What do y’all do for a living?

[[Ph...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Same here. I didn't finish college but in the year I was there I took a sociology class and absolutely loved it. Before I got sick I also put a lot of time into studying and discussing relationships and sexuality. I was fascinated by the way men and women interact and how the compulsion to perpetuate the species controls or influences pretty much everything we do.

 

Monkeys, indeed.

 

"...how the compulsion to perpetuate the species controls or influences pretty much everything we do."

 

You hit the nail right on the head there, FG!  It's the prime directive.

 

[[Ma...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Same here. I didn't finish college but in the year I was there I took a sociology class and absolutely loved it. Before I got sick I also put a lot of time into studying and discussing relationships and sexuality. I was fascinated by the way men and women interact and how the compulsion to perpetuate the species controls or influences pretty much everything we do.

 

Monkeys, indeed.

 

this helps selling things! Not a joke..

[[Fl...]]

this helps selling things! Not a joke..

 

That might be why I also enjoy sales and marketing. When I owned a retail store I had a great time selling product, creating sales campaigns and producing tv and radio commercials. It all goes back to understanding what motivates people.

 

 

[[Bl...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Now that is one area of schooling that never interested me…the evolutionary theory. My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup.

 

 

[[Ph...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Now that is one area of schooling that never interested me…the evolutionary theory. My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup.

 

BlueRose writes:  "My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup."

 

Freedom of choice is an largely an illusion, a trick.  For example, when you chose to leave religion behind, did you independently choose this in a eureka moment of clarity, or were there influences in your choice?  When asked this question, the vast majority of people would answer "no, this was my choice."  This is because the agents of our choices are operating in brain areas isolated from conscious awareness.  Read here:

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/

 

But, at least in your choice to leave religion behind, you examined options and found others that seemed more rational.  That's to your credit.  You (and the invisible agents of your choice) trumped the most powerful influence we all have...parental imprinting.

 

So you go into a market and choose Crest toothpaste.  Why?  Did you choose this?  Really?  Then you go to the dairy section and choose some probiotic yogurt.  Your choice?  Really?  I could go on and on.  Our choices are not exclusively ours. 

 

[[Gw...]]

Badsocref, I just saw this thread. Congratulations on (semi)-retirement! 

 

I teach GED classes for a nonprofit community agency in the inner city. My classroom is my office, so I'm teaching the first half of the day and doing administrative work in the afternoon like data entry, grant reports, case management. It's been difficult to work while I'm in withdrawal, but I'm on light duty and that's getting me through it day to day. I look forward to having more energy for it once I'm feeling better. I used to teach English for a public high school, but couldn't stand to stay in the field - the system is just too broken. This job was a pay cut well worth it, because it's far more rewarding and human. It's inspiring to see people overcoming so much for a chance to improve their lives, and to know that my work directly helps them accomplish their life goals. It's a lot to carry, but I'd be hard-pressed to trade it for anything.

 

Gwinna

[[Bl...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Now that is one area of schooling that never interested me…the evolutionary theory. My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup.

 

BlueRose writes:  "My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup."

 

Freedom of choice is an largely an illusion, a trick.  For example, when you chose to leave religion behind, did you independently choose this in a eureka moment of clarity, or were there influences in your choice?  When asked this question, the vast majority of people would answer "no, this was my choice."  This is because the agents of our choices are operating in brain areas isolated from conscious awareness.  Read here:

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/

 

But, at least in your choice to leave religion behind, you examined options and found others that seemed more rational.  That's to your credit.  You (and the invisible agents of your choice) trumped the most powerful influence we all have...parental imprinting.

 

So you go into a market and choose Crest toothpaste.  Why?  Did you choose this?  Really?  Then you go to the dairy section and choose some probiotic yogurt.  Your choice?  Really?  I could go on and on.  Our choices are not exclusively ours.

 

I'm not sure you understood my comment as I meant it to be understood. My mother is an atheist and she hoped I would one day think like her.

 

After I had been living on my own for almost four years, I chose to investigate a certain religion. After an in-depth search, I was convinced that I had found the truth.

 

Our difference in beliefs is significant. This difference has been long standing; ever since I began investigating a certain religion ....investigation began 38 years ago this August.

 

I will never change what I believe. And the interesting part of my story is I never believed like her....my mom firmly believes in the evolutionary theory. In all fairness to my mom, I don't recall her ever talking about this subject when I lived with her...the who, what, where, when, and why's of life.

 

I guess you could say I was left to my own devices as I was growing up...and, yes, I made a lot of poor choices as a result. I am still reaping the consequences for many of those poor decisions that I made as I was growing up at home.

 

I hope this clears up what you thought I had said. If not...let me know.

[[Fl...]]

So you go into a market and choose Crest toothpaste.  Why?  Did you choose this?  Really?  Then you go to the dairy section and choose some probiotic yogurt.  Your choice?  Really?  I could go on and on.  Our choices are not exclusively ours.

 

That's kind of like saying "water is wet". The fact that we are influenced to make choices doesn't preclude the freedom to make said choices.

[[Ph...]]

Blue Rose, I can totally relate.  I'm a brains & behavior junkie.  How it all ties into evolution...that sort of stuff.  It can get a little spooky after awhile though...looking into a mirror and seeing just a slightly modified monkey. 

 

Now that is one area of schooling that never interested me…the evolutionary theory. My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup.

 

BlueRose writes:  "My mom who is an atheist is perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did given my two siblings turned out basically believing like her. Just goes to show our freedom to choose is definitely a strong part of our makeup."

 

Freedom of choice is an largely an illusion, a trick.  For example, when you chose to leave religion behind, did you independently choose this in a eureka moment of clarity, or were there influences in your choice?  When asked this question, the vast majority of people would answer "no, this was my choice."  This is because the agents of our choices are operating in brain areas isolated from conscious awareness.  Read here:

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/what-neuroscience-says-about-free-will/

 

But, at least in your choice to leave religion behind, you examined options and found others that seemed more rational.  That's to your credit.  You (and the invisible agents of your choice) trumped the most powerful influence we all have...parental imprinting.

 

So you go into a market and choose Crest toothpaste.  Why?  Did you choose this?  Really?  Then you go to the dairy section and choose some probiotic yogurt.  Your choice?  Really?  I could go on and on.  Our choices are not exclusively ours.

 

I'm not sure you understood my comment as I meant it to be understood. My mother is an atheist and she hoped I would one day think like her.

 

After I had been living on my own for almost four years, I chose to investigate a certain religion. After an in-depth search, I was convinced that I had found the truth.

 

Our difference in beliefs is significant. This difference has been long standing; ever since I began investigating a certain religion ....investigation began 38 years ago this August.

 

I will never change what I believe. And the interesting part of my story is I never believed like her....my mom firmly believes in the evolutionary theory. In all fairness to my mom, I don't recall her ever talking about this subject when I lived with her...the who, what, where, when, and why's of life.

 

I guess you could say I was left to my own devices as I was growing up...and, yes, I made a lot of poor choices as a result. I am still reaping the consequences for many of those poor decisions that I made as I was growing up at home.

 

I hope this clears up what you thought I had said. If not...let me know.

 

Yes, it does, thank you.

[[Aj...]]

Before I got too ill to work in 1996 I worked at local university in the theatre & was planning to do a Ph.D.

 

For 10 years while I’ll I did some voluntary work for Rape Crisis when I was well enough.

[[Ph...]]

So you go into a market and choose Crest toothpaste.  Why?  Did you choose this?  Really?  Then you go to the dairy section and choose some probiotic yogurt.  Your choice?  Really?  I could go on and on.  Our choices are not exclusively ours.

 

That's kind of like saying "water is wet". The fact that we are influenced to make choices doesn't preclude the freedom to make said choices.

 

Of course it does.  When you arrive at the toothpaste isle, you're already looking for your new tube of Crest toothpaste.  You see the tags sticking out in front of other brands of toothpaste (some selling for less), but you zero in on Crest, grab one and throw it into your cart.  You really think you made an independent choice to do this?  Your choice was made even before you walked into the store.  And not by "you."  To a surprising extent, when it comes to decisions, there is no you.  Or me, for that matter.  Or anyone.

 

But there are other kinds of shoppers in the store as well, fumbling with coupons they cut out of newspapers.  Zeroing in on toothpaste brands that might be on sale.  Driving from one store to another.  The time and gasoline it took - the opportunity cost, if you will - is not part of their decision-making matrix.  Just like the Crest buyer, they are also operating with a background program not of their own making.

 

All big-budget marketing and advertising is based on these ideas.  They've known for many decades that people are largely automatons.  There is much less freedom than you think.

[[Aj...]]

Have you seen Adam Curtis’ series ‘The Trap’?

 

You might enjoy it.

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1

[[Es...]]

The thread about making money turned into a thread about free will. How much free will did the participants have in deciding what direction that thread would take? I believe in both the determinism and in libertarianism. Nothing is either black or white. The color is always rather gray. This is what I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Fl...]]

Of course it does.  When you arrive at the toothpaste isle, you're already looking for your new tube of Crest toothpaste.  You see the tags sticking out in front of other brands of toothpaste (some selling for less), but you zero in on Crest, grab one and throw it into your cart.  You really think you made an independent choice to do this?  Your choice was made even before you walked into the store.  And not by "you."  To a surprising extent, when it comes to decisions, there is no you.  Or me, for that matter.  Or anyone.

 

But there are other kinds of shoppers in the store as well, fumbling with coupons they cut out of newspapers.  Zeroing in on toothpaste brands that might be on sale.  Driving from one store to another.  The time and gasoline it took - the opportunity cost, if you will - is not part of their decision-making matrix.  Just like the Crest buyer, they are also operating with a background program not of their own making.

 

All big-budget marketing and advertising is based on these ideas.  They've known for many decades that people are largely automatons.  There is much less freedom than you think.

 

This sounds like a bunch of postmodern nonsense to me.

 

Who exactly is controlling everyone's choices? We are all being marketed to from the moment we wake up until we go to sleep. A homeless person on the street corner with a sign is marketing to us. That doesn't mean that someone else makes our choices for us, it just means that our choices are always subject to outside influence. Even if our choices were 100% controlled by someone else, there are many "someones" competing for our attention and if you are arguing that humans do not use their rational brain to make informed choices, you are living on a different plane than I am.

 

If what you are saying is true, life is pretty much pointless. If some person, corporation or higher power is pulling all of our strings there is no point in even trying.

[[Ph...]]

Have you seen Adam Curtis’ series ‘The Trap’?

 

You might enjoy it.

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1

 

Thanks, Ajusta.  I'll watch this when I have more time.  Looks interesting.

[[Ph...]]

Of course it does.  When you arrive at the toothpaste isle, you're already looking for your new tube of Crest toothpaste.  You see the tags sticking out in front of other brands of toothpaste (some selling for less), but you zero in on Crest, grab one and throw it into your cart.  You really think you made an independent choice to do this?  Your choice was made even before you walked into the store.  And not by "you."  To a surprising extent, when it comes to decisions, there is no you.  Or me, for that matter.  Or anyone.

 

But there are other kinds of shoppers in the store as well, fumbling with coupons they cut out of newspapers.  Zeroing in on toothpaste brands that might be on sale.  Driving from one store to another.  The time and gasoline it took - the opportunity cost, if you will - is not part of their decision-making matrix.  Just like the Crest buyer, they are also operating with a background program not of their own making.

 

All big-budget marketing and advertising is based on these ideas.  They've known for many decades that people are largely automatons.  There is much less freedom than you think.

 

This sounds like a bunch of postmodern nonsense to me.

 

Who exactly is controlling everyone's choices? We are all being marketed to from the moment we wake up until we go to sleep. A homeless person on the street corner with a sign is marketing to us. That doesn't mean that someone else makes our choices for us, it just means that our choices are always subject to outside influence. Even if our choices were 100% controlled by someone else, there are many "someones" competing for our attention and if you are arguing that humans do not use their rational brain to make informed choices, you are living on a different plane than I am.

 

If what you are saying is true, life is pretty much pointless. If some person, corporation or higher power is pulling all of our strings there is no point in even trying.

 

FG writes:  "If what you are saying is true, life is pretty much pointless."

 

Not at all, FG.  If you take the blue pill and remain unaware of the programs in your head that are running in the background, life will seem rich and full of choices and decisions.  But if you take the red pill and become more aware of these programs, things can become fascinating...like lifting the lid off a complex piece of machinery, watching the gears and levers moving and marveling at how it really works.  (Sorry about the blue and red pill meme, but it seems to fit in this case.)  But yeah, so far we're living in two different planes, as you say.

 

I'm feeling a little guilty right now about hijacking this thread.  I didn't decide to feel guilty, though.  It just happened, sort of automatically.  Something down there in the rabbit hole...some pesky "right and wrong" stuff down there acting up again...

[[Ph...]]

Have you seen Adam Curtis’ series ‘The Trap’?

 

You might enjoy it.

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1

 

Wow, Ajusta, why don't we all know about Rosenhan's "Thud Experiment?"  Amazing.  Start at 37 minutes in the video.

[[Aj...]]

Indeed! It’s not mentioned in any of my psych textbooks.

 

If you are enjoying The Trap you could try ‘Century of Self’ next

 

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

 

In fact that might be the one that deals more with the advent of focus groups and advertising. Been a while since a I watched them all.

 

In fact all of Curtis’ stuff is worth a look. Very polemical but informative and fun.

[[Ha...]]

Indeed! It’s not mentioned in any of my psych textbooks.

 

If you are enjoying The Trap you could try ‘Century of Self’ next

 

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

 

In fact that might be the one that deals more with the advent of focus groups and advertising. Been a while since a I watched them all.

 

In fact all of Curtis’ stuff is worth a look. Very polemical but informative and fun.

Hi Ajusta, The Trap was fascinating viewing, but terrifying at the same time! I wonder how "factually" based it was? I'm hoping it was based loosely on real events, but somewhat skewed to achieve dramatic entertainment?  "Thud" indeed! This part I tend to think may have been real. I loved the way he lied about sending in more sane candidates! It is seriously creepy yet perversely entertaining (that's if you're not part to the experiments). Thanks for sharing  Harmonee

[[Es...]]

Have you seen Adam Curtis’ series ‘The Trap’?

 

You might enjoy it.

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1

 

Just wanted to point out that Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic. Of course he was smart enough to prove any "theory" he needed to prove. Sorry Ajusta, but this Adam Curtis has upset me so much with trying to sell people his vision of "reality". One fallacy after another. I’m beyond words. This was certainly controversial. I think it’s all just a bunch of dangerous nonsense. I cannot believe people gave it 8.7 stars out of 10 here. One can talk people into anything one wants by a skilful use of false arguments. Mental illness is not an illusion. And I will not comment any more on the subject.

[[Ca...]]

I am a full time single parent.. And I guess I grow trees.. -well it happens..

 

My choice to join the hijack a little..??

I wonder how my choices differed by growing up so remote, predominantly outside of society, in its social and governing aspects atleast..

Once moving into society I have often felt trapped, forced to conform, often with limited choice...

-Used for a greater purpose.. Socialism or capitalism..??

Half man, half ant..??

 

[[Aj...]]

Have you seen Adam Curtis’ series ‘The Trap’?

 

You might enjoy it.

 

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1

 

Just wanted to point out that Nash was a paranoid schizophrenic. Of course he was smart enough to prove any "theory" he needed to prove. Sorry Ajusta, but this Adam Curtis has upset me so much with trying to sell people his vision of "reality". One fallacy after another. I’m beyond words. This was certainly controversial. I think it’s all just a bunch of dangerous nonsense. I cannot believe people gave it 8.7 stars out of 10 here. One can talk people into anything one wants by a skilful use of false arguments. Mental illness is not an illusion. And I will not comment any more on the subject.

 

Yes, he’s a polemicist...

[[fr...]]

BUMP