Lack of tolerance here and elsewhere

[Guest [Sk...]]

Thanks, Marigold, I guess it is about manners quite often but it is more than that. It is what I encounter in the consulting room, the passive aggressiveness, thinly disguised, silencing the voice of the patient, all sorts of unpleasant ways of maintaining the upper hand, often done with a smile.  I follow two psychiatrists on Twitter, they work hand in glove, they are bullies and that seems to be their primary purpose, to belittle, silence, discredit.  Narcissist doctors, powerful people, abusing that power to the detriment of so many.

 

I totally agree    :'( :'( :'(

[Guest [Ru...]]

Fiona,

 

I haven't read the whole thread (sorry, guys, just incredibly jittery & brain-fogged), but I just wanted to stop by and lend my support.

 

The whole intolerance thing has become a sad hallmark of social media, not just on here on BB. It's fear. People all over (not just w/d sufferers) no longer feel safe in the world...the way we've set up society is not working for anyone...

 

The fear triggers an 'us versus them' mentality: let's mob/put down those we don't agree with, so we can feel safe/superior/part of a dominant group. Love versus fear. It's a primitive response, but a human way to respond in uncertain times, sadly.

 

It's not you. Keep shining your light. Let's keep choosing love over fear.

 

Huge hugs to you. 

[[lo...]]

Thank you so much, Rubylove .. you are right it is much bigger than social media .. society has changed, the political climate has changed, there are stark divisions .. it is played out on social media .. it is very ugly and I spend most days observing it .. it is not good, it is not healthy and it is very sad. 

 

Take care

 

Fiona 

 

 

[[be...]]

I have seen it here too, a mean-spirited, passive-aggressiveness that in my mind has nothing to do with being sick and angry.  My inclination is to back off BB and like Skyblue, just read and not post much....rather go plant some seeds in the back alley garden, watch them grow..... I'm on the shy side anyways.  As for Facebook and Twitter, it's out of the question for me, as much as I'd like to help get the word out in more ways, there's no way I could take the abuse.  There are so many awful people out there.

 

Grateful for the clearly, consistently good people here. 

 

Thanks, benzohno, since I started this thread I have been made aware of another thread which has simply appalled me. Mean-spirited, passive-aggressiveness says it all. perhaps I am reacting so badly because of the way my doctors have behaved .. passive-aggressive is the correct description.  I used to be on the shy side, not sure if I still am or not, difficult to tell, my brain has been  chemically altered and I am not the same person in many ways, though in the important ways I still am.  I still however get very upset when I see people being put down ... it is often someone else and not me.  It is a real shame. 

 

Hugs

 

Fiona 

 

Ooof, I saw that thread after I posted the above.  It wasn't to that thread to which I was referring either.  I hate seeing others getting abused on here too.  What I've been seeing was not directed at me either.  I don't like it and I don't understand why it is allowed to carry on.  I think people are afraid to say anything.  I know I am reluctant. 

 

I am also feeling chemically altered which does change my behaviour on the worst days--the anger and anxiety, the pain, I let drive me at times because there is no choice.  Sometimes it makes things happen, channeled into letters and posters and stickers.....trying to see the bright side here.  I think you know what I mean.

 

Sorry for all you went through yesterday Fiona.  It was a rough day, I saw.  Take care.  And everyone else here too, take care.

 

 

[[lo...]]

Thanks, benzohono, I do understand very well.  Being chemically altered isn't much fun.  I have been chemically altered for over 40 years, in some ways it was easier on the drugs ... my brain and body had become used to that, very used to that.  Now it has been altered all over again ...

 

You take care too.

 

Fiona 

 

 

[[Ph...]]

Since it has been used several times in this and other threads, I've embarked on a mission to understand just what the term "passive aggressive" really means.

 

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-passive-aggressive-behavior-2795481

 

https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/what-does-passive-aggressive-really-mean.aspx

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior

 

Educational.  I've learned a thing or two.  But based on these and other articles, it seems that passive aggressive behavior more often occurs in real world situations, like in an office environment, in a relationship or in a "resist authority" kind of scenario.  It also seems to be a very common behavior that all people engage in.  So common actually, that a person that doesn't exhibit the behavior at all might be considered, well...odd.

 

But how does passive aggressive behavior manifest in an internet forum like this one?  Shunning?  Sarcasm?  Is an accusation or suggestion of passive aggressive behavior on the part of another in itself an example of passive aggressive behavior?  Is my questioning of the frequent use of the term yet another example of passive aggressive behavior?  Will I be subjected to a passive aggressive response for even questioning the frequent use of the term?

 

Do we invoke fancy diagnosis-like terms when in reality we're just observing normal human behavior?  What's the payoff for us when we do that?  Forgive me for wondering.  It's just what I do.

 

[[lo...]]

I had never heard of the term either so it is a new concept to me.  I encountered behaviour in the consulting room that I had never encountered before as a patient until I had suffered a brain injury and started to challenge the behaviour of my doctors.  So this is a situation where there is a power imbalance and the behaviour seemed very odd to me in this context.  It may be normal human behaviour but it was not the normal behaviour to be found between doctor and patient.  In the UK, benzo withdrawal is well known, it is not some rarely known phenomenon.  So to find doctors refused to discuss in any way, shape or form seemed the oddest way to behave.  Normally if you go to see a doctor you discuss your symptoms, why they may be happening etc etc.  I have spent  about 4 years now trying to have this kind of normal conversation with a doctor to no avail - why?  they do not wish to discuss it.  Are they really ignorant or simply pretending to be so?  Are they lying?  They smile at me, what is their real agenda .. there is certainly something very odd going on. This is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. It is the most perplexing business I have ever encountered.

 

This leads to huge anger on my part, how do the doctors respond, they carry on of course and I become more angry and they continue and I become even more angry, they have the power ..not me .. and we can carry on like this as I become ever more enraged but they hold the cards .. I can do nothing to achieve a normal discussion about my devastating health problems.

 

So moving to the forum, this is not real life and it is not a normal situation, most of us try to be kind and supportive, it is therefore rather strange when the opposite is happening, no power imbalance here, we are all in the same boat.  Shunning and sarcasm are not to me forms  of passive aggressiveness, that is overt behaviour, you can clearly see it happening, no it is more subtle than that, just like the doctor's behaviour in the consulting room.  It is done in such a way that it is difficult to complain about it, the doctors are very clever not to do anything that can actually be used against them .. they smile as they refuse to discuss my health problems, they are polite, they present a respectable face .. but you know what they are doing and it is not pleasant. 

 

So here I have encountered overt unpleasant behaviour .. that is easy to point out .. then I have encountered more subtle behaviour that is also unpleasant but more difficult to put your finger on.  Things are said that can be read in two different ways so the person can then pretend they did not mean anything by it.  But they move on and do the same again and the same again, there is a a pattern,  I see it on Twitter as I engage with leading psychiatrists .. the hidden agenda, the faked concern, the avoidance of subjects, everything contrived, nothing genuine, all with ulterior motives.  You can never trust because nothing is quite as it seems.  But nothing unpleasant is said, no sarcasm, all very subtle so there is no obvious reason to complain.

 

Questioning the use of a term is just that .. questioning the use of a term, that is not passive aggressive.  Why would you be subjected to a passive aggressive response for questioning the use of the term, if I was to be passive aggressive I would not discuss openly.  I am not a passive aggressive person so I imagine I would find it very difficult to engage in the behaviour I am describing.

 

However,  you could be responding here to be annoying and to antagonise ... this is the difficulty .. with passive aggressive behaviour it is always subtle, you can't quite be sure what someone is up to .. but the pattern of behaviour usually gives it away .. it is a pattern to be observed over time .. then it becomes clear.

 

So that is my experience of this and my own attempt to make sense of it.  It is a new phenomenon to me. I find it very difficult because I am a straightforward person, I have no hidden agenda or ulterior motives, I find it difficult when others do not behave in a similar way.  I gravitate towards people who are also open and I choose friends who are open.  I am not used to this kind of behaviour. 

 

If it is normal behaviour it is not the sort of behaviour I have encountered before or if I did I was unaware of it. I have no time for people who are not open and honest and therefore I would avoid them as far as possible, they would not be in my circle.  So the behaviour is not something I am used to dealing with.  So here I will avoid the people I feel are engaging in this behaviour, to me they are not genuine in their purpose, with my doctors I keep trying a different doctor and on Twitter I will continue to engage with psychiatrists because I need to do this for campaign purposes, otherwise I would have nothing to do with them.

 

I have discussed this with others and the term seems to fit what we are describing .. we need a common term to describe it. I don't know of another one. 

 

I tend to write long explanations, that is what I do!!!  That is me.

 

And now you might laugh at the fact I have bothered .. was it all really a trap after all?  you see, we can never be quite sure, can we?  But you won't tell me if that was in fact your purpose .. you will pose more questions and pretend it is because you are curious, you want to discuss when in fact that is not your reason at all.

 

The sad fact is that benzo withdrawal has changed me and I now trust no one .. and then I wonder is it really me, perhaps I am imagining things .. and it has all become very damaging .. my brain is damaged, I cannot trust my own judgement and so I discuss with others and am reassured it is not just me, others are observing what I am observing and it is very unpleasant indeed.

[[Ph...]]

Fiona, thank you for your insightful, sincere reply to my post.  I've read it several times to extract as much meaning as I can.  I've learned from it.  You're a resource and a lovely person.  When it comes time for us all to heal, you should be near the front of the line.

 

I'm trying to learn more about language.  How it mutates and evolves.  How words and phrases become fashionable, how they come and go.  How we signal, test, comfort or attack each other with a word or phrase.  How a word can be abducted from the past and twisted into an entirely new meaning in the present.  The process of a word becoming taboo.  Or simply invented.

 

That's all.  I've been curious (okay, maybe a little suspicious) lately about the increasing use of "passive aggressive" in some of these contexts.

 

I understand this better now.  Again, my sincere thanks!

[[lo...]]

Fiona, thank you for your insightful, sincere reply to my post.  I've read it several times to extract as much meaning as I can.  I've learned from it.  You're a resource and a lovely person.  When it comes time for us all to heal, you should be near the front of the line.

 

I'm trying to learn more about language.  How it mutates and evolves.  How words and phrases become fashionable, how they come and go.  How we signal, test, comfort or attack each other with a word or phrase.  How a word can be abducted from the past and twisted into an entirely new meaning in the present.  The process of a word becoming taboo.  Or simply invented.

 

That's all.  I've been curious (okay, maybe a little suspicious) lately about the increasing use of "passive aggressive" in some of these contexts.

 

I understand this better now.  Again, my sincere thanks!

 

Thank you so much, I felt my response was a bit rambling, I was not thinking very clearly, I rarely do think clearly now, but do my best.  I am learning a great deal too, learning things I would have preferred not to learn.  I had a very naive view of the world in many ways before benzo withdrawal. I was always a very trusting person, I am not that person any more, and it is quite sad.

 

Take care

 

Fiona 

[[Ph...]]

Fiona, thank you for your insightful, sincere reply to my post.  I've read it several times to extract as much meaning as I can.  I've learned from it.  You're a resource and a lovely person.  When it comes time for us all to heal, you should be near the front of the line.

 

I'm trying to learn more about language.  How it mutates and evolves.  How words and phrases become fashionable, how they come and go.  How we signal, test, comfort or attack each other with a word or phrase.  How a word can be abducted from the past and twisted into an entirely new meaning in the present.  The process of a word becoming taboo.  Or simply invented.

 

That's all.  I've been curious (okay, maybe a little suspicious) lately about the increasing use of "passive aggressive" in some of these contexts.

 

I understand this better now.  Again, my sincere thanks!

 

Thank you so much, I felt my response was a bit rambling, I was not thinking very clearly, I rarely do think clearly now, but do my best.  I am learning a great deal too, learning things I would have preferred not to learn.  I had a very naive view of the world in many ways before benzo withdrawal. I was always a very trusting person, I am not that person any more, and it is quite sad.

 

Take care

 

Fiona 

 

Fiona writes:  "I had a very naive view of the world in many ways before benzo withdrawal. I was always a very trusting person, I am not that person any more, and it is quite sad."

 

The ability to see the world clearly, despite the sadness that it can bring, should be celebrated.  There's nothing worse than walking around in a bubble of delusion...that trick of the mind that brings us false comfort.  What a waste of life!  Your transition was a jail break, Fiona.  A birth.

[[lo...]]

 

Fiona writes:  "I had a very naive view of the world in many ways before benzo withdrawal. I was always a very trusting person, I am not that person any more, and it is quite sad."

 

The ability to see the world clearly, despite the sadness that it can bring, should be celebrated.  There's nothing worse than walking around in a bubble of delusion...that trick of the mind that brings us false comfort.  What a waste of life!  Your transition was a jail break, Fiona.  A birth.

 

I don't feel that it has been a jail break or a birth, not really.  I am just living in a different kind of prison now.  A physical prison (my own home, my bedroom) and also a mental prison.  My brain no longer functions properly so I am very limited in what I can do.  I have to pass the time online ... I wish I could do other things ... but I can't.  I can't enjoy a good book or .. well so many things.  I cannot escape from the harsh realities of life, they are everywhere online. 

 

I also have to live with a deep sense of betrayal which I did not have to live with before.  I also have to live with the fear of ever needing medical help again because I would not want any doctor to touch me or medicate me.  I have to live with the fear of needing nursing home care where psychotropic drugs are heavily used.  I did not have these fears before.  I have to live with seeing people as they really are, people I thought cared about me but they don't. 

 

No, not a birth, not at all.  I am sad to say. 

 

Which prison was worse? 

 

But I do have greater understanding of my own life and why I became ill.  I understand more about the effects of the drugs.

[[Fl...]]

I don't feel that it has been a jail break or a birth, not really.  I am just living in a different kind of prison now.  A physical prison (my own home, my bedroom) and also a mental prison.  My brain no longer functions properly so I am very limited in what I can do.  I have to pass the time online ... I wish I could do other things ... but I can't.  I can't enjoy a good book or .. well so many things.  I cannot escape from the harsh realities of life, they are everywhere online. 

 

I also have to live with a deep sense of betrayal which I did not have to live with before.  I also have to live with the fear of ever needing medical help again because I would not want any doctor to touch me or medicate me.  I have to live with the fear of needing nursing home care where psychotropic drugs are heavily used.  I did not have these fears before.  I have to live with seeing people as they really are, people I thought cared about me but they don't. 

 

No, not a birth, not at all.  I am sad to say. 

 

Which prison was worse? 

 

But I do have greater understanding of my own life and why I became ill.  I understand more about the effects of the drugs.

 

This brings up an interesting point. Would you rather be happily delusional or sadly informed? Personally I lean toward the informed side but maybe there is a way to be "happily informed".

 

It sure doesn't feel that way sometimes but the thought of living my life in a bubble is terrifying to me as I have seen the consequences of ignorance. I was blissfully ignorant about the medical profession and look where it got me. And this experience has exposed my pollyannish views of society in general when it comes to compassion and maybe more importantly people's ability to snap out of their bubble when new information is presented.

 

I have always been a rational person who appreciates the truth but I do understand that the truth often hurts and it is important not to let the negative aspects of the truth send us too far down the rabbit hole.

[[lo...]]

I don't feel that it has been a jail break or a birth, not really.  I am just living in a different kind of prison now.  A physical prison (my own home, my bedroom) and also a mental prison.  My brain no longer functions properly so I am very limited in what I can do.  I have to pass the time online ... I wish I could do other things ... but I can't.  I can't enjoy a good book or .. well so many things.  I cannot escape from the harsh realities of life, they are everywhere online. 

 

I also have to live with a deep sense of betrayal which I did not have to live with before.  I also have to live with the fear of ever needing medical help again because I would not want any doctor to touch me or medicate me.  I have to live with the fear of needing nursing home care where psychotropic drugs are heavily used.  I did not have these fears before.  I have to live with seeing people as they really are, people I thought cared about me but they don't. 

 

No, not a birth, not at all.  I am sad to say. 

 

Which prison was worse? 

 

But I do have greater understanding of my own life and why I became ill.  I understand more about the effects of the drugs.

 

This brings up an interesting point. Would you rather be happily delusional or sadly informed? Personally I lean toward the informed side but maybe there is a way to be "happily informed".

 

It sure doesn't feel that way sometimes but the thought of living my life in a bubble is terrifying to me as I have seen the consequences of ignorance. I was blissfully ignorant about the medical profession and look where it got me. And this experience has exposed my pollyannish views of society in general when it comes to compassion and maybe more importantly people's ability to snap out of their bubble when new information is presented.

 

I have always been a rational person who appreciates the truth but I do understand that the truth often hurts and it is important not to let the negative aspects of the truth send us too far down the rabbit hole.

 

I think people can be "happily informed" .. but they may never have actually experienced the betrayal of trust on a personal level.  I wasn't really so naive about the world as perhaps I have suggested.  I knew that doctors would lie but it is very different when your own doctor sits opposite you and is clearly lying to you.

 

I knew about the medical profession at one level.  I studied it for many years, I wrote a PhD thesis on the subject, but was unsuccessful in obtaining my doctorate (long story).  I had given evidence in court against two former colleagues, orthopaedic surgeons, after being threatened by one of them (Professor) to keep quiet.  I realised how terribly ignorant they could be when I worked with them.  I am not sure why I did not translate all this knowledge into my own dealings with the medical profession as a patient.  Was it because I was drugged?  I am not sure.  I think it is very complicated.  They had never given me reason to mistrust them before .. not my own doctors. 

 

On balance, it might have been better for me to stay on the drugs and carry on being slightly deluded.  But one cannot turn the clock back and I am where I am ...  much wiser, but very much sadder ...  with more fears for the future. 

 

If my health was somewhat better I think I might have a chance of putting it behind me, but my health is so badly damaged, I am not sure that I can.  Time will tell.

[[ni...]]

I have found this site more tolerable than the Alzheimers.org site I used to go to. I just left after being attacked by someone. I didn't need that in my life. It's disheartening when we really need support and understanding. I'm just careful what I say on here and try to re-read several times what I write, to make sure I don't confuse the sox off of those who read my posts. If I am very tired/foggy it takes a lot of re-writing what I said to make sense of out it.

Of course we all want to be informed, but there's a difference between that and attacking what a person says.

I always treat people the way I want to be treated.

[[lo...]]

I have found this site more tolerable than the Alzheimers.org site I used to go to. I just left after being attacked by someone. I didn't need that in my life. It's disheartening when we really need support and understanding. I'm just careful what I say on here and try to re-read several times what I write, to make sure I don't confuse the sox off of those who read my posts. If I am very tired/foggy it takes a lot of re-writing what I said to make sense of out it.

Of course we all want to be informed, but there's a difference between that and attacking what a person says.

I always treat people the way I want to be treated.

 

I am sorry you have been attacked .. it is very unpleasant, I know.  I have been very fortunate and it has not happened to me very often and i have been around these groups for quite some time now.  For the most part it is absolutely fine.

[[Aj...]]

Just some general thoughts -

 

1. Some people are just not very nice for whatever reason.

2. People in withdrawal are likely to be more extreme in what they are feeling because of fear, rage etc?

3. Passive-agression is really just aggression when it comes down to it.

4. Doctors are often not very nice people. They are also, as junior doctors, literally de-humanised in much the same way trainee soldiers are. They also have a lot of power and, therefore, a lot to lose.

 

[[lo...]]

Just some general thoughts -

 

1. Some people are just not very nice for whatever reason.

2. People in withdrawal are likely to be more extreme in what they are feeling because of fear, rage etc?

3. Passive-agression is really just aggression when it comes down to it.

4. Doctors are often not very nice people. They are also, as junior doctors, literally de-humanised in much the same way trainee soldiers are. They also have a lot of power and, therefore, a lot to lose.

 

Yes would agree with all that.

[[ni...]]

lookingforward, indeed for the most part it is absolutely fine. Without this site, I may have never gotten off of clonazepam.

Life is a challenge and so are some people. I've learned to not waste energy on things that ultimately don't matter down the road.

I have an Alzheimer's support group I go to once a month near where I live. Everyone is supportive. The downside, is there are some months I can't make it plus the group has doubled in size, so what we say is limited. The online site, like this one, allows us to say so much more without a time limit.

As Ajusta said, some people are just not nice for whatever reason.

[[lo...]]

lookingforward, indeed for the most part it is absolutely fine. Without this site, I may have never gotten off of clonazepam.

Life is a challenge and so are some people. I've learned to not waste energy on things that ultimately don't matter down the road.

I have an Alzheimer's support group I go to once a month near where I live. Everyone is supportive. The downside, is there are some months I can't make it plus the group has doubled in size, so what we say is limited. The online site, like this one, allows us to say so much more without a time limit.

As Ajusta said, some people are just not nice for whatever reason.

 

I am glad you have a support group near where you live but it is a pity it has grown so large.  I try not to let people get to me but sometimes they just do.  :crazy: :crazy:  But it isn't worth it.

[[ni...]]

lookingforward, it is difficult to not let negative things that are said to us, get to us. Initially it does, then I tell myself to let it go. My uncle's favorite saying was: If it is not going to matter a year from now, then let it go.

Most things that happen won't matter in a year, but some things will. Life can be complicated. 

[[lo...]]

lookingforward, it is difficult to not let negative things that are said to us, get to us. Initially it does, then I tell myself to let it go. My uncle's favorite saying was: If it is not going to matter a year from now, then let it go.

Most things that happen won't matter in a year, but some things will. Life can be complicated.

 

:thumbsup:

[[Fl...]]

3. Passive-agression is really just aggression when it comes down to it.

 

It's worse than aggression because at least "active" aggression is honest. Passive-aggressive people are cowards.

[[lo...]]

3. Passive-agression is really just aggression when it comes down to it.

 

It's worse than aggression because at least "active" aggression is honest. Passive-aggressive people are cowards.

 

That describes my doctors .. COWARDS!!  :D

[[Aj...]]

But even if it is ‘passive’ you still feel it as aggression because it is....

 

 

[Guest [Sk...]]

lookingforward, it is difficult to not let negative things that are said to us, get to us. Initially it does, then I tell myself to let it go. My uncle's favorite saying was: If it is not going to matter a year from now, then let it go.

Most things that happen won't matter in a year, but some things will. Life can be complicated.

 

  Plus many people  are at different stages ( an ages too)  of the withdrawal journey

and have no comprehension of the drama that plays out

down the track

and hence cant have compassion about things they cant envisage.  :'(

and the pain  or discomfort of others

 

also many have no concept of the differences

we all have, and expect others to think like them also.  :'(

Many cant put themselves in others shoes, and are fixed in their own  opinions too  :'(

with minimal sensitivities to others differences often.

 

we are all very  different,  some intellectual, some emotional and sensitive often,

and all at different stages of this journey too.

we have to find our own way often and dont need further aggression of lack of tolerance 

 

I find it easier to ignore the controllers, or the bears that growl and argue,

 

( one of my favorite sayings

is dont poke the grizzly bears just gives them a target to attack more)  :'( :'( :'( 

 

and they do over and over again, I have seen.  So I stay away from those threads mostly.