Permanent effects of long term benzos?

[[zo...]]

I'm worried about the permanent damage benzos can do to the brain.  I don't know exactly how benzo chemistry works but I get the impression that some brain receptors waste away when you take benzos for a long time.  Then when you stop the benzos, the replacement receptors you grow may not always be as good and the result is long term damage. Is this understanding more or less correct?

 

I am reading the Wikipedia article about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_benzodiazepines.  I know it's silly but I found the Ashton manual made me VERY anxious because it seems to magnify every single possible adverse effect and made me think I could end up getting them all!

 

Are there any recommended resources which discusses the problem of permanent effects? 

 

Please let me know. Thank you.

 

-zoner

[[os...]]

20 years here too... i am not concerning myself with anything long term, i may have cog fog now and then (especially during taper) but i think most repairs itself, it may take time but i think we all heal, maybe some additional "brain training" might be a good idea but Ashton says there is no evidence of permanent damage, i am not about to start looking for it now... yet if there was evidence that benzo´s caused permanent damage that would mean that every benzo user on the Planet would be able to sue the drug companies... w/d can mimic all sorts of ailments, i would not stress about it.

 

Oscar

[[La...]]

Long term user here too and I can definately say my brain is healing, omg my memory is totally returning, I had lunch yesterday with an old friend and She couldnt believe how much better I was able to remember details of her family that she always used to repeat to me cause I could never even remember who was related to who, know I say "oh and shes married to (insert name) and they live ( insert city) , I no  longer worry about early onset dementia etc , the benzo knock our receptors down but not out, if I can heal after 15 yrs of 2 benzo daily so will you, try to remain positive, it truly helps

[Guest [vi...]]

what a coincidence zoner. i was reading the same thing and it got me worried too. i was just about to start a thread but there's already one here!

 

read the ashton supplement: http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

it's quite bleak frankly. ashton changes her stance from "benzos do not cause structural changes in the brain" to "inconclusive."your understanding is right btw. i got so panicky that i started searching for success stories from people who have been off benzos for many years and even thought that tapering from my benzo might not be such a wise idea after all. it's the benzo talking, i know.

[[...]]

I used Benzos in low doses for 20 years . I am Benzo free for the last 42 months now. I consider myself healed in many many ways but still I have food and exercise sensitivities at a very high level. Quite often I experience cog fog, depression, anxiety and fatigue at a relatively lower intensity and that too seem to be gradually decreasing with passage of time ever since I am free from Benzo. My mind seems to lack energy to think and process. I am 53 years old. I am operating much below normal level of physical and mental performance for my age. I see people ten years older than me with higher energy and physical capabilities. Still I feel that I have not stopped improving. If I take proper care of myself that includes taking healthy foods and abstaining from sex, physical and mental exertion then after a couple of weeks, I start feeling quite normal.

I can not decide if it is permanent or not but three and half years is a long long time to heal. May be another six months from now I will be able to give definite statement on the issue. But for now my count down does not seem to end.

[[os...]]

vineet, until you quit drinking and start tapering it would be nice to actually not go on about permanent damage, most here are tapering or done tapering and this is a support forum, we that are getting off the meds have a hard enough time as it is trying to remain positive.

 

If you wish to carry on drinking and drugging then by all means do so... but you would not take a drink into an AA meeting, so please have the same thoughts with here... now i am thinking "bleak future"... that is not why i come here, it´s just too negative, i know that if i carried on drinking and taking benzo´s then i would end up damaged... so i am doing all i can to prevent that.

 

Thank you

 

Oscar

 

 

[Guest [vi...]]

vineet, until you quit drinking and start tapering it would be nice to actually not go on about permanent damage, most here are tapering or done tapering and this is a support forum, we that are getting off the meds have a hard enough time as it is trying to remain positive.

 

If you wish to carry on drinking and drugging then by all means do so... but you would not take a drink into an AA meeting, so please have the same thoughts with here... now i am thinking "bleak future"... that is not why i come here, it´s just too negative, i know that if i carried on drinking and taking benzo´s then i would end up damaged... so i am doing all i can to prevent that.

 

Thank you

 

Oscar

 

don't be so prickly oscar. would you say all that to prof. ashton? while it is true that i still drink (whereas you are sober), it does not give you a higher moral ground to order people around. your statement, "If you wish to carry on drinking and drugging then by all means do so" is HIGHLY condescending. i have NOT joined this forum to pass time, troll, or post negative things but to learn and act upon my own recovery! you have a right to be concerned about the impact posts have on your currently "frazzled" nerves -- so do i! you are so full of it. i hope this is the last interaction i'm having with a pugnacious lil twit like you.

 

thank you.

 

vineet

[[os...]]

You are more likely to do yourself more damage by mixing alcohol with benzo´s, on Librium it clearly states avoid alcohol... in all the years i took Librium i never once ingested alcohol at the same time.

 

In that regard, apart from being dangerous, i fail to see how discontinuation of both drugs can possibly cause more damage... and i think you will find that most would agree on that including prof Ashton.

 

Recovery starts with action, i hope you make it, i really do.

 

Oscar

[Guest [vi...]]

You are more likely to do yourself more damage by mixing alcohol with benzo´s, on Librium it clearly states avoid alcohol... in all the years i took Librium i never once ingested alcohol at the same time.

 

you think i don't know this? it has been only a month that i have become benzo wise after my doc. made me c/t from my benzo and i was in shock for 10 days (while continuing to drink). my doc. reinstated my benzo (albeit a lower dose -- i was on 0.5 mg clonazepam before) and increased my antidepressant. i have already communicated to you  over pm that my doc. is waiting for me to overcome my antidepressant start up before he further increases my librium to help cope with the alcohol withdrawal. i am stable now and over the start up.

 

In that regard, apart from being dangerous, i fail to see how discontinuation of both drugs can possibly cause more damage... and i think you will find that most would agree on that including prof Ashton.

 

evidently alcohol withdrawals are shorter and reversible and their effects have been studied for a long time. i DID NOT say that quitting benzos will cause you more damage. i think you have not read the ashton supplement. she feels (in a speculative way) that the gaba receptors might not fully heal/regrow because they are discarded by the brain during benzo use and new ones that grow might not be as efficient. she also notes that a relapse of w/d sx may occur even after being several years symptom free. her supplement spooked me -- thus my post.

 

Recovery starts with action, i hope you make it, i really do.

 

i understand this and much appreciate your concern. i have still not "acted" and, frankly, until i act i have not acted. talk and promises here are bluster. i'm in a hole. and i can't go to a detox for they will stop my benzo (happened once). i really hope i make it. i really hope i act. fear of fear is my fear now (alcohol w/d). but i have no choice. i must act. looking forward to more interaction with you (contingent upon my "acting" else it is useless).

 

regards,

 

vineet

[[Ho...]]

vineet, until you quit drinking and start tapering it would be nice to actually not go on about permanent damage, most here are tapering or done tapering and this is a support forum, we that are getting off the meds have a hard enough time as it is trying to remain positive.

 

If you wish to carry on drinking and drugging then by all means do so... but you would not take a drink into an AA meeting, so please have the same thoughts with here... now i am thinking "bleak future"... that is not why i come here, it´s just too negative, i know that if i carried on drinking and taking benzo´s then i would end up damaged... so i am doing all i can to prevent that.

 

Thank you

 

Oscar

 

don't be so prickly oscar. would you say all that to prof. ashton? while it is true that i still drink (whereas you are sober), it does not give you a higher moral ground to order people around. your statement, "If you wish to carry on drinking and drugging then by all means do so" is HIGHLY condescending. i have NOT joined this forum to pass time, troll, or post negative things but to learn and act upon my own recovery! you have a right to be concerned about the impact posts have on your currently "frazzled" nerves -- so do i! you are so full of it. i hope this is the last interaction i'm having with a pugnacious lil twit like you.

 

thank you.

 

vineet

 

 

Benzo withdrawal can be frightening. Dr. Ashton's research is not the be all and end all in benzo withdrawal. We're all different. What has happened to one, may not happen to another.

 

I'd like to remind you both about keeping all comments on a respectful level and not to resort to name calling.

Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members.

 

[[zo...]]

..... the ashton supplement. she feels (in a speculative way) that the gaba receptors might not fully heal/regrow because they are discarded by the brain during benzo use and new ones that grow might not be as efficient. she also notes that a relapse of w/d sx may occur even after being several years symptom free. her supplement spooked me -- thus my post.

 

Vineet2, thank you for the link to the Ashton supplement. I looked through it and saw the part you're referring to. The supplement seems more positive than the main manual.

 

Thinking of alcohol .... do you know if it's true that there is a lot of overlap in the receptors affected by benzos and alcohol? I recall that alcoholics going through detox are sometimes given Librium/chlordiazepoxide to reduce delirium tremens. I seem to remember an explanation which said that the Librium was doing some of the same thing as the alcohol but it was a better alternative.

 

I think Ashton says somewhere that if someone is tapering off benzos then they should not compensate by increasing alcohol.  I read into that that alcohol would do some of the same things as benzos.

 

Is my understanding correct, as far as you know?

 

-zoner

[[Ko...]]

I did read somewhere that permanent or semi-permanent effects of long term usage are due to the GABA receptors having undergone changes in gene expression. It could be reversible though.

[[os...]]

Get to your Doctor and ask for help with detox off alcohol.

 

Get to AA.

 

Worry about the benzo later.

 

At least you are educating yourself on how to get off the drugs but deal with the alcohol first as you will need Librium or Valium for withdrawal purposes in any case.

 

One thing at a time.

 

Benzo withdrawal is totally dobale if it is done slowly, yet it would not make sense to start without eliminating the booze first.

 

When i first went to AA i was depressed but within a very short amount of time i felt hope and it just kept getting better and better... then the benzo had to go and yes, whilst it has not been a cakewalk, i have only suffered twice in my entire taper thus far by taking it slowly... but get off the drink first and you will feel much better for it... even in benzo w/d, i rarely, if ever think about a drink these days, that was because i got my butt to AA, it was the best thing i ever did for myself... now i am getting off the benzo and slowly life is getting good again... it takes effort and it takes time but make the decision, get the help and do it.

 

Oscar

[Guest [vi...]]

Dr. Ashton's research is not the be all and end all in benzo withdrawal.

 

thank you. i like this. i think her hypothesis is speculative and clearly there is not enough research that has gone into it. as she herself says towards the end, the numerous success stories speak volumes.

 

Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members.[/i]

 

noted.

 

oscar is right in a way -- i should read more and post less till i actually start my recovery.

[[zo...]]

Dr. Ashton's research is not the be all and end all in benzo withdrawal. We're all different. What has happened to one, may not happen to another.

 

Hello Admin, I haven't come across anything better than Ashton but I find her general tone about the possible damage to be extremely unsettling and I don't mean in a good way which spurs me into action.  I mean in a bad way which makes me put my face in my hands in despair and ask "What awful things have I done to myself?". She's written a good manual but her doom and gloom makes me lose my motivation!

 

Do you or anyone else have a link to an alternative good sources of information other than Ashton?

 

-zoner

[[Ho...]]

i should read more and post less till i actually start my recovery.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. If you can keep your posts within the rules of the forum, there is no reason you shouldn't take advantage of the knowledge, empathy and encouragement of the BB members.

[[os...]]

..... the ashton supplement. she feels (in a speculative way) that the gaba receptors might not fully heal/regrow because they are discarded by the brain during benzo use and new ones that grow might not be as efficient. she also notes that a relapse of w/d sx may occur even after being several years symptom free. her supplement spooked me -- thus my post.

 

Vineet2, thank you for the link to the Ashton supplement. I looked through it and saw the part you're referring to. The supplement seems more positive than the main manual.

 

Thinking of alcohol .... do you know if it's true that there is a lot of overlap in the receptors affected by benzos and alcohol? I recall that alcoholics going through detox are sometimes given Librium/chlordiazepoxide to reduce delirium tremens. I seem to remember an explanation which said that the Librium was doing some of the same thing as the alcohol but it was a better alternative.

 

I think Ashton says somewhere that if someone is tapering off benzos then they should not compensate by increasing alcohol.  I read into that that alcohol would do some of the same things as benzos.

 

Is my understanding correct, as far as you know?

 

-zoner

 

Librium along with other benzo´s affect the same receptors as far as i am aware... after being in AA for 3 months i realized i was not "sober" but merely "dry"... in other words, i was "chewing my booze"... i got honest and realized that i was not truly sober, yet for every alcoholic in AA we do not pass judgment on others medical histories, we look at our own recovery, for me, i had to quit my benzo in order to get sober... and i do not regret this one bit... life was good free of drink but now i have this path to walk, yet i know that life will not be just good off this also, it will be great... it may take time but i know that with my continued use of a benzo, i was just deluding myself as to my "sobriety"... it´s a tough one but in AA i learned that half measures avail us nothing... and i believe that... we do whatever it takes and life gets good in time... the best thing about benzo´s is that the "addiction" is mainly physical, once that is gone, abstinence should not prove hard, say for example, to alcohol itself, if Librium were that kind of drug i would not have managed my taper this far at home, despite my alcoholism, i have had no psychological cravings for Librium, despite the fact they work in a similar way... Valium may have been a different story.

 

Oscar

[[os...]]

i should read more and post less till i actually start my recovery.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. If you can keep your posts within the rules of the forum, there is no reason you shouldn't take advantage of the knowledge, empathy and encouragement of the BB members.

 

I agree and any upset caused i apologize, i just really did not appreciate bleak future statements being used... i know there is freedom of speech and all but i failed to see how such posts could be helpful for those already on this journey... i will look at Ashton´s statement later but i would think that any permanent damage would be very slight... i only know one thing... that staying on the medication is not the answer...

 

Oscar

[[Ho...]]

Dr. Ashton's research is not the be all and end all in benzo withdrawal. We're all different. What has happened to one, may not happen to another.

 

Hello Admin, I haven't come across anything better than Ashton but I find her general tone about the possible damage to be extremely unsettling and I don't mean in a good way which spurs me into action.  I mean in a bad way which makes me put my face in my hands in despair and ask "What awful things have I done to myself?". She's written a good manual but her doom and gloom makes me lose my motivation!

 

Do you or anyone else have a link to an alternative good sources of information other than Ashton?

 

-zoner

 

I'm afraid you would have to ask our members this. I'm sure they would know better than I. However, from my understanding, Dr. Ashton's researched involved a small group of people who she considered to be very severe cases (I don't have that reference in front of me at the moment but you can find the details of her research in her writings.) Just because something has happened to one person or 100 people, doesn't mean, by any stretch that you will also be one of those cases.  Knowing what the subjects of Dr. Ashton's research went through is only true for those individuals. Just because something might be true for a small group of people, does not reflect upon you and your situation.

 

Dr. Ashton's research and suggest guidelines are just that. They are a place to start.

 

If you would like to know about other research, I suggest you start a thread in Chewing The Fat. You're sure to get responses.

[Guest [vi...]]

i should read more and post less till i actually start my recovery.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. If you can keep your posts within the rules of the forum, there is no reason you shouldn't take advantage of the knowledge, empathy and encouragement of the BB members.

 

thanks hope. this made me cry internally. i'm in a bad hole as you can sense from my posts and participation here only helps me steel my resolve to take action. it helps reminding me every day that i am "ill" and must act or else it is so easy to get lost in the chores of life now that i am feeling a bit normal (after increasing my antidepressant).

[[os...]]

Dr. Ashton's research is not the be all and end all in benzo withdrawal. We're all different. What has happened to one, may not happen to another.

 

Hello Admin, I haven't come across anything better than Ashton but I find her general tone about the possible damage to be extremely unsettling and I don't mean in a good way which spurs me into action.  I mean in a bad way which makes me put my face in my hands in despair and ask "What awful things have I done to myself?". She's written a good manual but her doom and gloom makes me lose my motivation!

 

Do you or anyone else have a link to an alternative good sources of information other than Ashton?

 

-zoner

 

Zoner, in most cases the mind does not start to clear significantly whilst we are still tapering... w/d can mimic so many ailments, it really can, yet when you are free of the drug you will find you will recover, there may be some residual symptoms that take a long time to resolve but the vast majority should go within Ashton´s suggested time frames... terming anything as "inconclusive" is just Ashton´s way of covering her own name... it should not cause undue worry, she does state that complete healing cannot take place until total cessation of the drug... i am sure you will make a full recovery.

 

Oscar

[Guest [vi...]]

Librium along with other benzo´s affect the same receptors as far as i am aware... Valium may have been a different story.

 

Oscar

 

all benzos are cross tolerant with alcohol (viz. both affect gaba). the reason librium is used is because it is the oldest benzo and thus naturally was the first to be used in alcohol withdrawal. also it has a longer half life like valium (which is about as old -- i think the second benzo. to be invented). i think any benzo would work in alcohol withdrawal.

 

my doc. switched me from 0.5 mg clonazepam to 20 mg chlordiazepoxide 'cos he reckoned chlordiazepoxide was the benzo he was going to prescribe me anyway after i quit alcohol. oscar, you are fortunate that you never mixed benzo with alcohol but unfortunately a lot of people do (including some on this forum who do or did) and prof. ashton has sections devoted to people abusing both.

[Guest [vi...]]

 

Thinking of alcohol .... do you know if it's true that there is a lot of overlap in the receptors affected by benzos and alcohol? I recall that alcoholics going through detox are sometimes given Librium/chlordiazepoxide to reduce delirium tremens. I seem to remember an explanation which said that the Librium was doing some of the same thing as the alcohol but it was a better alternative.

 

I think Ashton says somewhere that if someone is tapering off benzos then they should not compensate by increasing alcohol.  I read into that that alcohol would do some of the same things as benzos.

 

Is my understanding correct, as far as you know?

 

-zoner

 

your understanding is fully correct. the right thing to do, for me, in this stage, is to first quit alcohol while increasing my librium dose and then start tapering from the higher dose of librium (maybe 10 mg more? i don't know. doc. will tell).

[[os...]]

Librium along with other benzo´s affect the same receptors as far as i am aware... Valium may have been a different story.

 

Oscar

 

all benzos are cross tolerant with alcohol (viz. both affect gaba). the reason librium is used is because it is the oldest benzo and thus naturally was the first to be used in alcohol withdrawal. also it has a longer half life like valium (which is about as old -- i think the second benzo. to be invented). i think any benzo would work in alcohol withdrawal.

 

my doc. switched me from 0.5 mg clonazepam to 20 mg chlordiazepoxide 'cos he reckoned chlordiazepoxide was the benzo he was going to prescribe me anyway after i quit alcohol. oscar, you are fortunate that you never mixed benzo with alcohol but unfortunately a lot of people do (including some on this forum who do or did) and prof. ashton has sections devoted to people abusing both.

 

Librium is the mildest mg for mg and long half life, less addiction potential i think is why it is used more often than Valium for alcohol withdrawals but i think both are used in acute cases... or just Librium in rather high doses for a very short period, i never dried out in hospital or a detox unit.

 

I never took Librium as well as booze because it never appealed to me but i have heard many mix benzo´s and booze... i was reckless enough as a binge drinker without the pills to boot, i would have been scared to touch a pill whilst drinking.

 

Vin, i think quite high doses of Librium can be used, do not be alarmed by that, they are not very potent as i am sure you know... this will only be for a matter of days and will not be like a CT as there will be a taper to a therapeutic level...

 

Oscar

[Guest [vi...]]

Get to your Doctor and ask for help with detox off alcohol.

 

Get to AA.

 

Worry about the benzo later.

 

yes.