American healthcare system

[Guest [mu...]]

It's not a justification though - this is solid research which indicates that overweight (but not morbidly obese) people generally do live longer than those of "normal" weight. It's complicated of course, as these things always are, but it does appear that being overweight poses no significant threat to one's longevity, and may even increase it. As those of us here know all too well, there are lots of "widely agreed upon" health opinions that simply aren't true in light of actual evidence.

 

"[The] analysis included all prospective studies that assessed all-cause mortality using standard BMI categories — 97 studies in total. All the studies used standard statistical adjustments to account for the effects of smoking, age and sex. When the data from all adult age groups were combined, people whose BMIs were in the overweight range (between 25 and 29.9) showed the lowest mortality rates."

 

From: http://www.nature.com/news/the-big-fat-truth-1.13039

 

Also see: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1555137

And: http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-10-9

And: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2520627

 

And here are some articles that explains where this myth came from and the complexity involved in interpreting such research:

 

This is old, but good: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/obesity_epidemic_or_myth

And this: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-being-overweight-means-you-live-longer-the-way-scientists-twist-the-facts-10158229.html

 

As for your second point: I'm not so sure that humans are attracted to thinner people as a rule. Healthy, symmetrical, and fertile, yes, but it is only in the most recent centuries that health has been strictly correlated with weight (at least in the U.S.). Surely you've read about the preference for larger bodies in traditional cultures around the world and historically in the west? Or how Moroccan brides will go to great lengths to fatten themselves up in preparation for marriage? This seems unusual to us now, but in many cultures larger bodies were (and still sometimes are) seen as a sign of good health and high social status, whereas thin people were seen as poor and unattractive. Interestingly pale vs. tan skin was once regarded in the same way. In any case, "human nature" clearly has little to do with our current preconceptions about weight.

 

 

Edit: added more links!

[[wa...]]

Thanks Mutur for the information.  It is better to formulate opinions after reading up on reliable research and not some knee-jerk position.  WBB

[[pr...]]

It's not a justification though - this is solid research which indicates that overweight (but not morbidly obese) people generally do live longer than those of "normal" weight. It's complicated of course, as these things always are, but it does appear that being overweight poses no significant threat to one's longevity, and may even increase it. As those of us here know all too well, there are lots of "widely agreed upon" health opinions that simply aren't true in light of actual evidence.

 

This was the latest study on the matter: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2520627

 

And here's an article that explains where this myth came from and the complexity involved in interpreting such research:

 

http://www.nature.com/news/the-big-fat-truth-1.13039

 

"[The] analysis included all prospective studies that assessed all-cause mortality using standard BMI categories — 97 studies in total. All the studies used standard statistical adjustments to account for the effects of smoking, age and sex. When the data from all adult age groups were combined, people whose BMIs were in the overweight range (between 25 and 29.9) showed the lowest mortality rates."

 

As for your second point: I'm not so sure that humans are attracted to thinner people as a rule. Healthy, symmetrical, and fertile, yes, but it is only in the most recent centuries that health has been strictly correlated with weight (at least in the U.S.). Surely you've read about the preference for larger bodies in traditional cultures around the world and historically in the west? Or how Moroccan brides will go to great lengths to fatten themselves up in preparation for marriage? This seems unusual to us now, but in many cultures larger bodies were (and still sometimes are) seen as a sign of good health and high social status, whereas thin people were seen as poor and unattractive. Interestingly pale vs. tan skin was once regarded in the same way. In any case, "human nature" clearly has little to do with our current preconceptions about weight.

 

 

you two realize that you have both had this exact same debate on a thread in the protracted section at one time, remember?

[Guest [Le...]]

you two realize that you have both had this exact same debate on a thread in the protracted section at one time, remember?

 

I was thinking the same thing! 

[[...]]

you two realize that you have both had this exact same debate on a thread in the protracted section at one time, remember?

 

I was thinking the same thing! 

 

Me three!  :laugh:

Geez, gotta love us protracted, the great debaters ... all our threads taking off into the unknown ... always so much fun for me to watch. 

[[wa...]]

you two realize that you have both had this exact same debate on a thread in the protracted section at one time, remember?

 

I was thinking the same thing! 

 

Me three!  :laugh:

Geez, gotta love us protracted, the great debaters ... all our threads taking off into the unknown ... always so much fun for me to watch. 

 

Yay OK well, then here on topic -  I get the benefit.  WBB

[[bu...]]

 

 

Interestingly, a recent meta-analysis demonstrated that those who are overweight (but not morbidly obese) actually live <i>longer</i> than their normal and underweight BMI counterparts. There was even research on Italian women that showed a BMI of 33 (which is technically obese) was associated with the longest life expectancy.

 

 

 

Could you share  link, or other documentation, to the source of that analysis?

[[be...]]

A couple of things I suspect:

 

Defensive medicine (possibly related to liability), excessive diagnostic procedures, prescribing too many drugs (also a matter of consumerism?, marketing?, expectations, drugs are needed to combat the side effects of drugs).

Too many invasive medical procedures ('just to be sure').

 

Infections in hospitals.

 

If there is an abundance of money, healthcare will be expensive. Many people on psychiatric drugs. Bad for your health in most cases.

 

Unhealthy lifestyles. Many people in poverty, excessive obesity, high stress in a competitive society.

Lack of social/economic stability for many people.

 

Not just the healthcare system I suspect 

 

I gotta agree with this post. It reminds me that we spent a lot of money, ppe, yet we are sorely behind in basic education.

[[Fl...]]

I don't have time to dive into specifics on this but I will say that it saddens me that this fat acceptance movement has gained so much traction in recent years. If you really believe that it is better for your overall health to be overweight (and I am not just talking about death) and that there is no biological basis for humans to "discriminate" based on body size, then knock yourself out.

 

I'm not a thin person myself but I fully realize that carrying extra weight will very likely have negative consequences for my health. It's just sad that some people have no problem promoting this propaganda. I wonder how many people out there are unhealthy and unhappy because they are constantly bombarded with this conflicting message. Sad. Very sad.

[[Be...]]

I never cared if the guy I was dating had a few extra pounds on him.  I was never attracted to a thin guy and definitely not one who was obese.  I think most men like women who are voluptuous and not necessarily fat or too thin.  Voluptuousness is a sign of fertility:  having a shapely figure with  breasts and hips.  It's been known in the research that women who carry abdominal fat are more at risk of heart attacks while those women who had large hips and rearends weren't.   

[[pr...]]

in Auyermedic medicine they have this thing called "Doshas" and Pitta's and definitely Kapha Doshas are generally a little more over weight than Vatta's and that is what is considered healthy for these types of people/Doshas and i think people that don't understand those different kinds of  eastern medicines would probably think that these more heavier people are not as healthy when that's not the case at all. i don't think anyone can know if a person is healthy or not by just their weight. i think many other things have to be considered and taken into account -- you just never know.

[[...]]

Well, really on topic now.  I wanted to get back to this interesting post ...

 

Life expectancy is a function of many things - diet, exercise, lifestyle - and is therefore a poor metric for measuring the quality of healthcare. A more direct measure of healthcare would be to compare survival rates of people diagnosed with specific diseases. By this measure, U.S. comes out on top. For example see https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/research/articles/concord-2.htm

 

You’re absolutely right that life expectancy is more complicated than merely looking at our quality of health care.

 

However, the only disease categories in which the U.S. has better health outcomes are in treating a few cancers (mostly breast and prostate, but I’ll discuss this more below) - for all other diseases our treatment outcomes are actually poorer than those in other developed countries. More concerning still, for the first time in decades American life expectancy is actually dropping.

 

While aggressive screening practices in the U.S. have enabled us to catch some cancers sooner (which improves our survival statistics, as patients whose cancers are identified in the early stages are much more likely to still be alive after 5 years, even if the rate of overall cancer mortality is the same), it also catches more non-invasive, “stage 0 cancers.” Unlikely to ever metastasize or even become symptomatic, these non-invasive cancers boast a 100% 5 year survival rate. Identifying and treating non-invasive cancers (which never needed identification or treatment in the first place) is a distinctly American phenomenon, and has largely skewed the data in favor of the U.S. “winning the war” on cancer.

 

Here are some interesting articles about cancer statistics, if you want to check them out:

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cancer-rates-and-unjustified-conclusions/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/magazine/our-feel-good-war-on-breast-cancer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

 

I agree, I don't see anything terribly spectacular in terms of the U.S. coming out "on top" - for all the provisos outlined by Mutuuraia.  However, I do think there could be some very valuable lessons to be learned from this study.  Particularly concerning cancers with very poor prognoses.

 

For instance, regarding lung cancer ...

 

"For patients diagnosed during 2005–09, 5-year survival from lung cancer was higher than 20% in only three countries: Japan (30%), Israel (24%), and Mauritius (37%). The survival estimate for Mauritius is based on only 84 cases "

 

Canada                  17.3

France                    13.6

Germany                  16.2

Italy                        14.7

Japan                      30.1

United Kingdom        9.6

United States          18.7

 

The difference between Japan & Mauritius and the UK is striking!  Well worth deeper investigation, I'd say.  I'd be especially interested to know all the details surrounding chemo and/or radiation treatment, what positive or negative impact that may have had on the outcomes. 

 

And wondering how many of the UK victims were fat?  Juuusst kidding!   

[Guest [mu...]]

you two realize that you have both had this exact same debate on a thread in the protracted section at one time, remember?

 

I was thinking the same thing! 

 

Me three!  :laugh:

Geez, gotta love us protracted, the great debaters ... all our threads taking off into the unknown ... always so much fun for me to watch. 

 

I know! Which is why I was annoyed to see the same myths and memes propagated again. I don’t know why I bother. No that’s a lie, I know exactly why I bother: I love researching, writing, and debating, even though it always ramps up my symptoms to do so. I’m also very passionate about dispelling myths about health, the body, and the medical / pharmaceutical industrial complex, especially in this post truth, "feelings over facts" era. Like so many here, I have benzo withdrawal to thank for this.

 

Could you share  link, or other documentation, to the source of that analysis?

 

Builder: I shared a couple of links in my post on the previous page. There are of course many studies and entire books on this topic, but those links should get you started.

 

[Guest [mu...]]

I don't have time to dive into specifics on this but I will say that it saddens me that this fat acceptance movement has gained so much traction in recent years. If you really believe that it is better for your overall health to be overweight (and I am not just talking about death) and that there is no biological basis for humans to "discriminate" based on body size, then knock yourself out.

 

I'm not a thin person myself but I fully realize that carrying extra weight will very likely have negative consequences for my health. It's just sad that some people have no problem promoting this propaganda. I wonder how many people out there are unhealthy and unhappy because they are constantly bombarded with this conflicting message. Sad. Very sad.

 

The body positivity movement is about self-acceptance and health <i>at any size</i>. Call me crazy, but no, I don’t think that increasing feelings of acceptance and worthiness in a group of human beings who have been collectively shamed and ridiculed is going to cause them to be <i>less</i> happy and healthy. Depressed, stressed out, shamed and alienated people who have been taught to fear and hate their bodies (or feel less worthy than others) are rarely “inspired” to start taking better care of themselves. <i>That</i> is what is truly sad and tragic. You don’t have to feel attracted to fat people any more than you have to feel attracted to skinny people (or bodybuilders, or short people, or redheads, etc). This movement is simply asking that we treat larger body types with the respect, dignity, and rights that all human beings should be afforded. That’s it.

 

[Guest [mu...]]

in Auyermedic medicine they have this thing called "Doshas" and Pitta's and definitely Kapha Doshas are generally a little more over weight than Vatta's and that is what is considered healthy for these types of people/Doshas and i think people that don't understand those different kinds of  eastern medicines would probably think that these more heavier people are not as healthy when that's not the case at all. i don't think anyone can know if a person is healthy or not by just their weight. i think many other things have to be considered and taken into account -- you just never know.

 

Exactly, Pretty. There really is no evidence to suggest that weight <i>alone</i> is what makes a person unhealthy (again, barring extremes in either direction). Some people are bigger or smaller than others as their natural constitution and genetic makeup - there is nothing inherently unhealthy about this. For those who gain or lose weight due to systemic imbalances, lifestyle factors, or sickness, the weight itself is merely a <i>symptom</i> of poor health, not the <i>cause</i> of it. This may seem like a trivial distinction, but it’s very important for people to understand that weight alone is not an indicator of health. If you are thin but eat poorly and don’t exercise, you are not likely to be as healthy as someone who eats well and exercises, even if that person is overweight. Thanks to actual scientific research, the double standard around unhealthy skinny people is seen for the fallacy that it is. Your weight, as it turns out, is not the consistent marker of health that we were all led to believe it was.

 

This is a significant distinction to make, as research has shown just how detrimental that extreme dieting practices, weight loss supplements, and risky weight-loss medical procedures can be for our health and our waistlines. When size alone is seen as the main marker of health, people will go to unsafe and unsustainable lengths to lose weight, which almost always backfires and cause even more health problems and weight gain in the end (a problem that the 20 billion a year weight-loss industry has no issue with, of course). By focusing instead on the actual science, nutrition and exercise are rightfully viewed as more important than your physical size, and any health risks that increase with your waistline (up to a point, obviously) are offset by moving more and eating better, even if your weight never budges (because sometimes it doesn’t, especially for older people).

 

And yeah, I suppose this is getting off-topic, although this thread is about U.S. health care, and the obesity epidemic is a big part of that. But as a side note (and I know I’ve mentioned this before), I believe that prescription drugs are playing a large role in the growing obesity and diabetes rates in this country. To use myself as an example: I was fit and athletic with an ideal body (no really, it was kind of ridiculous) before benzo withdrawal hit me, after which I gained a ton of weight, mostly over a very short period of time (and despite being too sick to keep much food down for the first couple of months). The entire time I was on benzos, the damage to my body and mind was invisible, unknown even to myself. In other words, I looked very, very healthy, and no one would have guessed otherwise. It wasn't until I came off benzos that my true state of health was revealed. There are many people in similar situations out there, people who are thin and fit but actually very sick, and conversely people who are fat but actually quite healthy. You can't tell who is healthy and who isn't by looking at someone's dress size. You just can't. It's time we stopped perpetuating this myth.

 

And more, and more, and more…. etc, etc. My complexity-loving mind is competing with my damaged brain, and we all know who wins that game. Time’s up.)

 

[[Fl...]]

It would be one thing if this acceptance thing was by and for people who have legitimate medical conditions, but the reality is that it is mainly an excuse for people to follow unhealthy lifestyle choices. And of course it helps if you can delude everyone else into ignoring reality as well, and that is why this has become a "thing" in recent years.

 

I realize that there are people here who are suffering from health related weight loss/gain so naturally there is going to be more of a knee jerk reaction to subjects like this, but I encourage everyone to ask themselves who it is that is really behind promoting these unhealthy lifestyle choices and whether or not they truly have other people's health and happiness in mind. If you dig a little deeper you might realize that it is more about justifying unhealthy behavior and less about making people happier with themselves.

 

Call me crazy, but no, I don’t think that increasing feelings of acceptance and worthiness in a group of human beings who have been collectively shamed and ridiculed is going to cause them to be <i>less</i> happy and healthy.

 

This is where the biology stuff comes in. Convincing people to be happy with themselves no matter what is all good and fine on paper but when the rubber meets the road and people are faced with the harsh reality that no amount of campaigning will ever change the fact that people of a healthy weight will get better jobs and attract a higher quality mate etc, all you are doing is setting them up for a future of unhappiness.

 

In other words, at the end of the day reality rules. You can ignore and pretend and try to legislate it away but in the end, nature wins.

[Guest [mu...]]

Okay FG, I can see that I'm not likely to convince you that this movement is actually a good thing. That's fine, I still like you anyway.

 

If anyone is genuinely interested in learning about how shaming fat people actually makes them fatter, or how the HAES movement has demonstrably increased both health and happiness in overweight and obese populations, the following study and article are pretty convincing:

 

http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-10-9

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070048

 

xo

 

[[pr...]]

I was fit and athletic with an ideal body (no really, it was kind of ridiculous) before benzo withdrawal hit me, after which I gained a ton of weight, mostly over a very short period of time (and despite being too sick to keep much food down for the first couple of months). The entire time I was on benzos, the damage to my body and mind was invisible, unknown even to myself. In other words, I looked very, very healthy, and no one would have guessed otherwise. It wasn't until I came off benzos that my true state of health was revealed. There are many people in similar situations out there, people who are thin and fit but actually very sick, and conversely people who are fat but actually quite healthy. You can't tell who is healthy and who isn't by looking at someone's dress size. You just can't. It's time we stopped perpetuating this myth.

 

 

last thing i will say on this subject is i can't wait to gain back my weight. i have never felt so unhealthy and emaciated in my life and with the fact that losing all this weight in such an extreme fashion has also helped me to lose all those beautifying sex and other feel good hormones. and anyone looking at me would either say "she's too thin - she's unhealthy" or they simply won't notice because i have this invisible illness otherwise, anyway, i can't wait to gain weight and be nice and big and puffy again. it looks way better to me. waaaaaaaay better. brain needs fats and fats on the body too. good loving, healthy fats!

 

okay, back to the real topic at hand.

[[Be...]]

I noticed that when I was overweight, men wouldn't look at me too much and when I lost the weight, I would turn their heads.  I agree with FG,  I don't think men will ever change their desire for a healthy, curvy, non-obese woman and I don't know any women who will choose an obese man over a fit strong man to date.  I see men who are healthy and strong as ones who will work hard to provide for their families.  Healthy fit people will make me take notice since they have vitality, and obese people I see as being unhealthy.  There's vitality to a fit person which is attractive to both sexes.  I think most people who overeat do so to soothe their inner emotional turmoil.  I know I did.  So subconciously a man or woman who is obese might pick up on that in the other person and see that they have "baggage" which will be brought into the relationship and which may not lead to good sexual relations.  I think we're all genetically programmed to produce offspring and anything that might reduce that chance, such as being obese, would not be a desirable trait in a person.  We certainly shouldn't shame obese people, but help them to lose their weight through positive encouragement.

 

 

[[Ch...]]

It would be one thing if this acceptance thing was by and for people who have legitimate medical conditions, but the reality is that it is mainly an excuse for people to follow unhealthy lifestyle choices. And of course it helps if you can delude everyone else into ignoring reality as well, and that is why this has become a "thing" in recent years.

 

I realize that there are people here who are suffering from health related weight loss/gain so naturally there is going to be more of a knee jerk reaction to subjects like this, but I encourage everyone to ask themselves who it is that is really behind promoting these unhealthy lifestyle choices and whether or not they truly have other people's health and happiness in mind. If you dig a little deeper you might realize that it is more about justifying unhealthy behavior and less about making people happier with themselves.

 

Call me crazy, but no, I don’t think that increasing feelings of acceptance and worthiness in a group of human beings who have been collectively shamed and ridiculed is going to cause them to be <i>less</i> happy and healthy.

 

This is where the biology stuff comes in. Convincing people to be happy with themselves no matter what is all good and fine on paper but when the rubber meets the road and people are faced with the harsh reality that no amount of campaigning will ever change the fact that people of a healthy weight will get better jobs and attract a higher quality mate etc, all you are doing is setting them up for a future of unhappiness.

 

In other words, at the end of the day reality rules. You can ignore and pretend and try to legislate it away but in the end, nature wins.

 

"Higher quality mate" ... that's pretty subjective isn't it?

 

Totally straying off topic but I'd really like to know how you define that.

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

"Higher quality mate" ... that's pretty subjective isn't it?

 

Totally straying off topic but I'd really like to know how you define that.

 

Lol, Chin, I was secretly hoping someone would pick up on that.    I'd really like to know too.

[Guest [ch...]]

He meant lean prime rib... no wait, that would be highest quality *meat*...

[[...]]

Ooh, lean prime rib, my favorite steak ... marbled in ... fat! ...

[[Ch...]]

Cheeky wee devil! 

[[Be...]]

A higher quality mate:  One who has it together in mind and body.  I can usually tell by looking at someone's body, face and behavior if they are a higher quality mate.  I get what FG is saying.  A woman that comes to mind is Christie Brinkley.  Has anyone seen her lately at 62?  She's beautiful and smiles alot and is able to overcome adversity well.  She's resilient.  She's got it together from what I can see for an older woman.  High quality mate.  Oprah?  Keeps gaining weight.  She has hypothyroidism.  Not healthy.  I wonder if most overweight people are hypothyroid?  Why weren't there many fat people in the past, like the sixties, seventies and even eighties?  I wonder if all the toxic food on the market and in our environment today is screwing up a person's metabolism?  My two sisters, my mother and many of the girls in my school and neighborhood were couch potatoes when they were teens and never exercised and were thin.