Disputes and conflicts

[[be...]]

  Why are discussion which promote division and are political, even allowed on here ?? Many of us are going through the most difficult time in our lives and joined this forum for support and it is supposed to be a safe place !  I made the mistake of commenting on this discussion "Are there any other Atheists here?",  because I thought it would be light hearted fun, but now I see talk about politics , how liberals are bad, Abortion, etc.  Why is this on here   If I wanted to be triggered and upset , I can just watch/read the news.  I do not need it here or want it here.  So my question is Why is this allowed and why is locking of threads selectively done and the rules inconsistently applied?    Politics globally is currently a very divisive issue and has people hurting and angry, again why are these discussions on here, how does this help with healing at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

 

I once asked the Team to have that thread locked but they didn't think it needed to be.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Fixed mixed quote

                     

 

 

[[Fl...]]

And I will state again, if you are at year 5, 6, or wherever, and your life is unlivable, then TRY SOMETHING.  I do not care if it is reinstating or remeron or electroshock therapy, but sitting there hoping tomorrow will be a better day is Einstein's definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

 

 

Since I have probably seen the worst of what this experience has to offer just like most of us here I can understand being at wits end and feeling like you need to try something instead of sitting around waiting to feel better, but your argument is flawed.

 

There is only ONE thing that is pretty much universally agreed upon that has the potential to heal us, and that is TIME. I have my doubts about the "everyone heals" line myself (I believe that some of us may have a few symptoms that persist indefinitely) but I do believe that it is very rare for anyone to suffer from acute level symptoms beyond the 5-7 year mark So to me someone saying that sitting around waiting to heal is the definition of insanity, well, I consider that to be pretty insane.

 

Especially considering that symptoms do not tend to abate in a linear manner. I can't understand why anyone would throw away a few years worth of healing to a take a chance that reinstatement might provide some relief. I believe that if it is proven that benzos cause serious problems for someone, there will be a price to pay one way or the other and you can get it out of the way now or you can take your chances on how it might come back to bite you down the road.

 

We all have to do what we have to do to survive and I don't judge anyone for that, but I will still call a spade a spade and I think your reasoning behind this is flawed.

 

That is why I criticize the "optimists."  You want to be optimistic, fine, just do not let in cloud your good judgement.

 

See above.

 

I am far from an optimistic person but some might say that I am pretty optimistic about the healing process, and my better judgement tells me that the last thing I need to do is take my chances with a drug that has already proven to have severely damaged me.

 

Which brings me to this:

 

Permanent damage is not the case since ALL the people I know that reinstated started feeling fine.  That's not damage since a benzo can't heal damage. Right???

 

We all know that benzos don't heal anything. Reinstating doesn't "heal" damage, it covers it up. I assume we agree on the fact that benzos do alter our chemistry, and if those alterations can cause serious, debilitating issues I don't see how anyone could argue that something that changes our bodies in a way that can cause such pain and distress when that thing is taken away is not "damage". The fact that putting the band aid back on the wound causes the pain to go away does not mean that there isn't any damage, it just means that you've found something to cover it up temporarily.

 

[[...]]

Birdman,

 

"But I stress never to use the word damage since benzo's can't fix damage and the one's that reinstated suddenly find themselves feeling better and that's the case 99% of the time if they know what they are doing and that's a hard topic to talk about. Let's just say the doses they take are making up for lost time and that's all I will say on that topic so do not PM me please! 

I can only guess that some brain's for one reason or another just take too long to heal."

 

I don't know if we are members of the same forum.  From what I've read on the Benzo Buddies forum, 99% of those who reinstated REGRETTED it because it made them feel far WORSE than before their reinstatement.  I'm really shocked by your statement, which is flat out untrue.

 

Sofa

 

Its not untrue at all.  I have many personal email addresses with other people here.  We talk and we know some that did not make it off while they tried very hard.    If you want to believe that 100% of people that join here are fixed and never reinstate then you keep believing that.  I know a few percent that didn't make it and I am not going to lie about it.  Even the mods know some people don't make it off.  Everyone has a breaking point.  What can I say.  I've been here along time and seen a lot of things, not all of them pretty.

 

Reminds me of a joke:

 

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

 

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

 

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

 

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

 

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

 

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

 

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

 

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

 

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

 

And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”

 

Hi Birdy

 

I thought it was a good joke. Reminds me of the one that goes: A man kept praying every day that he would win the lottery and he never did in spite of his fervent and persistent prayers. His prayers went on and on. Finally, one day he hears this big booming voice that says "Buy a ticket, stupid". 

 

Hope you're doing well

 

Bart

[[Lo...]]

Curious what's up with the obsessive intellectualizing on this thread?? Is this thread made up of stressed out engineers or something? Why can't we all admit we're scared, take a few deep breaths and avoid these kinds of lengthy threads that lead nowhere fast

[[be...]]

Because that's how some people think. Everybody wants an answer, but there is no answer but what FG said: time. I would like to see several studies from peer reviewed journals that say some of us won't ever heal.

[[Ma...]]

I am happy that such conflicts are shown here, too.

I have been on websites in which that was denied and left them.

I think different points of view can be helpful. Sometimes I get inspiration even by persons with whom I do not agree.

I like BB because I can tell what is in my mind and would not be erased for that.

So - even when you are fighting - its okey..

 

 

[[ra...]]

Dear All,

 

This thread is filled with stressed out engineers, at least I am one of them.

 

Anyone is free to believe whatever s/he wants.  Threads get locked down because there are those who are too sensitive to bear others opinions.

 

I am a die hard libertarian, and I am appalled that our society as a whole has become so candy-a$$ed that we cannot bear the mere existence of information that offends us.

 

I get that benzo buddies is supposed to be a safe place, and that benzo victims are sensitive, because when I am not on SOMETHING, whether it is alcohol, ativan, cigs, or whatever, I AM that sensitive person who cannot bear his OWN thoughts much less others.

 

That is when I said "I give up.  I am done."  I went to a new pdoc and said, "What are my options?" He said "We can try x, y, or z, or, of all the GABA agonists, Valium is the safest."  I went home and discussed it with my wife, terrified with anxiety and panic disorder.  But somewhere in my head is the "6th gear."  The gear that allows me to take myself out of my mental disorder and solve a problem.  So "6th gear" ramcon1 has a conversation with his wife.  6th gear ramcon1 knows that for 25 years he tried every x, y, and z there was to treat the only psychological problem he had before this which was insomnia, and all he EVER got out of x, y and z were side effects, so he ended up on benzos.

 

So, 6th gear ramcon1 and his wife say, in unison "TAKE THE F'ING VALIUM!!!!!!"

 

It took me a while to figure out the right dose, but I did.  I no longer drink.  I no longer smoke.  My life is not filled with anxiety and panic.  I still can't eat, but I my life is now livable.

 

Most psychiatrists say give it a year.  Most "addiction specialists" say stay clean and adapt to your life, whatever it is.

 

Life is not a dress rehearsal.  I was 3 1/2 years off benzos, 1 full year off alcohol, 2 months off cigs when I lost my job and realized I was a sensitive, anxious, angry, bitter, bag of cats.  If that is who I am "clean" then "f" clean.  I am way happier now.  Period.

 

If valium goes south on me in a few years, at least I will have had a few livable years.

 

I just want the message to be heard that:

1.  Most people come off benzos without any issues.

2.  For the VAST majority of people who do have issues, they are fine, fine, fine, in a year or so.

3.  MANY people stay on benzos their whole lives, are helped by them, and die of something that has nothing to do with their benzo use.

4.  If you are here, especially on the protracted board, you are one of a VERY SMALL percentage of people who has a problem with benzos, and an even bigger problem getting off.  You will probably heal some day, but you may not.  There is no scientific study because we represent about 1 out of every 350 people who are prescribed benzos.  We have an orphan disease, and have to figure it out for ourselves.

 

Personally, I would rather figure it out in an open discussion forum, but I understand that people are sensitive because before I reinstated I was that guy.  You know what I did while I was that guy?  I stayed away from the board!!!!  What a novel concept.  If something bothers you, move away from it.

 

That is how people lived their lives before the modern era of extreme candy-a$$edness.  If someone was smoking and you did not like smoke, you moved away from it.  If someone wrote a book, and you did not like what it said, you stopped reading it.

 

I miss those days more than I can say (although I think I did a pretty good job expressing that with this post ;-)

 

I am now going back to my anxiety free life.  Which by the way is filled with normal anxiety as I have the sinus infection from hell, and just had a huge fight with my father's wife who is a nut case, but I can handle that since I reinstated.

 

Be well and good luck!

 

Love always,

 

Ramcon1.

[[be...]]

Ramcon1:

 

I get where you are at. Good post to explain your problems. I know of several people who have taken Xanax for more than 20 years and are doing just fine. For some, I guess, that's a good choice for them. It might be a good choice for you, but not for me, as I am different and react differently. Whatever you decide, I wish you well. Nobody is here to judge you, so you don't need to explain yourself to anyone but your wife. 

 

Betsy

[[Fl...]]

Hard to argue with most of that ramcon. I personally would never take a chance reinstating but a few years ago a member here said something that made a lot of sense and it stuck in my head. He said "There are no prizes for being drug free". That made me realize that we need to focus on creating a life that each of us can live with. For me that means taking my chances off of all of these nasty drugs, but who am I to say that it should be the same for someone else who has different symptoms and is in a different situation? I am fairly sure that if I were to reinstate it would probably cause me exponentially more problems sometime down the road (if that is even possible) but the evidence seems to point to the fact that most people are not like *me*.

 

And I agree, modern society has taught people to be WAY too sensitive and that might play into some of the reason why it is difficult to talk about controversial subjects that relate to benzo issues. Of course we have to be careful what we say as there are people out there who are genuinely sensitive to the point where it is dangerous for them to expose themselves to too much negative information, but as a whole I firmly believe that society needs a lot more truth and a lot less coddling.

 

So I for one appreciate a frank conversation about this, even if I don't agree with some of what is being said.

[[ra...]]

Benzogirl and Florida,

 

You have always been my true buddies, thru my best and my worst.  I always wish everyone success and peace, but especially you and a few others.  I do not expect or even want any one to agree.  I may be a bit ( ;-) ) opinionated, but I have been convinced of an opposite opinion to my original many times, by someone who was willing to explain to me why s/he thought I was wrong thru open discussion.  I often falsely believe that other people will be as reasonable.  I get fooled every time ;-)

 

I have heard about a few buddies who reinstated, and it went HORRIBLY wrong for them, and also a few people for whom the benzos themselves were extremely toxic.  I would never have done it if I had those experiences.

 

It was not an easy decision for me, but the further along I got, the sicker I was getting, and I kept saying "if I get sicker one more time, I am taking my chances with Valium."  I got sicker at least 4 times after having said that, the last time resulting in my losing my job.  That was when I finally said uncle.  Both my wife and I figured at that point I had nothing else to lose.

 

You are both kind, and understanding, and equally importantly, reasonable.

 

Thank you both.  I truly hope that somehow, you get a level of neurology that allow allows you peace and maybe even a little joy :-)

 

Ramcon1

[[...]]

Agree with Betsy.  It made me very uncomfortable feeling you thought you had to explain or justify your actions to anyone.  Only you and you alone know what you are dealing with, your level of suffering, and how it is affecting your life, and shouldn't feel criticized for making your own adult decisions.  Or you being blamed and scolded for not heeding someone's advice, sounds rather funny to me, for many different reasons.

 

Agree also with Marigold and FG that it's great to be able to have open discussion and respectful debate.  People are naturally going to have their own individual experiences and form their own viewpoints/thoughts/opinions.  Sprinkle in the various personalities and we have all the ingredients for a very lively and entertaining party.   

 

Thank you for your honesty and sharing your experience with us, I'm glad you're seeing a little relief and wish you only the best.

 

 

[[Fl...]]

I believe that as long as someone is informed of the possible outcomes they should be able to make a decision like this without being judged by others. As bad as I have had it I imagine that there are others who have had it worse than I have and I know that other people's life situations are different as well so who am I to say what is right for someone else? All I can do is give my opinion and wish them the best. Ya gotta do what you think is right for YOU cause just like with the whole prescription drug and medical system in general, no one else is really going to be able to look out for you the way you can.

 

 

[[fi...]]

Hi Ramcon!

 

I feel compelled to respond to you and your plight. 

 

I absolutely applaud your effort to listen to your body and take care of yourself by whatever means are available to you.  I think part of the problem when people advise others of what to do or not, they don't take into consideration that persons personal means.  These always include spiritual, emotional, mental, physical and financial.  What I'm saying is that I can offer advice that says eat better or take vitamins, minerals and herbs.  I can even say do yoga go to the gym and or meditate.  We can then have a back and forth about how you don't have the money for a gym or you are a quadriplegic and can't do yoga.  Our back and forth can go on endlessly because at the end of the day I don't know you, have never met you and have no idea what your actual means is.  These are the absolute bare bones and facts of everyone's situation in this "process".

 

This is where I genuinely applaud you.  Despite what anyone has said or suggested, you took into consideration all of your means and executed the very best decision for you.  You then openly and honestly stated what your course of action was and is and why it's the best for you.  You owe none of us an explanation of any kind for any reason.  The reason you would share and have is because you are genuine and are asking for genuine because you give genuine.  You honestly can do no more for yourself or anyone else.  I certainly wouldn't and am not asking more of you.  Thank you for what you have given us in abundance - your truth!

 

On the the thin skinned note and heated debate note - I also agree with you.  I am astonished that people choose a link to read and participate in and then complain they were triggered or affected somehow.  They logged in to the site.  They clicked on whatever links they wanted.  They and they alone caused there state to be altered.  There is a total lack of personal responsibility and accountability on this planet right now. This utter irresponsibility is the most dangerous state of being next to fear, right now happening globally on this planet.  It terrifies me quite frankly.

 

Also, I absolutely agree with you with "try something"!  If you are suffering, only you can fix that for you.  I absolutely believe in quality of life over quantity of life.  That is my own personal position and view point for myself.  If someone wants quantity, good I support that for them - not for myself.  You decided for yourself that you were not going to continue in misery and consequences.  You decided you were going to find a way to change your situation and accomplished that!  Bravo!  I am genuinely proud of you and happy for you.  Not just because you took responsibility for yourself but also because you shared that you did it.  You own it!  Excellent!  You are doing what a mature, responsible, genuine adult can do and should do.

 

Lastly, I just really want you to know that you and your thoughts and actions are not alone.  Your thinking is not broken.  I live my life the same way.  I believe you are thriving to the best of your ability versus just surviving.  You had the courage to achieve that for yourself and I applaud that.  By the way even if you failed miserably at your attempt/reinstatement, my thoughts, feelings and words would not change in the least - I too am genuine.  If you failed, I would still say all this and ask what your means are to help you find and try the next xx, yy and zz!

 

Sending you love, light and peace,

Fifi

 

[[be...]]

Ramcon:

 

Nobody has to live your life but yourself. So only you know what is best for you. I'm sure there are/were other members here who decided to stick with the benzos, so you are not alone. This is not a one-size-fits-all thing. If I were in such bad shape, I would consider doing the same. My best to you.

 

Betsy

 

 

[[ra...]]

You have all been kind in your replies.  You saw what I was trying to accomplish, and appreciated that I shared it.  I appreciate your appreciation ;-)

 

I have been a member of this board now for over 5 years.  I crossed over and tapered.  I am certain I shot myself in the foot with alcohol for a couple of years, thinking I was healing.  Maybe if I had not done that, I would have been well without having to reinstate, or maybe I just would have had to reinstate sooner.

 

I have posted many times that the difference between hope and despair is anxiety.  So many of us who have neurological damage from years of use end up with chemical anxiety.  I can dig deep and put up with an awful lot, but not that.  I just could not deal with the anxiety and panic.  Did Ativan cause it?  Certainly, as before this I literally did not know what anxiety was.  Did alcohol make it worse.  Probably.  But I cannot move backward, I can only move forward.

 

I posted what I did to vent a bit, but also to let others know that if you are in year 4 and your life is hell, you might want to look for help.  AND do not blame doctors or big pharma or anyone else but your parents for the genes you got.

 

Be well and good luck,

 

ramcon1