.

 

Did you read the link and quote i posted?. It's not human error it's taking drugs as prescribed and directed by doctors. Don't be in denial.

 

 

 

What you wrote here is total bullshit. I had all those childhood diseases and lived in a clean house with sanitation. Every kid got them because there were no vaccines when I was a kid.

My grandkids didn't get any of those diseases because they were vaccinated. Your ignorance is astounding on this topic and it's because of ignorance and stupidity like this that those horrible diseases are spreading again.

 

Actually, Eric, there is a possibility that Scooby just may not be talking total bullshit or be quite as ignorant and stupid as you seem to think.  It doesn't help when both sides are butting heads without sharing any authoritative references, but if one makes the effort to explore this topic in any depth, indeed, one might conclude that there certainly is some extremely compelling evidence in support of Scooby's stance.

 

I don't really have the interest or inclination to go digging up all these links myself at the moment, but, I assure you they're not from random commercial sites such as livestrong.com which, based on your prior posts, appears to be where you gather much of your information and opinions?  It's always good to keep an open mind, Eric, you might find it a refreshing change.

 

I have explored this topic first hand from working in a world renowned paediatric hospital for decades. Seen what happens to unvaccinated kids first hand. The worst is kids who didn't get a pneumococcal meningitis vaccine. Their hands and feet became gangrenous and so did noses and other parts of their bodies and all this had to be amputated. Hundreds of these cases came through the operating room. It is so heartbreaking. You all who are going on with your nonsense need to open your minds because you are the ones who are ignorant and a danger to society.

 

 

"Meningococcal disease describes infections caused by the bacterium Neisseria meningitidis (also termed meningococcus). It has a high mortality rate if untreated but is vaccine-preventable. Prevention

The most important form of prevention is a vaccine against N. meningitidis. Different countries have different strains of the bacteria and therefore use different vaccines. Twelve serogroups (strains) exist with six having the potential to cause a major epidemic - A, B, C, X, Y and W135 are responsible for virtually all cases of the disease in humans. Vaccines are currently available against all six strains, including the newest vaccine against serogroup B. "

 

 

You can look at the photo of what this looks like here.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningococcal_disease

 

https://news.yahoo.com/toddler-lost-leg-part-foot-221400000.html

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

[[...]]

Reguardless of my personal views, I once read a book where two graduates recieved funding to study the sleep of successive infants to those that had passed frpm SIDS...

As they proceeded, they found a strong connection to serious breathing issues in the imidiate days following immunisation...

They wished to explore this further, but the study was pulled and funding denied... The book was to raise funds for further study...  Sadly someone pinched my copy..

 

They also claimed that in japan (at the time) SIDS was nearly non existant, and this was due to the immunisation being given after the age of 5...

 

Sorry, Cantremember the name of the book, so take what you will from this...

 

I also found it interesting that while we debated immunisation proticol for our kids (in our situation) we came across several Drs that refused to immunise their own children...!!

 

 

This is more nonsense.

 

Vaccines and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)

 

 

Vaccines have not been shown to cause sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

 

Babies receive multiple vaccines when they are between 2 to 4 months old. This age range is also the peak age for sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). The timing of the 2 month and 4 month shots and SIDS has led some people to question whether they might be related. However, studies have found that vaccines do not cause and are not linked to SIDS.

 

Multiple research studies and safety reviews have looked at possible links between vaccines and SIDS. The evidence accumulated over many years do not show any links between childhood immunization and SIDS.

 

Placing healthy babies on their backs to sleep reduces the risk of SIDS.

 

SIDS is the sudden, unexpected death of a baby younger than 1 year of age that doesn’t have a known cause even after a complete investigation. These deaths often happen during sleep or in the baby’s sleep area.

 

In 1992, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended that healthy babies be placed on their backs to sleep. That recommendation, along with the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development’s 1994 “Back-to-Sleep” campaign (now known as the Safe to Sleep® campaign), encouraged caregivers to place infants on their backs to sleep, and coincided with a dramatic reduction in the SIDS rate in the United States. See the latest recommendations on a safe infant sleep environment from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

 

Also, research has found the rate of SIDS declined dramatically following the 1994 “Back-to-Sleep” campaign, and then stabilized in the 2000s at a time when the number of infant immunizations was increasing. The findings provide strong evidence that immunization is not linked to SIDS. See the published article on SIDS rates.

 

CDC and FDA closely monitor the safety of all vaccines.

 

CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are committed to ensuring that vaccines provided to the public are safe and effective. Once vaccines are licensed in the United States, CDC and FDA continuously monitor them through several safety systems. Learn more about CDC’s vaccine safety monitoring and research.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/sids.html

 

A university professor of medicine says that Japan is more than 10 years behind European and North American countries in its inoculation policy and his view is widely shared.

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/26/commentary/japan-commentary/japans-backward-vaccination-policy/#.XB_lSy0ZMW9

[[Lo...]]

As for the first link, to an article by Vernon Coleman (professional git and all-round asshole), this hardy instills confidence in your arguments. Vernon Coleman seems to suffer from a personality disorder, where the more he upsets people, the happier he becomes.

 

In any case, that would be my suggestion.

 

Just for fun, a first-person anecdote (from a doctor) about Coleman: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=1c19d9168fc1fa78701399e2d0615ea9&p=701695&postcount=3

 

Thanks for some clarifications, Colin.

 

Since we are on the topic of Vernon Coleman, I wanted to find out a few things about him. I am not really familiar with his work other than some quotes, etc I found on benzo.org.uk site, and that he had written a book called "Life Without Tranquilizers" in 1980',  which seems to be out of print.

 

I have not read his book and do not know about this man, but as a UK national, do you know if his book and work on the danger of benzodiazepine tranquilizers had actually done much of anything in terms of raising awareness and actually helping people out or has his work done nothing more but foster even more confusion about this class of prescription drugs to the point that it had made things even more confusing?

 

I would be interested to know because I wonder if citing any Coleman's work here and outside of this forum is actually helpful. Does Coleman really possess proper knowledge about benzodiazepines to the point that he can be safely quoted? Can he be safely quoted, or is his body of work so controversial and unreliable to the point that it cannot be reliably quoted or used for spreading the benzodiazepine awareness?

[[...]]

 

I also found it interesting that while we debated immunisation proticol for our kids (in our situation) we came across several Drs that refused to immunise their own children...!!

 

 

What kind of "Drs". There's lots and lots of quacks out there who call themselves dr, such as naturopaths and chiropractors for example, who are not medical doctors who tend to promote dubious, harmful nonsense.

 

A real medical doctor would never give this type of negligent advise because they can be sued and lose their medical licence, so I'm positive that whoever gave you this bad advise was not a real doctor.

[[Co...]]

As for the first link, to an article by Vernon Coleman (professional git and all-round asshole), this hardy instills confidence in your arguments. Vernon Coleman seems to suffer from a personality disorder, where the more he upsets people, the happier he becomes.

 

In any case, that would be my suggestion.

 

Just for fun, a first-person anecdote (from a doctor) about Coleman: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=1c19d9168fc1fa78701399e2d0615ea9&p=701695&postcount=3

 

Thanks for some clarifications, Colin.

 

Since we are on the topic of Vernon Coleman, I wanted to find out a few things about him. I am not really familiar with his work other than some quotes, etc I found on benzo.org.uk site, and that he had written a book called "Life Without Tranquilizers" in 1980',  which seems to be out of print.

 

I have not read his book and do not know about this man, but as a UK national, do you know if his book and work on the danger of benzodiazepine tranquilizers had actually done much of anything in terms of raising awareness and actually helping people out or has his work done nothing more but foster even more confusion about this class of prescription drugs to the point that it had made things even more confusing?

 

I would be interested to know because I wonder if citing any Coleman's work here and outside of this forum is actually helpful. Does Coleman really possess proper knowledge about benzodiazepines to the point that he can be safely quoted? Can he be safely quoted, or is his body of work so controversial and unreliable to the point that it cannot be reliably quoted or used for spreading the benzodiazepine awareness?

 

Coleman is like an American Shock Jock. He engages in dangerous, disingenuous sensationalism for monitory gain and infamy. I make no attempt to asses any particular claim made by Coleman, because his aim is publicity, not enlightenment - it would be a monumental waste of my time. He sometimes may be right about a particular point on a particular issue, but I expect more by accident than through reasoned analysis. In short, he cannot be trusted as a source. As you can probably tell, I do not like him (but that's besides the point).

 

This article/interview is pretty good, and quite funny too. I think it gives reasonable impression of the guy. He's a joke.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/doctor-on-the-make-1303622.html

[[...]]

This topic was brought up on a previous thread, and we were advised to bring the conversation here I am not here to claim vaccines are always useless or dangerous but rather to simply identify to what degree they have been effective or dangerous by the statistics and analyses available to us

 

In regard to smallpox

 

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/05/dr-vernon-coleman-on-how-the-smallpox-vaccine-did-not-eradicate-smallpox/

 

On Polio

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/did-vaccines-really-eradicate-polio/

 

 

On Measles

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/the-truth-about-measles-the-mainstream-media-is-suppressing/

 

All these links you posted are run by quacks and spread quackery. None of them are qualified or educated on any of these topics they are misleading people on. Total bullshit.

[Guest [Le...]]

Actually, I have to say, I do not appreciate BB being used to spread conspiracy theories and anti-med propaganda. In fact, we have a rule against it. As for the first link, to an article by Vernon Coleman (professional git and all-round asshole), this hardy instills confidence in your arguments. Vernon Coleman seems to suffer from a personality disorder, where the more he upsets people, the happier he becomes. When Leslie Ash suggested that you start your anti-vaxxer topic elsewhere, I wonder if she meant another website, away from BB!? In any case, that would be my suggestion.

 

Just for fun, a first-person anecdote (from a doctor) about Coleman: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=1c19d9168fc1fa78701399e2d0615ea9&p=701695&postcount=3

 

Well, I have to take responsibility for this – when I suggested taking the vaccine debate to Off Topic, I was thinking more in terms of having a reasonable discussion about which vaccines indisputably work (smallpox), and which ones are perhaps better skipped.

 

Due to my own naïveté, I failed to realize that such a discussion would devolve into an across-the-board anti-vaxxer brawl. 

[[Ca...]]

Actually, I have to say, I do not appreciate BB being used to spread conspiracy theories and anti-med propaganda. In fact, we have a rule against it. As for the first link, to an article by Vernon Coleman (professional git and all-round asshole), this hardy instills confidence in your arguments. Vernon Coleman seems to suffer from a personality disorder, where the more he upsets people, the happier he becomes. When Leslie Ash suggested that you start your anti-vaxxer topic elsewhere, I wonder if she meant another website, away from BB!? In any case, that would be my suggestion.

 

Just for fun, a first-person anecdote (from a doctor) about Coleman: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=1c19d9168fc1fa78701399e2d0615ea9&p=701695&postcount=3

 

Well, I have to take responsibility for this – when I suggested taking the vaccine debate to Off Topic, I was thinking more in terms of having a reasonable discussion about which vaccines indisputably work (smallpox), and which ones are perhaps better skipped.

 

Due to my own naïveté, I failed to realize that such a discussion would devolve into an across-the-board anti-vaxxer brawl. 

Yes, I think I will have to help you out here, and refrain from commenting on how things went for my eldest child, and the discussions and proticols that followed.. It seems others are far more the expert on my life than I...

Anything to do with our childrens health can quickly become very emotionally charged, and potentially unproductive...

 

Though if I can quickly note... -A couple of small changes to the immunisation process appeared to make quite the difference to my following 3 children... Perhaps precautionary due to our location and medical isolation, who will ever realy know...

 

I was Certainaly happy to know the kids had certain immunisations once we moved into society and they started conventional schooling...

 

Eric, sorry I didnt respond to you personally, I think we have very different communication styles...

 

My best to all...

 

 

[[Ma...]]

Colin said

 

Actually, I have to say, I do not appreciate BB being used to spread conspiracy theories and anti-med propaganda. In fact, we have a rule against it.

 

 

Matt replies

 

Hopefully that does not include simply including actual statistics of what the death rates for measles in the last 100 years approximately were If the discussion needs to limited to that simple fact I am happy to go along, But if there cannot even be a reasoned discussion as to whether or not we can find an agreed upon trusted source to find that statistic, I would have to better understand the difficulty. My understanding is that the graph shown in the Health Impact News site is indeed a government source and will happily try to gain additional proof that that is the case I have not seen a contrary explanation about what the actual death rates from measles were in this period and it would seem reasonable to believe such statistics do exist

[Guest [Le...]]

Colin said

 

Actually, I have to say, I do not appreciate BB being used to spread conspiracy theories and anti-med propaganda. In fact, we have a rule against it.

 

Matt replies

 

Hopefully that does not include simply including actual statistics of what the death rates for measles in the last 100 years approximately were If the discussion needs to limited to that simple fact I am happy to go along, But if there cannot even be a reasoned discussion as to whether or not we can find an agreed upon trusted source to find that statistic, I would have to better understand the difficulty. My understanding is that the graph shown in the Health Impact News site is indeed a government source and will happily try to gain additional proof that that is the case I have not seen a contrary explanation about what the actual death rates from measles were in this period and it would seem reasonable to believe such statistics do exist

 

The graphs shown are each marked as having been sourced from Suzanne Humphries of ‘Dissolving Illusion,’ both committed to the dissemination of anti-vaxxing disinformation, also known as propaganda.

[[Ma...]]

So where is the real data then? And as I stated I am making some effort to get verification that it is a government source. Sad I have to reiterate that