American healthcare system

[[Fl...]]

If not for profit, then what ? Government bureaucracy ?

 

Exactly. I'm not saying the current healthcare system in the US isn't broken, but I don't think some people realize that there is no such thing as free and none of us would want any part of a medical system where profits were removed. You think your care is substandard now with a doctor who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for his trouble? I wouldn't want to see what a healthcare system looked like if my doctor was getting paid the same as the guy who serves me at McDonalds.

 

I don't think that the US system is about money only. I'm sure there are caring doctors. People without insurance and money are treated in emergency rooms, right ? It's more limited where I live if you don't have insurance ...

 

No one in the US can be denied emergency medical treatment. You will certainly end up with a big fat bill, but you can't be refused treatment. And someone ends up paying for it.

 

 

[[Co...]]

If not for profit, then what ? Government bureaucracy ?

 

Exactly. I'm not saying the current healthcare system in the US isn't broken, but I don't think some people realize that there is no such thing as free and none of us would want any part of a medical system where profits were removed. You think your care is substandard now with a doctor who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year for his trouble? I wouldn't want to see what a healthcare system looked like if my doctor was getting paid the same as the guy who serves me at McDonalds.

 

I don't think that the US system is about money only. I'm sure there are caring doctors. People without insurance and money are treated in emergency rooms, right ? It's more limited where I live if you don't have insurance ...

 

No one in the US can be denied emergency medical treatment. You will certainly end up with a big fat bill, but you can't be refused treatment. And someone ends up paying for it.

 

It's about fair distribution of taxes.

And I don't really think that's true. You will get the passionate people who become doctor's and not the money seeking people. Again if there is fair distribution of taxes so no one is really poor. But yeah, in Europe we have different views on this.

I wonder which country the op is from.

[[Ch...]]

I don't understand why so many U.S. people are opposed to universal medicare.

 

It seems like a win/win situation to my way of thinking.

 

People get the medical care they need, doctors get paid for it and don't have to chase around after delinquent accounts.

 

Chinook

 

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

Just a comment re: single payer...

 

I'm a senior, on original Medicare.  I have never met anyone who was not happy with Medicare!

[[Te...]]

Well, builder, it's being threatened to be privatized. And it has its own battles with people taking advantage of it - scams, doctors unwilling to see Medicare patients because of poor pay, etc. I'm just about at that age myself, and I still worry about the costs!

[[Fl...]]

It's about fair distribution of taxes.

 

"Fair" as in taking from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't (whether they simply hit some bad luck or are lazy and don't want to earn it) is not at all fair.

 

And I don't really think that's true. You will get the passionate people who become doctor's and not the money seeking people.

 

So what you are saying is that if doctors were paid the same as fast food workers that there would still be tons of bright, ambitious people wanting to spend a decade in medical school? If so, you don't understand human nature.

 

Again if there is fair distribution of taxes so no one is really poor. But yeah, in Europe we have different views on this.

I wonder which country the op is from.

 

History tells us that this kind of system never works out in the long run because again, human nature won't allow it to. Great societies are built on the energy of talented people that is harnessed by giving them financial incentive to perform. Remove that incentive by taking from one person to give to another and the clock to the Fall of Rome starts ticking.

 

 

[[wa...]]

the problem is not the american healthcare system (which delivers little value to the dollar). the problem is mainstream medicine in general which is profit driven. profit trumps real health.

 

Profit may be the reason why many people are damaged by medicine but it is also the reason why there are a ton of innovations that legitimately treat serious illnesses and save lives.

 

Yeah, well -the U.S. is the world’s leader in medical innovation because our government also pumps tens of billions of dollars into health research each year through the National Institutes of Health. In fact, many of the drugs, medical devices, and clinical tests that ultimately get marketed and sold by private sector medical companies originated in NIH-funded labs across the country.  Talk about corporate welfare. 

 

With regard to the different matter of health insurance, what I object to is the "free-market-can-do-no-wrong", profit driven health insurance be regarded like any other product for consumers.  Is it?  My health insurer dictated where I worked.  People remain in terrible jobs in order to keep their health insurance.  Also, if I have the resources, I can get the insurance and treatment and have longevity.  (Do the nicer blinds I choose have anything to do with my longevity or mortality)?

WBB

 

[[li...]]

I understand that in the USA health insurance is often tied to jobs.

 

Something that originated in the second World War, when employers were forbidden to increase wages (?), but they could offer extras like 'free healthcare'. I understand it is not taxed. It has very little to do with a 'free market'.

[[bu...]]

I understand that in the USA health insurance is often tied to jobs.

 

Something that originated in the second World War, when employers were forbidden to increase wages (?), but they could offer extras like 'free healthcare'. I understand it is not taxed. It has very little to do with a 'free market'.

  Not really correct.  With very rare exceptions, employers that provide health care do so by buying the employees insurance policies.  These are issued by private for-profit business entities.  Like most any business, they are concerned with marketing, cost control, margins, and all of the characteristics of any business organization.

[[Fl...]]

With regard to the different matter of health insurance, what I object to is the "free-market-can-do-no-wrong", profit driven health insurance be regarded like any other product for consumers. 

 

I don't think you would be able to find too many people that would argue that a free market can do no wrong with anything, of course it has its flaws, but due to the fact that "not so free market" systems that go against human nature are unsustainable it is the best place to start.

[[Be...]]

Just a comment re: single payer...

 

I'm a senior, on original Medicare.  I have never met anyone who was not happy with Medicare!

 

I'm not happy with my Medicare at all.  I'm on SSDI disability and I only get a pittance of income each month.  I get premium-free Medicare Part A, but the deductible each time you go into the hospital is a staggering $1300 bucks, not to mention the stuff that isn't covered.  I can't afford Part B.  That's about $160/mo.  Who can afford Medicare when on SSDI?  I don't qualify for Medicaid--too many resources.  I worked all my life and can't even get decent affordable medical insurance now that I'm disabled.  If I end up in the hospital, they'll completely wipe out my savings. 

[[bu...]]

Just a comment re: single payer...

 

I'm a senior, on original Medicare.  I have never met anyone who was not happy with Medicare!

 

I'm not happy with my Medicare at all.  I'm on SSDI disability and I only get a pittance of income each month.  I get premium-free Medicare Part A, but the deductible each time you go into the hospital is a staggering $1300 bucks, not to mention the stuff that isn't covered.  I can't afford Part B.  That's about $160/mo.  Who can afford Medicare when on SSDI?  I don't qualify for Medicaid--too many resources.  I worked all my life and can't even get decent affordable medical insurance now that I'm disabled.  If I end up in the hospital, they'll completely wipe out my savings.

 

But 1)  you aren't a senior using Medicare for health insurance, and 2) you're using it primarily for disability coverage, with health insurance as a secondary benefit.

 

So I'll be more specific...I know of no senior citizens who rely on Medicare for health insurance that is dissatisfied.  Medicare as a health insurance programs is perhaps the most successful government program there is.

[[Co...]]

@[ f...]

 

 

That depends on your morals I guess. I don't mind giving to less fortunate people. I also don't believe that people don't work out of laziness or on purpose. Because in my opinion people want to be usefull. NObody wants to sit at home and be in bed all day.

So it's a moral issue and not a information type issue. (i mean there is no information that will convince you or me to change our views on that)

As long as there is a country that can serve you and a country that can serve my type of people then we should be fine

And by the way fastfood workers are probably  paid not so good in your country, but in my country it's actually paid quite decently. I have a friend who is highly educated (two bachelor degrees) and she chooses to work in a fastfood restaurant, because she likes the working hours. (and the pay is quite decent so why not, most wages are about the same in my country, doctors get a bit more that's true. Maybe twice the wage of a person working in a fastfood restaurant, so there are differences)

 

I heared switzerland was experimenting with a basic income (regardless of what you do) I would be pro that. I think ppl would get creative and do what they love instead of focussing on getting food

on the table.

[[wh...]]

Just a comment re: single payer...

 

I'm a senior, on original Medicare.  I have never met anyone who was not happy with Medicare!

 

So I'll be more specific...I know of no senior citizens who rely on Medicare for health insurance that is dissatisfied.  Medicare as a health insurance programs is perhaps the most successful government program there is.

[/builder quote above: I can't do more than one quote at a time ]

 

I have to say I agree with this. Although I was forced to stop working way before I was ready to do so, I am always grateful for the medicare coverage I have. What a surprise it was when the copays and deductibles were way, way lower than my employer sponsored insurance, which over 25 years increased in premiums yearly and the deductible went up too.

 

Medicare runs just fine, and there is no reason it couldn't be expanded to all citizens. Except for the fact that it would cut into the profits of the entire industry, and they're not going to let that happen. The only thing that might bring about radical change in the US is a war that happens on our own soil. The collective trauma and devastation felt by millions in Europe after WWII played a major role in influencing so many European countries to establish universal healthcare.

[[wh...]]

Just read this about the attempts to privatize medicare:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opinion/the-medicare-killers.html

 

I sure hope that doesn't happen.

 

 

[[be...]]

Hi

 

I think Medicare works very well. I pay a zero premium and only two dollars per prescription. When I make an appointment to see Dr. I usually get it within a week. If I say it's an emergency, they fit me in the  same day. ThonI did notice that when I lived in New England, most of the doctors I saw graduated from Ivy League schools. Here in the Midwest I haven't found a single person who graduated from an Ivy League school.  That surprised and upset me at the same time.

 

I also believe it depends on which hospital you go to. Hospitals that are poor and in a rush to see patients often misdiagnose or skip a diagnosis, and that means trouble . Also for example some hospitals are good at one particular thing and poor in another one. For example Cleveland clinic foundation has one of the best cardiac care units in the world. But when it comes to seeing a regular doctor or psychiatrist  they all seem stupid to me. One think I'll always remember and this is what my father said to me when I was young and he was a doctor. Betsy, if you ever want to die check yourself into a hospital. Actually  that's what happened to him. He went to a hospital because he was dehydrated. Then he caught pneumonia in the hospital and died there. But I prefer our system to other system is in the world . One has to be their own advocate, and keep the good doctors and drop kick the rest.

 

Hugs liberty, Betsy ❤️

[[li...]]

Well, there is a local hospital that is good at doing a few things, but for other issues ...

 

Once, I had an appointment with an internist and it was really rushed. The waiting room was full of people.

 

I'd describe the doctors as mediocre. They are not bad at doing average stuff, but don't expect really talented people ...

 

Unfortunately, we can't pick our own doctors here.

 

Betsy, sorry to hear about your father.

[[Fl...]]

@ floriday guy

 

 

That depends on your morals I guess. I don't mind giving to less fortunate people.

 

As do many others. But I don't understand how anyone could believe that it is "moral" to use force to take from one person to give to another, which is what the inefficient and often incompetent government does. 

 

I also don't believe that people don't work out of laziness or on purpose. Because in my opinion people want to be usefull. NObody wants to sit at home and be in bed all day.

 

Nobody wants to sit at home all day? There are plenty of people who would love nothing more than to do just that. And the sad thing is that a welfare state encourages that and serves to keep people dependent, some of whom would excel if they were given the opportunity to do so.

 

Crime is a real problem in much of the world. I live in a relatively safe area, but I still can't leave a bunch of tools in my truck or someone would steal them. If these people wanted to feel "useful" they would go buy their own tools, but its easier for them to take mine than it is to work for their own so some people choose to do that. It's no different with welfare. For every person who could legitimately benefit from it and use it as a stepping stone to help them get their life back on track there are many more who use it as a way to get free stuff.

 

A societal structure that goes against human nature is unsustainable. In practice it seems like a noble idea to make everyone "equal" but the reality is that not everyone has good intentions and a willingness to contribute so eventually these countries will reach a tipping point where the money runs out and the whole thing collapses. Just ask the USSR, Greece and Venezuela how it worked out for them. 

[[li...]]

FG,

 

I pretty much agree with all you said except 'Nobody wants to sit at home all day? There are plenty of people who would love nothing more than to do just that. And the sad thing is that a welfare state encourages that and serves to keep people dependent, some of whom would excel if they were given the opportunity to do so. '

 

Very few people want to be unemployed. Maybe those who have no skills, who would have to work at very low wages without any prospects. I guess it depends on where you live. And people's cultural backgrounds.

[[be...]]

Liberty

 

Yes there are people in the US who want to sit around and do nothing but collect welfare checks. That's a problem we have to solve. But this happens to mainly minorities who have a poor education  because they live in a poor city and cannot afford college. For example, the University I went to a long time ago now costs $60,000 per year, not including  room and board and books. We have to find a way to make those who are smart and ambitious to be able to afford a college education. In the long run it'll save our tax payers dollars because they will provide their own taxes, their own Social Security and they will not collect welfare. In my opinion  our educational system is a mess.

[[Fl...]]

Very few people want to be unemployed. Maybe those who have no skills, who would have to work at very low wages without any prospects. I guess it depends on where you live. And people's cultural backgrounds.

 

I think there are probably a lot more people than you realize who would be perfectly happy to let the government support them if they had the choice. There are plenty of them here in the US, that's for sure. It's unfortunate but it is one of the reasons why a welfare state can never work long term.

 

There will always always always be people like this so it can never work in the long run. And it also perpetuates itself by making people who might otherwise be self sufficient dependent upon the government. That's why there are a lot more people who are content to live off of welfare. The welfare state has produced a dependent class. When you get used to being supported by someone else and your kids grow up in that kind of environment it becomes a way of life. Not only does it cheat the people who are forced to support this but it also cheats the person who is on the receiving end.

 

Yes there are people in the US who want to sit around and do nothing but collect welfare checks. That's a problem we have to solve. But this happens to mainly minorities who have a poor education  because they live in a poor city and cannot afford college. For example, the University I went to a long time ago now costs $60,000 per year, not including  room and board and books. We have to find a way to make those who are smart and ambitious to be able to afford a college education. In the long run it'll save our tax payers dollars because they will provide their own taxes, their own Social Security and they will not collect welfare. In my opinion  our educational system is a mess.

 

You don't have to attend college to make decent money. A hard worker can make a good living if they are willing to put forth the effort.

 

I agree about the education system being broken but that isn't the solution to all of these problems. At the end of the day if you tell people that the root of all of their problems is something that is beyond their control they start to believe it, and it turns them into perpetual victims who truly believe that they can't do anything to help themselves. Not that these things don't affect people's situations, but if the problem isn't addressed from all angles and you convince people that they are helpless to solve their own problems the situation will never improve.

[[co...]]

Where do you live again, FG?

 

With your *parents*?  What happens to all those PAWS sufferers who never even know what is wrong with them because they can't afford an internet connection and discover BB or some other website that clues them in?  Or get fired from their jobs for cognitive issues?  Or kicked out of their homes and have NOWHERE to go cuz they weren't born into the 'right' family?  Sounds like you ascribe to the 'only the strong survive' school of life.

 

We are all one.  From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.  If *I* have enough, how does it harm me to share my excess with someone less endowed?

 

Not everyone is born on 3rd base.  Or 2ond or *EVEN* first.

 

There is actually a discussion I've been seeing a lot now online about a basic universal income.  Rather than people sitting at home playing video games, it frees up a lot of time to spend on creative pursuits.  Who knows what solutions could be found to the huge crisis facing life on the planet…who knows what works of art could be made?  Rather than sit home eating in front of the TV, most humans have a inborn need to find a 'meaningful' pastime/work and contribute to the good of the whole.  It's been tried in Denmark and someplace in Canada and the results run contrary to your dire prediction.  Who knows what could be accomplished if a person didn't have to worry about their basic needs being met?

 

I wasn't going to come back to this discussion when I saw the route it was taking.

 

I'm too lazy to provide the links to back up my premises.  I don't care much what you all come up with here--I live my beliefs in my hometown--that's where change starts, imnsho, locally.

 

Knock yourselves out. 

[[Fl...]]

Where do you live again, FG?

 

With your *parents*?  What happens to all those PAWS sufferers who never even know what is wrong with them because they can't afford an internet connection and discover BB or some other website that clues them in?  Or get fired from their jobs for cognitive issues?  Or kicked out of their homes and have NOWHERE to go cuz they weren't born into the 'right' family?  Sounds like you ascribe to the 'only the strong survive' school of life.

 

We are all one.  From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.  If *I* have enough, how does it harm me to share my excess with someone less endowed?

 

I'm sure it doesn't harm you and I encourage you to be as charitable as you are willing and able to be. I encourage that of everyone. Private charity is a great thing and that is how these problems should be addressed.

 

The issue I have is with government forcibly taking from one person and giving to the next. I can't even imagine how anyone could consider that to be "fair".

 

[[Fl...]]

This applies to most things that government gets involved in. Healthcare being one of them.

 

I just signed up for obamacare because I basically had to. I got "lucky" in that I am getting decent coverage for $40 per month, because I am dirt poor. But despite being poor enough that I can't even afford to move out on my own (I won't have any choice in a couple of months) I HAD to buy health insurance, or pay a penalty of $700!

 

How insane is that? I am forced to buy health insurance, whether I need it or want it or not. Even if it makes me homeless.

[[Be...]]

FG, you could have applied for a hardship exemption from having to get the Obamacare if you didn't make that much money this year, then you wouldn't have to pay a penalty at tax time.