Taking the Red Pill- the importance of being aware of your own best interest

[Guest [mu...]]

Humans have been living at least somewhat "civilized" for a long time now so there is a wealth of information available that theoretically should be able to teach us everything we need to know about what works and what doesn't work but some folks don't seem to want to learn from other people's mistakes.

 

....all we have to do is look at past history to see what kinds of systems have produced strong, innovative societies that have stood the test of time. We can talk about ideals all we want but the proof is in the pudding. There is no such thing as a perfect system, but one that accurately mirrors human nature is going to come the best we can hope for.

 

But this type of society <i>hasn't</i> stood the test of time, and we are still repeating the mistakes of the past.

 

Civilizational collapse occurs when societies reach unsustainable levels of resource consumption and the divide between the rich and poor grows too high. Sound familiar? We need only to look at history to see that this system of greed cannot hold indefinitely. I agree that all societies should mirror human nature. Fortunately, it is also in our nature to share resources, protect the environment, be cooperative, and care for the betterment and welfare of all (and no, communist dictatorships did not even come close to representing this, and yes, other systems are possible beyond what has already existed. Any inability to see that another world is possible is due the success of current ideologies, as well as a massive failure of imagination). A recent NASA-funded study that looked at the collapses of previous societies stated that "collapse can be avoided, and population can reach a steady state at the maximum carrying capacity, if the rate of depletion of nature is reduced to a sustainable level, and if resources are distributed equitably." This is literally the opposite of a capitalist economy, which must endlessly increase production, profit, and inequality if it is to survive. And yet as history shows, if WE are to survive, capitalism (at least as it exists today) simply cannot continue. We are living in an unprecedented age, and our failure to recognize the unsustainable nature of our current civilization will have much more dire consequences than it did in the past. That doesn't mean we have to give up our democracy (although many argue that we already have, and that true democracy is the very antithesis of capitalism), but it does mean that we have to make drastic changes to all unsustainable and unjust systems - especially economic ones.

 

There is a lot of reason to think there would be less of these innovations if there was no profit involved. I don't have stats to back this up but I would venture to guess that almost all major health innovations have came from countries like the US, Germany, UK etc.

 

And I guarantee that we would have even more innovations if we were to abandon the medical industrial complex. Any system that prioritizes profits over actual results and treatment efficacy will always have poorer quality innovations than those that don't. Currently, the vast majority of innovations or discoveries that are not profitable will never see the light of day, no matter how effective they might be.

 

I believe that for-profit enterprises in health care (as well as all other social services) do much more harm than good. There's more to be said on this subject, but for me it comes down to this: it is in the interest of any for-profit system to increase sales indefinitely, above all other considerations. Increasing sales in the business of health care means that it is much more profitable to keep people sick than to make them well (i.e. to keep customers coming back for more). Producing poor quality drugs that create side effects that demand more drugs to treat those side effects is not problematic under this system, but desirable. This is not a conspiracy - it's simply the nature of business. The fact that it is completely unethical is irrelevant to shareholders. No matter what you might think about the benefits of for-profit ventures, it shouldn't be difficult to see that its place in health care is dubious at best.

 

And that is a testament to his character. Everyone has to look out for themselves in order to survive but there are certainly some people who stand out as examples of good human beings and anyone who is willing to help a benzo warrior deserves to be commended.

 

I will agree with you there! My husband is truly the most incredible human being I've ever known.

 

[[co...]]

I think part of the problem is deceit. Who knows which pill is red or blue when people are painting them different colors? It's like the movies when they're debating whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire to diffuse the bomb. In real life, the bomb maker paints them all black! Read through the comments on this thread and you'll see that one person's blue pill is another's red. Where is truth?

[Guest [mu...]]

I think part of the problem is deceit. Who knows which pill is red or blue when people are painting them different colors? It's like the movies when they're debating whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire to diffuse the bomb. In real life, the bomb maker paints them all black! Read through the comments on this thread and you'll see that one person's blue pill is another's red. Where is truth?

 

Great points. I actually just logged on to say something similar after watching a bit of FG's recommended Stefan Molyneux videos. All I can say is that we have fundamentally different retinas for interpreting the red vs. blue color spectrums!

 

Seriously though, much of what we interpret as "truth" will be colored by our own experiences, genders, cultures, race, backgrounds, hormones, countries of origin, privilege, education, spiritual views, level of development, etc, etc. The human experience contains both greed and generosity, peace and war, love and hate. There are many truths for different people on different levels of existence. Integral theory (which weaves together all of the insights from the different pools of knowledge) can help us navigate through this, but it is unfortunately rarely taught, and most people prefer dualistic perspectives in any case (liberal vs. conservative, capitalism vs. communism, greed vs. generosity, etc). The fact that everything and its opposite can contain some truth is usually too much for people to handle, at least over the internet!

 

 

[[Fl...]]

But this type of society <i>hasn't</i> stood the test of time, and we are still repeating the mistakes of the past.

 

Civilizational collapse occurs when societies reach unsustainable levels of resource consumption and the divide between the rich and poor grows too high.

 

I think you need to recheck your history. Just recently there have been a few countries that have collapsed and it is the result of the very policies that you are trying to promote. There is no such thing as unlimited money and you will never, ever get everyone to agree to a wealth redistribution scheme so the pendulum will always swing back to the center once these countries collapse under the weight of unsustainable government spending.

 

Sound familiar? We need only to look at history to see that this system of greed cannot hold indefinitely. I agree that all societies should mirror human nature. Fortunately, it is also in our nature to share resources, protect the environment, be cooperative, and care for the betterment and welfare of all

 

That is your idealized version of human nature. We both agree that sharing and being cooperative is a SIDE of human nature, but it is only one side of it. Wishing everyone would be that way all of the time will never make it true and when you implement policies that do not account for the other, darker side of human nature it will end in disaster. Every. Single. Time.

 

 

 

 

 

[[co...]]

Spot on, floridaguy! My joke about human greed was just that, a joke. Human greed is real, as is compassion. They will both be with us forever. Any system that denies the existence of either one is just magical thinking. Since greed is an always present aspect of human nature, it is best to try and find a way to channel it as capitalism does. Capitalism forces you to channel your greed into serving the needs of many. Although many of us here are mad at big pharma, they gave us what we asked for: a quick easy solution to the anxiety we were facing. I was not forced to take xanax, I asked for it! I regret it now but that doesn't erase the fact that I asked my doctor to prescribe it. If charity, kindness, and compassion are forced through regulation, is it real?

[Guest [mu...]]

Long-term history is what I've brought under question. Complete civilizational collapse, not just economic collapse and government bailouts. The only dominant aspects of human nature that have a track record for bringing about <i>civilizational</i> collapse (every. single. time.) are greed over resources and inequality. There are much larger and more important factors at stake here than just political economics, but this is much too complex for a forum discussion.

[Guest [mu...]]

Capitalism forces you to channel your greed into serving the needs of many.

 

You can't be serious on this.

 

[Guest [mu...]]

Nice chatting with you folks... I think it's time I take my leave here, LOL!

[[Fl...]]

I think part of the problem is deceit. Who knows which pill is red or blue when people are painting them different colors? It's like the movies when they're debating whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire to diffuse the bomb. In real life, the bomb maker paints them all black! Read through the comments on this thread and you'll see that one person's blue pill is another's red. Where is truth?

 

Great points. I actually just logged on to say something similar after watching a bit of FG's recommended Stefan Molyneux videos. All I can say is that we have fundamentally different retinas for interpreting the red vs. blue color spectrums!

 

Great points indeed.

 

The only question is, which of these methods of interpretation stand up to reason and logic? One of the big reason why I like Molyneux's material is because it is fact based, he backs up his viewpoints with solid statistics and he is open to changing his opinions when he has new information.

 

I don't have a problem with a different POV, I have a problem with emotional based arguments. There will always be variations in interpretations but if you are using an emotional retina to filter the color spectrum you are seeing the colors backwards. That's ok as long as you acknowledge that but don't try to present your emotional argument as factual and don't use the typical debate tactics of people who have no argument such as ridicule and shame to try to create a smokescreen or disengagement to end the debate. I'm not saying you are doing this, but that's usually the direction it goes.

 

 

Spot on, floridaguy! My joke about human greed was just that, a joke. Human greed is real, as is compassion. They will both be with us forever. Any system that denies the existence of either one is just magical thinking. Since greed is an always present aspect of human nature, it is best to try and find a way to channel it as capitalism does. Capitalism forces you to channel your greed into serving the needs of many. Although many of us here are mad at big pharma, they gave us what we asked for: a quick easy solution to the anxiety we were facing. I was not forced to take xanax, I asked for it! I regret it now but that doesn't erase the fact that I asked my doctor to prescribe it. If charity, kindness, and compassion are forced through regulation, is it real?

 

I agree that capitalism generally results in this "greed" being channeled into helping others and it certainly does a lot more good than a lot of people will ever give it credit for but I see the other side of the argument as well. None of us were forced to take psych drugs but many were prescribed these drugs without proper consent. So I do agree that the system is broken, I just believe that it is broken at the regulation level as opposed to being a direct negative result of a profit based system.

 

 

[[Fl...]]

I really need to get off of BB and do some work but I thought I would throw this out there for anyone who is interested in challenging their red vs blue pill beliefs. Hopefully this will also get us off the political track with this discussion-

 

When you get a chance check out Stefan Molyneux's videos on single mothers. Your reaction to those videos is a pretty good gauge of how plugged in you are.

 

He is very outspoken in his views of single motherhood having an extreme negative effect on society and he backs it up with mountains of statistics to prove his case. Of course this is not a popular opinion as society tells us that we should celebrate and support single mothers, and on the surface it might seem like the right thing to do, but the statistics tell us that it is very bad for society and individuals alike.

 

If you have a negative reaction to his stance on single motherhood after reviewing the information he presents in those videos, chances are you are in the blue pill camp.

[[co...]]

Capitalism forces you to channel your greed into serving the needs of many.

 

You can't be serious on this.

Sure I am. I might be mistaken, I don't know everything. How can you get rich selling a product if no one buys it? If people are not forced to buy your product they will not buy it if it is garbage. So if you're greedy and want lots of money, you have to sell something that lots of people want. I thought this was an open discussion, no need for you to get upset and leave but rather try and persuade me with better ideas.

[[co...]]

I'm curious mutuuraia, how would you deal with greed and inequality? They seem to be built in to the human condition. My brother in law can play any piece of music he hears on the guitar, I can't but I can beat him at chess easily. How would you equalize us? I take out the garbage every week because my wife is not physically strong enough to do it. The list is endless from the trivial things I just mentioned to really important ones. Why do we celebrate uniqueness if equality should be our goal?

[[Fl...]]

Sure I am. I might be mistaken, I don't know everything. How can you get rich selling a product if no one buys it? If people are not forced to buy your product they will not buy it if it is garbage. So if you're greedy and want lots of money, you have to sell something that lots of people want. I thought this was an open discussion, no need for you to get upset and leave but rather try and persuade me with better ideas.

 

This reminds me of conversations I have had with people in the past who can't grasp the concept that advertising is driven far more by the market than it is from the advertiser's personal agendas.

 

Many tv shows and commercials I see today sicken me with the things they promote but I realize that it is nothing more than a reflection of the society that is being marketed to. It costs a LOT of money to advertise on television (I should know, I have spent well in the six figure range on it myself over the years) so the tv programs have to be something that people want to watch and the commercials have to be for things that people want to buy, otherwise those shows and commercials get weeded out of existence.

 

I'm curious mutuuraia, how would you deal with greed and inequality? They seem to be built in to the human condition. My brother in law can play any piece of music he hears on the guitar, I can't but I can beat him at chess easily. How would you equalize us? I take out the garbage every week because my wife is not physically strong enough to do it. The list is endless from the trivial things I just mentioned to really important ones. Why do we celebrate uniqueness if equality should be our goal?

 

This is red pill knowledge at its very core. Men are different than women. Blacks are different than whites are different than asians are different than hispanics.

 

The thing is, you can't even have a conversation about these things these days because political correctness has essentially shut down the ability to have any kind of realistic discussion. And of course all this does is exacerbate the problems that are plaguing our society.

 

 

 

[[co...]]

Yes, this an interesting thread. I hope we can continue to discuss without people getting upset. I'm trying to stay away from current politics and keep it on a philosophical level. I googled red pill today and came across ReturnofKings.com Have you heard of it? Wow, there's some politically incorrect stuff! A really interesting take though.

[[Fl...]]

Yes, this an interesting thread. I hope we can continue to discuss without people getting upset. I'm trying to stay away from current politics and keep it on a philosophical level. I googled red pill today and came across ReturnofKings.com Have you heard of it? Wow, there's some politically incorrect stuff! A really interesting take though.

 

I agree. I think the mods will let the thread stand if we keep it civil and concentrate on the philosophy of red pill ideas, which is not political in and of itself.

 

I am aware of several red pill oriented websites and a lot of them do focus on men's issues but it goes a lot deeper than that and that's one of the reasons why I like Molyneux's stuff. He touches on feminism and men's rights but he also digs into subjects that I didn't know much about (such as peaceful parenting) and other topics from race realism to the prescription drug epidemic.

 

That is actually how I found him- he has at least one interview with Robert Whitaker, author of Anatomy of an Epidemic. He is deep into politics now with the elections but I would highly recommend digging into some of his other stuff as there is a wealth of information that even opened my eyes to a few things.

 

He exposes lots of uncomfortable truths and I would expect him to end up with a bigger gig in the future as society begins to understand that we need to have realistic conversations about these tough topics.

[[co...]]

Thanks, I will check him out and hopefully have some new ideas to bounce around on this thread. Lol, I basically have no ego and very little offends me. To me, web discussions are purely abstractions and I just enjoy debating ideas. But I realize others don't so I will try to remain circumspect.

[Guest [mu...]]

Don't worry, you didn't made me upset, Confused, I just realized that this discussion was going nowhere fast, and it all seemed very funny all of a sudden. FG's insistence that blue pill = disagreeing with his personal favorite youtuber, and red pill = agreeing with his personal favorite youtuber seals the deal for me though, LOL!

[[co...]]

Well ok, but I would enjoy your company. Take care!

[[be...]]

Hi:

 

I read part of ReturnofKings.com, the why you are liberal section, and it was the opposite of me. Where he comes up with this pseudo science I don't know. But to me, he is obviously very conservative. I'm sure he'll vote for Trump........If here lives here.

 

Betsy

[[co...]]

Yeah I wasn't advocating it. Like everything, I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it. Just something I came across with some views I hadn't heard. I found it interesting. I think it is a backlash to radical feminism. When the pendulum swings too far one way it swings just as hard the other way.

[[co...]]

Betsy...SSShhhhhhh... Don't mention the"T" word or the "H" word...you remember what happened last time... :D

[[be...]]

Yeah I wasn't advocating it. Like everything, I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it. Just something I came across with some views I hadn't heard. I found it interesting. I think it is a backlash to radical feminism. When the pendulum swings too far one way it swings just as hard the other way.

 

I understand.........

[[az...]]

Hi:

 

I read part of ReturnofKings.com, the why you are liberal section, and it was the opposite of me. Where he comes up with this pseudo science I don't know. But to me, he is obviously very conservative. I'm sure he'll vote for Trump........If here lives here.

 

Betsy

 

Ew, count me out then. " Why you are liberal " ...give me a break. And T, not if my life depended on it. Total psychopath. Such a disrespectful and arrogant person. Ok- just not so sure about the whole thing- didn't want to appear to be supporting certain things when I said "good thread," that I know nothing about, as far as the meanings or implied meanings of certain words or phrases. I haven't looked these people up and don't know the meaning or multiple possible meanings that are "happening" here (or not happening) or may or may not be being advocated. I just think it's a good idea to question things and ideas/"ideals" all the time and be as awake as possible without going insane. That's all I meant by my comment. I'm not even sure what is going on here and I didn't mean to get political I just want to make sure it doesn't look like I'm supporting some truly ridiculous and also very unappealing antics that are going on right now in the US... Not that anyone else is here either, but I haven't read up on or studied the names here and try to stay out of politics as much as possible (not that the thread has a political bent or was meant to necessarily in the first place?)

 

I'm a total womanist and card carrying feminist and also concerned about the environment and human rights as well. Not corrupt corporate or the corrupt side of capitalism rights. Not at all. I am also not hoping for any kind of a return of monarchy. Quite the opposite.

[[co...]]

This thread is not about return of kings. I googled "red pill" and saw it. They are not the genesis or red pill, its main supporters, or any of that. Red pill is not a right wing or T thing. Just curious, what does it mean to be a total womanist and card carrying feminist?

[[az...]]

I'm for women's rights as far as equal pay and having equal opportunity in business, politics and the same liberties that men are afforded, etc.