How Attempts to Distance from the Term Addiction Can Result in Harm

[Guest [jc...]]

This whole thing is disturbing and I, and I'm sure most others who are following it, would like it to stop.

[[Di...]]

 

There's so much anger here, and who better to take it out on than someone who says she's well?  You'd think people would value the point of view of someone who's made it through, but I think the underlying resentment, combined with benzo rage and irritation looking for a target, completely overrides that notion.  People seem happier to be left with the blind leading the blind.

 

I'm well, and I post a lot of advice and suggestions which people seem to value, and I don't get any anger from anyone, so that blows that theory. There are also a lot of other people here who are also healed, and they come here to help, advise and support, and they don't get the anger you get either. So maybe it's all in the approach and the delivery.

 

Maybe you, Megan, should take a long hard look at how you and the other mods have always looked away while people took pot shots at me.  Is it possible you resent my healing without toeing every BB board line?

 

I see a lot of looking away, but it's nothing to do with other people. Hopefully enough chances have been given now.

 

Watch me walk away...and out into the light.

 

Bye.

[[4G...]]

You helped me, Diaz Pam and it was much appreciated. I'm sure most of us try to help others walking along similar paths. That's what it's all about. I don't really care if I'm an addict or Mickey Mouse as long as I get better and can help others along the way. Or maybe I'm just a simpleton....

 

[[Di...]]

That's what it's all about for most of us here Gilly. We don't need to keep drawing attention to ourselves by constantly telling everyone how clever we are or how much support we give. We just get on with being here without constantly needing to bolster ourselves by referring to all the PMs we get. Yeah well, I’ve had quite a few PMs too on this subject lately, and I think they’re probably a lot different to the PMs LJ is supposedly getting…… 

[[Ch...]]

I would suggest anyone disturbed by the thread stop following it. 

 

If the sniping back and forth continues, we'll lock the thread.  We're getting too many reports about it and wasting too much time with this pettiness.

[[Di...]]

It's never my intention to be sniping at anyone, but simply to respond to some comments that are made. I haven't made any comments since Page 1, however I'm done. This pointless thread has already wasted too much time.

[Guest [mu...]]

Interesting thread.

 

Here's the thing: most addicts are also physically dependent, but not all of those who are physically dependent are also addicts.

 

To me, for people to want to claim the high moral ground of distancing themselves from "true addicts" is to necessarily be judging all the people whose brains got highjacked by a different route than theirs did.  You want to be sure everyone knows you're not like them, right?  And that would be because you look down on them, certainly not because you think they're superior.

 

Interestingly, I had the exact opposite experience of this. In early withdrawal, I was advised by my therapist to attend a specific local AA group to help cope with my experience. He suggested this not because he thinks I'm an addict (he specializes in addiction, and does not believe that I am one), but because he thought that I would benefit from the non-judgmental atmosphere of others who have also gone through incredibly difficult times. It was also an excellent distraction and source of hope during my darkest days. (I should note that this was a very unique and intelligent "11th step" AA group - I'm told that most groups are not like the one that I attended.)

 

When I first went to meetings, I would distinguish myself from the others as being "physically dependent" (as in, "hi, my name is M and I was physically dependent on klonopin.") After a few weeks of this, I started calling myself an addict, solely as a form of solidarity between myself and everyone else there (I didn't like the fact that I was distancing myself from them and putting myself in a different, less taboo category.) But in the end, I changed my position. After many sundays spent listening to the stories of true addicts, I realized I was doing both them and myself a disservice by not acknowledging our different experiences. I have absolutely no idea what it is like to desperately crave a substance in the way that addicts do. I have never felt powerless over drugs or alcohol, or hurt others (or myself) in order to continue supporting my addiction. I never abused klonopin, and do not crave it. After awhile, I realized that my challenges were very different from the challenges of addicts. Put simply, our stories are not the same.

 

When someone at AA recounted a binge or craving story, everyone in the circle nodded their heads in the "I've been there too" solidarity that only fellow addicts can understand. Meanwhile I sat there feeling like an outsider to their unique struggle, like I didn't belong. This isn't about judgement, but about a different experience entirely. So when the people at AA heard me start to use the term "addict," I was understandably badgered to attend more meetings and to get a sponsor to make sure I didn't "relapse." I was told I would never heal if I didn't do the 12 steps. Because I used the wrong language, they failed to comprehend the difference in my situation, and unfortunately I was too brain-dead at the time to clarify it any further. I'll also add that many of the group members were on psych meds that they felt they "needed," and thus were unable to really have an objective view of the harm they had caused me. Still, I felt honored to listen to and learn from the people I met at AA, and I would never judge or look down upon anyone with a true addiction (in fact, I find recovered addicts to be some of the most incredible people I've ever met, and I hope to include my siblings in that category someday.) But I really couldn't relate to them, nor them to me. So after awhile, I stopped going.

 

The articles that FloridaGuy provided make excellent points. Language is indeed important, as is the appropriate treatment for the appropriate need. I'm sure we'd all love a real life support group for this, as well as medical and societal recognition to our unique plight. I personally don't believe we'll find that until we start using the appropriate words.

 

 

* edited later for a confusing typo *

[[Mo...]]

Interesting thread.

 

Here's the thing: most addicts are also physically dependent, but not all of those who are physically dependent are also addicts.

 

To me, for people to want to claim the high moral ground of distancing themselves from "true addicts" is to necessarily be judging all the people whose brains got highjacked by a different route than theirs did.  You want to be sure everyone knows you're not like them, right?  And that would be because you look down on them, certainly not because you think they're superior.

 

Interestingly, I had the exact opposite experience of this. In early withdrawal, I was advised by my therapist to attend a specific local AA group to help cope with my experience. He suggested this not because he thinks I'm an addict (he specializes in addiction, and does not believe that I am not one), but because he thought that I would benefit from the non-judgmental atmosphere of others who have also gone through incredibly difficult times. It was also an excellent distraction and source of hope during my darkest days. (I should note that this was a very unique and intelligent "11th step" AA group - I'm told that most groups are not like the one that I attended.)

 

When I first went to meetings, I would distinguish myself from the others as being "physically dependent" (as in, "hi, my name is M and I was physically dependent on klonopin.") After a few weeks of this, I started calling myself an addict, solely as a form of solidarity between myself and everyone else there (I didn't like the fact that I was distancing myself from them and putting myself in a different, less taboo category.) But in the end, I changed my position. After many sundays spent listening to the stories of true addicts, I realized I was doing both them and myself a disservice by not acknowledging our different experiences. I have absolutely no idea what it is like to desperately crave a substance in the way that addicts do. I have never felt powerless over drugs or alcohol, or hurt others (or myself) in order to continue supporting my addiction. I never abused klonopin, and do not crave it. After awhile, I realized that my challenges were very different from the challenges of addicts. Put simply, our stories are not the same.

 

When someone at AA recounted a binge or craving story, everyone in the circle nodded their heads in the "I've been there too" solidarity that only fellow addicts can understand. Meanwhile I sat there feeling like an outsider to their unique struggle, like I didn't belong. This isn't about judgement, but about a different experience entirely. So when the people at AA heard me start to use the term "addict," I was understandably badgered to attend more meetings and to get a sponsor to make sure I didn't "relapse." I was told I would never heal if I didn't do the 12 steps. Because I used the wrong language, they failed to comprehend the difference in my situation, and unfortunately I was too brain-dead at the time to clarify it any further. I'll also add that many of the group members were on psych meds that they felt they "needed," and thus were unable to really have an objective view of the harm they had caused me. Still, I felt honored to listen to and learn from the people I met at AA, and I would never judge or look down upon anyone with a true addiction (in fact, I find recovered addicts to be some of the most incredible people I've ever met, and I hope to include my siblings in that category someday.) But I really couldn't relate to them, nor them to me. So after awhile, I stopped going.

 

The articles that FloridaGuy provided make excellent points. Language is indeed important, as is the appropriate treatment for the appropriate need. I'm sure we'd all love a real life support group for this, as well as medical and societal recognition to our unique plight. I personally don't believe we'll find that until we start using the appropriate words.

 

Congrats....great post.

[[Fl...]]

FG--please stop worrying about what I think, which you mostly seem to have twisted anyway.  I'm not worrying about what YOU think.  Just move forward with your own healing.  When you're well, you'll make a great crusader for improved treatment for people getting off of benzos.

 

I'm not worried about what you think, I am worried about what you preach. It is counterproductive to the cause, it perpetuates the ignorance that landed some of us here in the first place and on some level you must be aware of this because you refuse to answer any questions, counter any points or even post anything that backs up your claim.

 

Not only that but the article I posted illustrates in detail why the opposite is true, and you refuse to read it. If I felt so strongly about something and someone posted an article that went against that I would be chomping at the bit to dig into it so I could present an intelligent counterargument.

 

All that is left to assume is that you not only have nothing to back up what you are saying, but you really don't believe it yourself.

[[Ch...]]

Whoops, I thought I was in the other thread, "Mental vs Physical Addiction." Moving over there now....

 

Do you know how to do this?  If not, I'll be happy to move it for you. 

[Guest [mu...]]

Just did it, thanks This thread is crazy, I'm getting out!

[[Ch...]]

Just did it, thanks This thread is crazy, I'm getting out!

 

Minor skirmish... but I don't blame you a bit.

[[Sh...]]

Remember that 60's book "The Games People Play?"  Isn't one of the games where someone says or does something controversial or provocative and then stands back to watch the ensuing uproar, reengaging occasionally to keep things stirred up?  Anyone?  For some reason, that just popped into my head.  As I remember, the only way to deal with that game was to just never ever engage.

 

XX

She

[[wh...]]

 

 

 

Finally, I think the truly sad part about the semantics issue is that treating addicts with distain, as our society does, is just a poor excuse to not face the real social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity, etc, that drive people to turn to substances to escape from their reality, whether those substances are legally prescribed or not.

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone even read that part....

 

BB's is at times a good mirror of our messed up society.

 

Taking a break from this place as of today.

[[...]]

Interesting thread.

 

Here's the thing: most addicts are also physically dependent, but not all of those who are physically dependent are also addicts.

 

 

Interestingly, I had the exact opposite experience of this. In early withdrawal, I was advised by my therapist to attend a specific local AA group to help cope with my experience. He suggested this not because he thinks I'm an addict (he specializes in addiction, and does not believe that I am one), but because he thought that I would benefit from the non-judgmental atmosphere of others who have also gone through incredibly difficult times. It was also an excellent distraction and source of hope during my darkest days. (I should note that this was a very unique and intelligent "11th step" AA group - I'm told that most groups are not like the one that I attended.)

 

When I first went to meetings, I would distinguish myself from the others as being "physically dependent" (as in, "hi, my name is M and I was physically dependent on klonopin.") After a few weeks of this, I started calling myself an addict, solely as a form of solidarity between myself and everyone else there (I didn't like the fact that I was distancing myself from them and putting myself in a different, less taboo category.) But in the end, I changed my position. After many sundays spent listening to the stories of true addicts, I realized I was doing both them and myself a disservice by not acknowledging our different experiences. I have absolutely no idea what it is like to desperately crave a substance in the way that addicts do. I have never felt powerless over drugs or alcohol, or hurt others (or myself) in order to continue supporting my addiction. I never abused klonopin, and do not crave it. After awhile, I realized that my challenges were very different from the challenges of addicts. Put simply, our stories are not the same.

 

When someone at AA recounted a binge or craving story, everyone in the circle nodded their heads in the "I've been there too" solidarity that only fellow addicts can understand. Meanwhile I sat there feeling like an outsider to their unique struggle, like I didn't belong. This isn't about judgement, but about a different experience entirely. So when the people at AA heard me start to use the term "addict," I was understandably badgered to attend more meetings and to get a sponsor to make sure I didn't "relapse." I was told I would never heal if I didn't do the 12 steps. Because I used the wrong language, they failed to comprehend the difference in my situation, and unfortunately I was too brain-dead at the time to clarify it any further. I'll also add that many of the group members were on psych meds that they felt they "needed," and thus were unable to really have an objective view of the harm they had caused me. Still, I felt honored to listen to and learn from the people I met at AA, and I would never judge or look down upon anyone with a true addiction (in fact, I find recovered addicts to be some of the most incredible people I've ever met, and I hope to include my siblings in that category someday.) But I really couldn't relate to them, nor them to me. So after awhile, I stopped going.

 

The articles that FloridaGuy provided make excellent points. Language is indeed important, as is the appropriate treatment for the appropriate need. I'm sure we'd all love a real life support group for this, as well as medical and societal recognition to our unique plight. I personally don't believe we'll find that until we start using the appropriate words.

 

 

* edited later for a confusing typo *

 

 

This is a fantastic post.     

 

I am firmly in the camp that I am 'physically dependant' as opposed to 'addicted'.  I use the term addicted with the full spectrum of stigma, and craving satisfaction, commonly associated with the word.

 

I've gotten high for fun and pleasure on many substances in my life, none of which were z-drugs or benzos.  Coming from someone who has done his fair share of experimenting, it's my opinion that there really isn't any 'high' to be had, compared to all your other options of prescription and illicit drugs out there.  There's no pleasure in benzos compared to 'real' highs.

 

During my experimentation I have had friends get caught in the traps of true addiction along the way.  Addiction to the point of requiring rehab and counseling in some cases.  I agree that putting myself in their camp dilutes their accomplishments.

 

I compare people who take benzo and become physically dependant to people who take beta-blockers and become physically dependant on those.  The basic idea is the same.  The bodies ability to recover from damage and down regulation caused by benzo's however is excruciatingly slow so our suffering goes on and on. It also more closely resembles that of true addiction in terms of symptoms.

 

I am not, and have never been, an addict. 

 

I am physically dependant.

[[...]]

 

 

 

Finally, I think the truly sad part about the semantics issue is that treating addicts with distain, as our society does, is just a poor excuse to not face the real , etc, that drive people to turn to substances to escape from their reality, whether those substances are legally prescribed or not. social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone even read that part....

 

BB's is at times a good mirror of our messed up society.

 

Taking a break from this place as of today.

 

I don't agree with the quote.    Addiction can affect ALL members of society.  I've seen highly educated, wealthy, happy people getting high for fun and end up in the throws of addiction because they weren't careful. 

 

Some people truly just want to get high for fun - myself included in my raving days.  I was raving in the late 90's/early 2000's.  There were very expensive fashions, event tickets, music media,  and recreational drugs in this scene.  None of it lended itself to the impoverished demographic.  These were, usually middle class and better people in this scene.  kid's as young as 14 all the way up to 35 at these events.  Some paying their own way like myself and friends, but some having mom and dad unknowingly foot the bill (the younger age groups).

 

I wasn't running away from anything or trying to supress my 'mundane' life temporarily.  Some people just want to get high for fun because they like the feeling.  I was accentuating and celebrating my success in life so far. 

 

I'd challenge anyone who has a seemingly text-book perfect life, to take a dose of mdma and tell me they don't feel great while they were on it!  Even the people that barf during their high off that stuff say it was the most incredible puke they've ever had!  LOL.

 

I make absolutely NO apologies for my recreational drug use in my early 20's.  While some of my peer group unfortunately got themselves into trouble with some of these substances. 

 

So again, I don't agree with the statement quoted above.  I feel addiction is one of those horrible things that seems to be able to transcend "social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity".

 

Addiction is an equal opportunity 'world of hurt'.

 

I on the other hand, didn't hurt anybody, didn't kill anybody, paid all my bills, never lost one fucking job, laughed my ass off, and went about my day. 

 

sorry.

 

 

[[Di...]]

 

 

 

Finally, I think the truly sad part about the semantics issue is that treating addicts with distain, as our society does, is just a poor excuse to not face the real social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity, etc, that drive people to turn to substances to escape from their reality, whether those substances are legally prescribed or not.

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone even read that part....

 

BB's is at times a good mirror of our messed up society.

 

Taking a break from this place as of today.

 

Yes I read that part, but I didn't want to make any comment at the time, but seeing as you've highlighted it again I will comment.

 

Certainly there is some disdain in society against addicts. However, I think you are implying that there is disdain being shown on BB simply because of this discussion.

 

I'm certainly not putting addicts down simply because I refuse to be called a benzo addict. If I was addicted to something I would say I was addicted. However, I was not, so I'm not going to say I'm something I'm not. It just comes down to the simple fact that there is a definite difference between addiction and dependence, and this is what people just aren't getting. It's got nothing to do with one being better or worse than the other. It's just that there is a difference between the two conditions.

[[MT...]]

So many good points. Thanks for making them FG, Diaz-Pam, Geek, Mods and others. I certainly prefer the term dependent to addict and believe precise language drives how treatment is studied, the research, interventions, and most especially, the attitudes. I find it quite sad that there is a lack of compassion in society at large, but especially in the medical community about dependence and addiction.

 

I remember what it was like when AIDS/HIV first came out. Patients were treated horribly (I was working as an RN when it first was coming into awareness and witnessed this). People were afraid of HIV and fear leads us to do stupid, hurtful things. Look at how far we've come with that disease. We still have a way to go but it's progress. There wasn't much progress though until we stopped marginalizing the ill by calling it things like the Gay Plague. When language changed, attitudes and treatment changed. I see a lot of parallels here. People are afraid of experiencing addiction *and* being perceived as one who suffers from addiction. Regardless of how it happened, we all need compassion.

[[wh...]]

 

 

 

 

Certainly there is some disdain in society against addicts. However, I think you are implying that there is disdain being shown on BB simply because of this discussion.

 

 

 

Finally, I think the truly sad part about the semantics issue is that treating addicts with distain, as our society does, is just a poor excuse to not face the real social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity, etc, that drive people to turn to substances to escape from their reality, whether those substances are legally prescribed or not.

 

No, that was not what I was implying.

 

Peace out.

 

[[wh...]]

Not real good at quoting on here, obviously.

 

It's not that important anyway.

 

Peace out.

 

 

[[Ch...]]

I'm not going to comment on the original post because I think to do so would only stir the embers ...

 

However, I would like to say that FinallyJoining is my friend. She's nice to me and I hold her in pretty high esteem.

 

I don't always agree with her opinions and don't suppose she always agrees with mine but there's a mutual respect and I appreciate that she occasionally challenges my thinking. I need that.

 

I'm too sick and tired now to get involved in this but I do feel the need to speak up for a friend.

 

Chinook

 

[[Se...]]

Chinook,

 

I've stayed away from this thread until now as well.  I have an intense dislike of threads that descend into personal attacks on the original posters.  I have also seen a disturbing trend over the years that I have been here to push out people who are mostly healed.

 

Chewing the Fat is meant to be a part of the forum where we can posit theories and discuss aspects of benzo withdrawal not directly related to support.  I believe that this discussion - whether or not you agree on the merits of FinallyJoining's observations - was entirely within the scope of this mandate.

 

Furthermore, FinallyJoining is also a friend of mine from her time on the boards.  Time and time again, I have found her to be helpful, insightful and caring towards so many others.  She seldom asks for support for herself.  In this vein, we are kindred spirits.  I've spent a lot of time on the boards and have never asked for support, I've only ever come here to offer support to others.  She often presents a point of view that challenges the status quo but her intentions are always kind.

 

I was very disturbed by the personal attacks and frankly bullying that has gone on here.  I won't belabour this point, but I believe that some apologies are in order.

 

For those of us who are substantially healed to take time out of our lives to come back to the boards is critical, in my estimation, to the functioning of this forum.  Individuals who do so should be treated with respect.  We collectively owe them a huge debt.  If not for the wisdom of those who went before us, exactly where would we collectively be?

 

Kindness is my religion.  FinallyJoining63 is one of the good ones and her insights and support should be welcomed.  I hope she stays on BenzoBuddies but I can truly say, after reading through some of these posts, that I sincerely understand if she leaves.  And that would be a very great loss.

 

SS

 

 

[[fa...]]

Don't leave, FJ!!

 

I support and love you!!!

 

...but, then again, I'm absolutely bats**t insane, bonkers, loopy, crazy, and hopelessly out of my mind...

[[be...]]

FJ:

 

I have been a published writer for 34 years and have never thought to write things like this when I am "off duty." I compartmentalize. Can you? From your numerous posts and replies I think you are actually looking for a fight.

[[Fi...]]

FJ:

 

I have been a published writer for 34 years and have never thought to write things like this when I am "off duty." I compartmentalize. Can you? From your numerous posts and replies I think you are actually looking for a fight.

 

Not sure what you mean by "things like this," but I'm pretty sure I haven't devoted the time to posting as many words as you  have on BB.  And I'm not sure what you mean by "compartmentalizing."  No, I'm not looking for a fight, and since I thought this thread had mercifully died, coming back at this point and posting this really looks to me like YOU are the one looking for the fight.  You will have to find somebody else to fight with!