How Attempts to Distance from the Term Addiction Can Result in Harm

[[Fi...]]

Frotob, you're talking to me, I presume?  I DON'T care what people call themselves and I hate what you had to go through.  It's just not right.  I tried to get help and advice at a rehab place but nothing doing unless I signed up and went in-patient, starting with a pee test.  Since I had been clean of everything for over a year, I couldn't see paying them prove what I already knew.  I just wanted advice.  I wanted to hear how long it takes to feel well after you've gotten clean of opioids.  Nobody could ever tell me.  Apparently few people ever stay off opioids long enough to find out.

 

I relate to your story because we were both just trying to get help and yet the help wasn't tailored to people like us.  People addicted in the way that we were.  The system--or complete lack of it--sucks.

 

What I can't seem to get across to people is that I think contributing to the stigma of addiction in general just makes it harder for everybody to get the help they need.  People's energy goes into assuring themselves they're not addicts, and as long as they can comfort themselves with that, they're able to ignore the realities of what  their drug protocol is doing to them.  People stay on opioids way past the point where they're helping, insisting they are not addicts, so that makes it okay.  The fact that the drugs are actually HURTING them becomes beside the point.

 

I'll say it again--this is more a thought pattern I've seen NOT here on the board.  People here for the most part know they want off their benzos and are just trying to do it.

 

But this was all triggered for me by a PM exchange yesterday with someone who came on just exploring the board.  The details of our exchange would illustrate my point perfectly, but I'm sure if I started spilling it, I would get my hand spanked for breaking privacy rules.

 

I've really tried my best to explain my feelings on this, folks, and don't have anything more to say on the subject.  You don't have to agree with me, but no more name-calling, please.  There's so much  free-floating anger on the BB board, and it gets tiring, being a handy target. 

 

I'm already annoyed with myself for going against what the post-a-note on my computer says--"Guard your time, please!"-- but you, Frotob, sounded like a thoughtful person deserving of a thoughtful response. 

[[Fr...]]

Yes I have nothing else to add, I didn't mean it as a personal callout to you FinallyJoining63. I do agree that the stigma associated with addicts needs to be undone. They're people just like us most have just made bad decisions or are self medicating due to outside stresses that the average person can't relate with. Others are just enjoying the party. . . Whichever the cause these people should be given our sympathy.

 

I do think there needs to be some differential treatment in cases where the person was not abusing and does not have a problem managing their medication themselves. . . but really only when the medical community intervenes. I'd be rather upset by anyone referring to anyone else as a "nasty addict". However, people should take words for what they are. Just because I prefer the term "chemically dependent" doesn't mean I would tear up if a random person on the internet decided I was a nasty no good addict. I define who I am and no one else does.

[[Fi...]]

I agree with everything you say.  The medical establishment needs to come up with new treatment modalities for people like us.  In being defined as "only physically dependent," I got no treatment or help whatsoever.  If I looked to the addiction model, there was no help either since the programs offered only policing, which I didn't need.

 

Best of all, of course, doctors need to get educated about the ramifications of prescribing both opioids and benzos so freely.  Addiction is surely easier to prevent than to cure.

[[Sh...]]

The answer is not hoping what the medical community "calls" us.  Forget that.  Why give them more power?  Why start relying on them for anything?  The answer is knowing not to get here in the first place.  Someone else, maybe from here, even,will rise up to help.  Hey the medical community, in general doesn't care about nutrition, the majority aren't getting on the bandwagon on this one...

 

I am sorry for the drug seeking addict  on this stuff.  Lord knows they are here.  Someday the conventional wisdom here "should" become  common sense.  In the meantime, just taper, and worry about all the other junk later.  Some wisdom and help will come out of this, probably not through the medical community.  Don't hold your breath...

 

I never understood the point of the first post here, but  oh well, good stuff here. 

 

I do think if you are an "accidental addict", like me, you don't need help from the medical community. 

 

And I don't care what you call me, but I know a true addiction wouldn't be something I was tempted to stop too quickly, like this junk. ...Anyway,  if you think you are a hopeless addict, you will behave as one.  Glad I didn't go there.

 

Interesting convo...

[[Bl...]]

 

Speaking for myself, I only dwell on the semantics of the word addiction versus the word dependence when I read comments on this subject on BB. Otherwise, I am way too sick to sit around wondering how to convince my doctors or anyone else that I am not an addict.

 

And to clarify; my definition of addict is someone who will go to great lengths to find their drug of choice, with the sole intent to use that drug for the purpose of receiving some form of pleasure.

 

And I mean no disrespect to someone who has an addiction problem…I have been there too, and fully understand how it feels to crave a drug for the purpose of escape/"pleasure." It is VERY difficult to break a true addiction, since the underlying issues of addiction are complex.

 

I never took ambien, a z-drug, nor ativan, a benzo, for the purpose of feeling pleasure or high. And, I actually never felt any sensation of being high on either drug. The irony of it all...given how I was treated because of these drugs.

 

There may be a small percent of people who seek benzos to get high, and who as a consequence have formed an addiction to them.

 

I know what it feels like to have a doctor state that “addiction is your problem” and, or “you are a drug seeker,” both of which are ludicrous accusations. I find that such statements were used to make me feel like I had a control issue with prescribed drugs, and that it was up to me to clean up my act.

 

In other words, I needed to learn self control as regards my “so called” drug seeking addiction. I would also like to add that the doctors who made these baseless accusations worked for the VA. The doctor (psychologist) who indicated I was "drug seeking" in reference to ativan and ambien did not say that to my face....he wrote it down in a write-up for an active claim I have with the VA.

 

But, my guess is, doctors outside the VA system can be equally uneducated on the difference between the terms addiction and physiological dependence. Who knows why...it seems basic.

BlueRose

[[wh...]]

FJ,

 

I just took a look at the "You are the Placebo" book. Thank you for sharing that. What a great book! I know I am suffering from the same old self defeating thoughts looping around and around in my head, and it's been made infinitely worse as I struggle to heal.

 

I am amazed how difficult sticking to my resolutions has been, and just reading the summary of the book is helping to understand! Anyway, it's a great suggestion.

 

Finally, I think the truly sad part about the semantics issue is that treating addicts with distain, as our society does, is just a poor excuse to not face the real social issues of poverty, inequality, lack of education/opportunity, etc, that drive people to turn to substances to escape from their reality, whether those substances are legally prescribed or not.

 

I too met some of the nicest "addicts"  in the world when I was in the psych unit, and what I learned from them has opened my eyes, forever. 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Who-am-I--

 

"I just took a look at the "You are the Placebo" book. Thank you for sharing that. What a great book! I know I am suffering from the same old self defeating thoughts looping around and around in my head, and it's been made infinitely worse as I struggle to heal."

 

I'm glad you're checking out that book.  I have to say that as I get in the quantum physics part,  I'm having a harder time following the scientific principles, not having much of a mind for science, but the basic ideas are sticking with me.

 

I look around and see people in my life and on the board neatly illustrating both the placebo effect of positive thought as well as the nocebo effect.

 

I think positive thought takes PRACTICE, but as people say (and he repeats in the book) the neurons (or whatever ) that fire together, wire together.  The physical effects of withdrawal are definitely real, not "all in your head," but there's more than one way to think about them.

 

Good luck.  You're getting there!

 

Love,

FJ

 

[Guest [jc...]]

 

Speaking for myself, I only dwell on the semantics of the word addiction versus the word dependence when I read comments on this subject on BB. Otherwise, I am way too sick to sit around wondering how to convince my doctors or anyone else that I am not an addict.

 

And to clarify; my definition of addict is someone who will go to great lengths to find their drug of choice, with the sole intent to use that drug for the purpose of receiving some form of pleasure.

 

And I mean no disrespect to someone who has an addiction problem…I have been there too, and fully understand how it feels to crave a drug for the purpose of escape/"pleasure." It is VERY difficult to break a true addiction, since the underlying issues of addiction are complex.

 

I never took ambien, a z-drug, nor ativan, a benzo, for the purpose of feeling pleasure or high. And, I actually never felt any sensation of being high on either drug. The irony of it all...given how I was treated because of these drugs.

 

There may be a small percent of people who seek benzos to get high, and who as a consequence have formed an addiction to them.

 

I know what it feels like to have a doctor state that “addiction is your problem” and, or “you are a drug seeker,” both of which are ludicrous accusations. I find that such statements were used to make me feel like I had a control issue with prescribed drugs, and that it was up to me to clean up my act.

 

In other words, I needed to learn self control as regards my “so called” drug seeking addiction. I would also like to add that the doctors who made these baseless accusations worked for the VA. The doctor (psychologist) who indicated I was "drug seeking" in reference to ativan and ambien did not say that to my face....he wrote it down in a write-up for an active claim I have with the VA.

 

But, my guess is, doctors outside the VA system can be equally uneducated on the difference between the terms addiction and physiological dependence. Who knows why...it seems basic.

BlueRose

 

Exactly!

[[Bl...]]

I know what it feels like to have a doctor state that “addiction is your problem” and, or “you are a drug seeker,” both of which are ludicrous accusations. I find that such statements were used to make me feel like I had a control issue with prescribed drugs, and that it was up to me to clean up my act.

 

In other words, I needed to learn self control as regards my “so called” drug seeking addiction. I would also like to add that the doctors who made these baseless accusations worked for the VA. The doctor (psychologist) who indicated I was "drug seeking" in reference to ativan and ambien did not say that to my face....he wrote it down in a writeup for an active claim I have with the VA.

BlueRose

Exactly!

 

jc215--Just to further clarify this sad chapter in my life.......At the time I was seen by that particular VA Psychologist in consideration of my VA claim, I was actually in the process of tapering from ativan….ambien would soon follow.

 

Yet, this Psychologist made sure that the phrase “drug seeker” was carefully placed in his writeup on me, that would then, in part, serve to reflect his professional assessment of my condition…PTSD. What a joke!! I was SHOCKED when I saw what he had written.

 

An ancient wise statement clearly assesses the system we live in: “What is crooked cannot be made straight.”

BlueRose

[[Fl...]]

FG--this is not about me at all.  During my ordeal I was treated as a person with "merely physical dependence" and also as a drug-seeking addict.  Neither helped.  Nothing would heal me but time.

 

It is generally accepted in the benzo community that being yanked off of the drugs quickly is the best way to set someone up for a painful and possibly protracted withdrawal. What gets me is that you acknowledge that current treatment is substandard, yet you would prefer that benzo victims be lumped into the same category as people who have addiction issues, which pretty much ensures that this is never going to change.

 

As mentioned in the article I linked to, "language dictates treatment". I can assure you that your "everyone is an addict, it's all semantics" crusade will result in more benzo victims being mistreated in the future. I'm not sure how you reconcile your desire to end opiate addiction stigma at the expense of people who have been damaged by benzodiazepines but I can assure you that conflating these two separate issues has negative consequences for the very people who you claim to be helping.

[[Fi...]]

FG--please stop worrying about what I think, which you mostly seem to have twisted anyway.  I'm not worrying about what YOU think.  Just move forward with your own healing.  When you're well, you'll make a great crusader for improved treatment for people getting off of benzos.

[[Mo...]]

FG--please stop worrying about what I think, which you mostly seem to have twisted anyway.  I'm not worrying about what YOU think.  Just move forward with your own healing.  When you're well, you'll make a great crusader for improved treatment for people getting off of benzos.

 

Looks like you couldn't even be bothered to read the article FG posted.

Shame, could have been an interesting discussion......obviously you aren't up

to it.

 

 

 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Oh, get off my case, Morreweg.  I'm so tired of you.  Yeah, that's right, I didn't read his articles.  Bet he didn't read the book I suggested either.

 

I'm well and going out to lunch so don't have time for this BS.

[[li...]]

FJ, advocating the lack of a distinction between addiction and dependence is selfish.  You talk about an 'addicted brain'. What does that mean, a 'brain' that craves a drug or a brain that depends on a drug to avoid hellish withdrawal/illness ?

I think that at this point no matter what anyone says, you've made up your mind.

 

Do you attend meetings of NA ?

[[Fi...]]

I will add "selfish" to the names I've been called here.

[[fi...]]

You know I think everyone needs to keep these three points in mind before they engage with FinallyJoining63  any further:

 

1.  She has repeatedly stated she is well.

2.  She has repeatedly stated she joined this forum because she believed that healed people were few and far between and she therefore had something to offer.

2.  She has repeatedly stated she is writing a book on this very topic.

 

Therefore, the following conclusions can only be arrived at:

 

Everything she does and says on this forum is for the purposes of her book.  She has made it abundantly clear that she doesn't care what anyone else's personal experiences are as long as they don't align with her thoughts, beliefs and experiences.  We are all just a means to an end.

 

People who are well get on with their lives, they don't join a forum AFTER they are well.  This forum's primary purpose is for support getting off.  Yes a whole lot of other things too.

 

She is by no means an expert and the advice she is so freely dolling out is not only toxic to me but toxic to everyone else.  When she asks questions about you, she isn't doing it to help you, she is doing it for her book.  Opening yourself up to this will prove to be very damaging when you don't know it's her motive.  She doesn't care about you that is clear.

 

So please everyone for your sake stop engaging with her and her nonsense!!

 

PS - based on everything she has divulged, I question whether or not she ever had a problem with Benzo's or Opiates to begin with.

[[Fi...]]

Wow.  Seriously, wow.  This takes me right back to the playground in grade school.  You should know that people who tried to bully me for being the smartest kid in the class didn't get very far with it then, either. 

 

[[Fi...]]

Fiona--I flagged your post to the mods.  It obviously breaks the rule on personal attack, but that's not what creeps me out.  It's that I don't even know who you are and where this vitriol came from.  Especially somebody with a handle like "Sending out Light and Love to Everyone Always." 

 

Every last thing you said about me is a lie, but I'm not on trial here.  I don't owe you any answers.  I especially don't care to write anything out for somebody who sounds like a troll.

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Fiona--I flagged your post to the mods.  It obviously breaks the rule on personal attack, but that's not what creeps me out.  It's that I don't even know who you are and where this vitriol came from.  Especially somebody with a handle like "Sending out Light and Love to Everyone Always." 

 

Every last thing you said about me is a lie, but I'm not on trial here.  I don't owe you any answers.  I especially don't care to write anything out for somebody who sounds like a troll.

 

Chill it and stop playing games here please ....folks don't deserve

this kind of BS.  >

[[Mo...]]

Oh, get off my case, Morreweg.  I'm so tired of you. Yeah, that's right, I didn't read his articles.  Bet he didn't read the book I suggested either.

 

I'm well and going out to lunch so don't have time for this BS.

 

Interesting....very very interesting ! 

[[me...]]

Hello everyone,

 

Well, it looks like this thread has gone off the rails, as we suspected it might.  First, I assume you all know the rule about respecting fellow members, and if you don't (Fiona and others), here it is once again:

 

Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned.

 

Also, FinallyJoining63, I must ask you, do you ever wonder why so many members here don't seem to trust you?  I know you think a lot of yourself, that much is obvious, but do you really think that you're always right and that so many other people are always wrong?  I think you should take a long, hard look at your posts on this forum and the way you treat others here.  What's more, if you're as intelligent as you claim to be, you must have known how controversial this subject matter would be.  It's no surprise people are upset about it.

 

Please, let's either get this thread on track or leave it alone, and maybe it will sink out of sight. 

 

 

[[Fi...]]

Well, Megan, since you ask...Yes, I knew this would be a controversial point of view to take, and I figured people would argue about it.  I DID underestimate the level of animosity that would be directed at me, personally.  Do I wonder why people don't trust me?  Well, for starters, the vitriol spewed here is hardly representative of the entirety of how I'm regarded by many others on the forum, many of whom PM me.  You can believe that or not.  I think if you go check out my other posts, you'll see many others have been glad for the encouragement and advice I've given.  As for the people here, I actually think I have a pretty good handle on why people resent me, but I'm not going to spell it out and I don't worry about it.  I'm not on here to gather "likes."  I never approached participation here as a popularity contest.

 

There's so much anger here, and who better to take it out on than someone who says she's well?  You'd think people would value the point of view of someone who's made it through, but I think the underlying resentment, combined with benzo rage and irritation looking for a target, completely overrides that notion.  People seem happier to be left with the blind leading the blind.

 

Maybe you, Megan, should take a long hard look at how you and the other mods have always looked away while people took pot shots at me.  Is it possible you resent my healing without toeing every BB board line?

 

You say I think I'm intelligent.  I'd put it that I have self-confidence, and I would have to be a complete idiot to allow myself to stew around any longer in the dark, toxic stew of negativity on "Chewing the Fat"--supposedly the place for discussion. 

 

Watch me walk away...and out into the light.

[[Ki...]]

 

There's so much anger here, and who better to take it out on than someone who says she's well?  You'd think people would value the point of view of someone who's made it through, but I think the underlying resentment, combined with benzo rage and irritation looking for a target, completely overrides that notion. 

 

 

Actually, FJ, I don't find there to be much anger on the forum as a whole. Most people are kind, sympathetic and friendly and I would wager that the majority of our members feel the same way.

 

I also believe you couldn't be more wrong that we, non-recovered, members have resentment towards the people who are well. In fact, I find the exact opposite to be true. However, comments like that are why so many members get upset with you. If people resent you it's likely because of the way you speak to them....the way you offer advice and the way you argue when people don't agree. Someone who is well and recovered would only want others to feel safe and understood, wouldn't they?

 

As a writer, you know how to communicate in a way that gets your readers to understand what you're trying to explain, right? You wouldn't want your readers to be offended, angry, feel belittled and to feel you're disigenuous.....that wouldn't be good for sales, right? If you applied those principles to the forum I think you would find your experience here a lot different.

 

 

Maybe you, Megan, should take a long hard look at how you and the other mods have always looked away while people took pot shots at me. 

 

 

As an "other" mod I'd like to clearly state that if you have a problem with the way someone is treating you then please report the post. If rules are being broken, it will be addressed. We don't follow you around the forum making sure people are being nice to you, that simply isn't feasible. And we don't know what we don't know.

 

 

*edit spelling

[[be...]]

:thumbsup:

[[sn...]]

Hello everyone,

 

Well, it looks like this thread has gone off the rails, as we suspected it might.  First, I assume you all know the rule about respecting fellow members, and if you don't (Fiona and others), here it is once again:

 

Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members. Any account created for the purposes of causing arguments and/or ill-feeling will be banned.

 

Also, FinallyJoining63, I must ask you, do you ever wonder why so many members here don't seem to trust you?  I know you think a lot of yourself, that much is obvious, but do you really think that you're always right and that so many other people are always wrong?  I think you should take a long, hard look at your posts on this forum and the way you treat others here.  What's more, if you're as intelligent as you claim to be, you must have known how controversial this subject matter would be.  It's no surprise people are upset about it.

 

Please, let's either get this thread on track or leave it alone, and maybe it will sink out of sight. 

 

You just posted a warning not to do any personal attacks on any of the members, then you personally attack the member?

 

The level of dysfuction displayed on this thread is really impressive, by all involved. The whole group bashing of an obviously troubled member is really touching.

 

Anyway, i just had to chime in. Carry on with the love fest you're all involved in.