Intellectual Question / Debate

[[pa...]]

Okay -so not ONLY do I want to get to the bottom of this question, but I thought it might strike a little debate that might actually be a way to exercise thinking processes (somethign I know I need) 

 

So here is my question:

 

1.  Are d/p and d/r in our case of benzo recovery related to anxiety - or are they simply a product of recovery regardless of anxiety?

 

Here is my experience and the reason for my question. Early after my jump, I had INTENSE d/p and INTENSE d/r.  At 2-3 months, the d/p went away, although the d/r was still intense.  Now - at almost 6 months, the d/r is mild. This entire time, healing has been going on. But I have had MANY days in this past month where I do not feel anxious - like - barely at all - and yet I still have d/r.  One might argue that the reason I DON"T feel anxious is BECAUSE d/r is protecting me.  And yet, the one day that the d/r DID lift, I did not have any anxiety in its wake. (Of course, it was back that afternoon.)

 

2,  It begs the question :  If d/r and d/p are related to anxiety, is it possible for us to potentially do anything about them by somehow "treating" our anxiety ? Or are these symptoms simply physiological with GABA-healing the only solution?

 

Any evidence or personal anecdotes as reasoning are highly encouraged!

 

What got me thinking about ALL of this are the so-called "d/r" cures for prgrams that are sold on the Internet.  It got me wondering if we, as benzo-recoverers, are any more or less likely to benefit from such a program, or whether in our case the d/r is simply a brain thing that we cannot change with anything but time. 

 

Interesting topic...

Love to read some answers and I'm sure we'll learn a lot from each other. For example, Tuk Tuk posted a d/r link today that I had never seen but found astounding!

 

Love to all,

:)Parker

[[ma...]]

Hi Parker,

I have had both DR & DP & severe anxiety/terror.

I think they are ALL benzo wd related & can occur separately or together-

just like the physical sympyoms of muscle/nerve pain/gastro etc can occurr

w/ any of the above or separately.

Everytime I ask my pharmacology Dr about sypmtoms, including DR & DP

- he  tells me thay are all benzo wd related brain problems due to GABA downregulation.

Unfortunately the main common "treatment" for anxiety is benzos.

The irony is that it has been documented that benzos CAUSE anxiety.

Benzo WD sure does.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[[pa...]]

Wow, Margaret! I think you are so fortunate to have ANYONE to talk to that is a professional. I've often said I would feel so much better if  I just had one professional person to talk with who understood this and could console me. What else does she/he say about the time expected to recover?

[[AN...]]

I had d/r earlier this afternoon, and had it bad!  (So I asked some questions and got some info on it.)  That was enough to convince me that I wasn't going crazy.  But--and here's a weird one--it is gone now with no trace, and I feel restless but not especially anxious.  In fact, this seems to be one of my "windows"--I feel pretty good.  Maybe the anxiety chemistry in my brain changed enough so that I don't need it now.  This would support the idea that it is a protective device.

[[ma...]]

Yes, Parker,

I am lucky to have found a semi benzo wise Dr -esp as I live in a sm town.

Unfortunately I did not find him till I was at end of 9mo taper. Sure wished I had- just for moral support.

Had been scrambling w/ Ashton manual . The former TRAP forum administrators

gave me lots of help & were life savers.

Unfortunately my Dr says there is no standard "time frame" for someone

having trouble w/ benzo wd, & that everyone's nervous system is different.

{Pretty much what I have learned from Ashton & all  "post benzo withdrawal" research

& TRAP & BB forums]

 

He's only seen one case as bad as mine before. He also is not sure any med can mitigate benzo wd,

but is willing to try different things that fit GABA dysfunction problems when I am desperate.

He has offered me things like beta-blockers, campral, baclofen & clonidine- none of which helped.

He was intuitive enough to have me try these at the smallest doses possible as he

thinks my nervous system is in chaos & overly sensitive to everything. He also

trusted me to determine in a few days whether any of these helped & not take them if they didn't.

 

When I had total breakdown last few weeks - he said I could try 300mg Gabapentin.

It was miraculous & brought be back from brink -& back to my "right mind" within an hr.

Unfortunately it didn't work that well for me next few days - so jury is out on it.

Also after researching Gabapentin - am not sure it is worth the risk as it also has to be

tapered if taken for several months, & studies are not clear as to whether it helps in benzo wd. -Aston

 

Anyway, my Dr is no expert on benzos - but has some knowledge & is willing to listen to me

& read Aston info etc. The best thing actually, is that he knows benzos can cause

a horrific array of symptoms & has no doubt my problems are ALL related to

benzo wd - that I'm not crazy etc. That alone is extremely helpful to both me & my husband.

 

Sure wish a lot more DR were educated - esp not to prescribe benzos in 1st place!

Wouldn't that be great!

 

margaretisabel

 

 

[[re...]]

I think d/r and d/p are both anxiety disorders. Both are very common among people who suffer from anxiety, even if they're not in benzo withdrawal. But anxiety disorders don't necessarily feel like anxiety attacks. OCD is an anxiety disorder, and if you're suffering from, say, obsessive thoughts, you may not feel anxious. Anxiety can manifest itself in different forms. During benzo withdrawal, there are a lot of physical symptoms. Some of these are caused directly by the withdrawal. But I think others are manifestations of anxiety - meaning that they might occur in someone with anxiety who had never taken a benzo. Both anxiety and depression are very sneaky, and they show up in ways we often don't recognize.

 

Of course, the anxiety that causes all these problems may itself be caused by benzo withdrawal. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

[[AN...]]

Margaretisabel,

 

I have had exactly the same experience with gabapentin, but only if I take about 100 mg once every two or three days, when things get intolerable.  I tried it for a week (100 mg 2x/day with my doc's recommendation) but it only worked for a few days, then seemed to peter out.  Now I take it once in awhile for the really bad times.  And yes, you do have to taper it if you are on it for awhile.  I was on it for years and got off it last July.  I did have some w/d's but nothing like Seroquel and lorazepam.  So maybe it is a useful "emergency" drug.

[[WT...]]

I do recall getting DR long before benzos.  I was pondering a theory of gravity once for a few weeks, and I got DR from it.  It wasn't the scary hazy/foggy kind, it was more that trippy kind where everything felt off or just plain weird.  I don't recall having anxiety, as pondering brought me joy.  This DR lasted a month or so, and just went away on it's own. 

[[ja...]]

My theory is that dp and dr are related to anxiety. Benzo withdrawal unnaturally raises your anxiety level thru the roof. The result is extreme symptoms of dp and dr.

 

Being and anxiety sufferer, i suffered about 8 months of DP and never touched a benzo during that time, all the while sufferilng anxiety and depression.

 

 

[[mi...]]

This is a great question Parker. In the beginning I didn't know what to call my DR. In fact i didn't know it was DR at all. Coupled with the DR I had severe anxiety. I think I had 2 different types of anxiety. I had benzo withdrawal "crawl out of my skin" anxiety and a anxiety brought on by the DR. As my 'benzo' anxiety got better my DR and the anxiety brought on by it seemed to stay pretty much the same. I could say it got a little better, but I truly believe the only thing that got better was my ability to cope with it. I didn't let it scare me as much. Now as I sit here I have very little anxiety, yet my DR is ever present. Everyone says the key to letting DR heal is to accept it and to not let it bother you, but i've found for me that i've gotten so wrapped up in trying to accept it that it's hanging on. It has become this whole mantra of, "I must accept my DR and not let it scare me," and this is where I am stuck. It really is a vicious cycle. For me it seems the other way around. That is, I believe, my DR is causing my anxiety. And as I stated earlier it's not the kind of anxiety I had early on it's different. It's a mild anxiety caused by things looking off and not quite right. Really when you think about it who could have DR and not feel a little anxious? Everything looks weird and wrong! I do believe the DR is from benzo withdrawal. Anyway I hope I am making sense. I really, really DISLIKE this feeling.

[[ma...]]

Parker!

Good to get your info & experience on the Gabapentin.

Will try & just use it just for emergencies.

Also glad to know the taper wasn't too bad

Thanks a bunch,

 

margaretisabel

[[...]]

Parker, about two months ago as my DR and brain fog started leaving me I noticed a shift in symptoms towards adrenaline-based symptoms such as anxiety, anger, agitation. I had fear with the DR and some mild anxiety...until the DR went away and major anxiety set in. I wonder if this is a new phase in healing which involves different neurotransmitters or regions of the brain.

 

Anyone else had a shift in symptoms like this? From DR and brain fog to anger plus anxiety?

[[an...]]

I'm still tapering, but I often feel like brain fog and anxiety/agitation sort of take turns. One will be present/more intense for a while and then the other will take over. And I have had the feeling that brain fog is "protecting" me from the more raw, agitated anxiety. I'm not sure if I have derealization. That's an interesting idea these two different types of anxiety might be the result of different parts of the brain healing or being active.

[[...]]

Honestly, I'd rather have the DR + brain fog rather than the agitation + anger!

[[br...]]

Parker,

 

My theory on this is pretty much that WD is a volume knob for these symptoms if you already had them, and may create them if you DIDN'T have them.

 

I had anxiety and panic. It was bad enough for me to seek medication, which I'm generally opposed to. Of course, my panic was triggered by meds... naturally.

 

In any case, I experienced lows during WD I never saw pre-jumping. So, I do think the chemical process has to play out, and I believe the random, ramped up

symptoms are attributable to WD. Yes, I also think you can have anxiety... AND be in WD, and at times it can be hard to separate the two. But, at least in my case...

I truly feel I can tell when it's organic, and when it's a product of a wave.  Of course, good luck convincing anyone around you of that. You just have to let them

think what they may... and wait it out.  I've seen improvement over this last year, albeit choppy. If this was purely organic, I don't think I would have seen the improvement I have.

In fact, I think I'll get to 100% and rid myself of almost all anxiety once the WD process has played out and I'm fighting a fair fight, so to speak.

 

 

As to treating symptoms in WD, I absolutely believe that learning coping techniques for anxiety is crucial. You need them more than you ever will. It may not "solve" the issue...

but it sure can make it sit better, emotionally. God help me if I hadn't read Claire Weekes' books 100 times before hitting WD. (Among many others.) I absolutely think

treating anxiety is crucial during WD... but I don't mean throwing other drugs at it. Some people have had a little success here and there, but most only get worse.

 

I remember an idiot GP I had wanted to slap me on Prozac when I told her I was off of benzos and having problems. She told me that "the anxiety was just me and it would never go

away."  Literally, those were her words. Luckily, even in my suffering... I knew what an absolute imbecile she was. I later joked with my psychiatrist about her pushing the SSRI on me

during early WD and he said that had I taken it... I would have seen "anxiety that I never knew existed."  (He's a bit anti-SSRI, admittedly.)

 

So, I think therapy... reading... coping... meditation is all crucial during WD. I do think we have the ability to mitigate some episodes. We can't stop them all, but I think we'd all agree

that we can make a wave WORSE with our behavior and thought patterns, right?  So, it stands to reason that the same methodology could provide some benefit.

 

DR/DP to some degree is pretty common with anxiety. I knew it before WD, so it doesn't bother me as much as some symptoms. It's truly annoying and can be disheartening, but it's

one of the symptoms that I easily know isn't dangerous. It's easily explainable from a biological standpoint. (The brain tunes out all outside distractions in survival-mode, so this

lends to a narrow-minded, confused feeling brain.) It's the same reason a good meal doesn't taste as good when anxiety is high. Nature designed us that way. We're supposed to be

fleeing for our lives, not enjoying a meal.  Conversely, that's why going through calm, relaxed motions and trying to stay positive and even faking it is an antidote to anxiety.

It tells the "old brain" that we don't need the ramped defenses, and they eventually go away.  Of course in WD, this process takes longer... and is more unpredictable.

 

 

I'll also just remind people that I created a poll for anxiety pre-post benzos that they moved out of WD Support so no one can see it, unfortunately. If you look in my sig... there's a link.

Hopefully more people will chime in so we can get enough data for our friends, family and doctors to see.

 

 

[[el...]]

  2 of my Shrinks told me you can never take a benzo without adding a antidepressent.With that being said they must have known benzos cause depression.The D/R is a symptom of Depression.If you were to go to the doctor and tell him about your D/R he would tell you that you are suffering from depression.I never had any depression before my benzo use.I had anxiety due to my way of thinking..Not being able to let things go..Playing them over and over in my mind..Racing thoughts at night,I could not shut my mind down to sleep.I did not know this would lead to anxitey.If doctors know benzos cause depression,and give you only a benzo,you will be a long time customer.Next comes the antidepressent,next comes the ambiem,until you are poly druged.Sorry to go off topic..Have to vent..

[[Fl...]]

One might argue that the reason I DON"T feel anxious is BECAUSE d/r is protecting me.  And yet, the one day that the d/r DID lift, I did not have any anxiety in its wake. (Of course, it was back that afternoon.)

 

My guess is that the dp/dr does act as a protective mechanism for most people but that doesn't mean that you will always have anxiety when it lets up.

[[ja...]]

One might argue that the reason I DON"T feel anxious is BECAUSE d/r is protecting me.  And yet, the one day that the d/r DID lift, I did not have any anxiety in its wake. (Of course, it was back that afternoon.)

 

My guess is that the dp/dr does act as a protective mechanism for most people but that doesn't mean that you will always have anxiety when it lets up.

Ditto...FloridaGuy!!!

 

I agree . I feel the D/P D/R are our own minds Defence Mechanism and Protection from such a High level of Anxiety rising in our Minds and Body.I never had Anxiety in my life until directly after my C/T..It was through the roof. I believe hadn't I had the D/R I may have been in a state much worse off then I was..

 

~Jenny

[[pa...]]

WOW! So many interesting thoughts and ideas.  INteresting that Gabapentin has been a tool for a few of you. 

 

Minka- How you feel is EXACTLY how I feel. In early recovery (months 1-3) what I had was true, benzo-created anxiety - replete with physical symptoms of racing heart, high BP, sweating feet, - it was autonomic.  It was just my body freaking out.  I had severe symptoms of everything then.  Now, my heartrate and BP have returned to normal. I don't feel particularly anxious EXCEPT for the situational anxiety I feel about this d/r.  Like Florida mentioned, in my case, when the d/r let up (albeit, it was only one day), I felt amazing. I felt like me. I was so excited that I went shopping, to the playground, etc.  I feel that for me, when the d/r finally does let up, I am going to be in a good mood simply because that is my most disturbing symptom.  And it's not "severe" anymore, but things dont' look right or sound right.  It feels like I'm in the back of my head and need to somehow push through a wave of water to swim to the front of my head. I feel like you feel when you are in a swimming pool and about to reach the surface to break through the water and see the world.  I still know that the world on the "other side" is "real" - but it just feels like there is this water between "me" and "the world".  I never had this before benzos.  I dont' know what to expect as far as healing.  Jenny/Florida - is this what is was like for you?

 

Bryan, WOW. Excellent rationale. What are the names of Weekes' books? I will go on Amazon and order them - whatever ones you liked.  I think that for a long while now, I felt I might be close to healed at this point. And so, I hadn't really develeoped any coping mechanisms.  In my life prior to benzos, I might have had mild GAD - never diagnosed, but if I had to say so, I probably was more mildly anxious than the average person. Still - I never had a panic attack or any type of d/r/p.  I never really had a problem sleeping.  I just exercised pretty regularly and that seemed to be calming and kept me even keel.  So - I dont' really have any coping mechanisms like you talk about.  I mean, I am not "feeling" anxiety right now - just d/r.  But if i had to measure it, I'm sure I "do" have anxiety - ABOUT the d/r. And like Minka - I can't "not" think about it, because it faces me in everything I do and look at and listen to. It's present, and therefore, I am anxious about it - not physically in terms of heart rate or blood pressure -but internally- I"m anxious about d/r.  What do you DO about that?  Does Weekes address this?

 

Mmir - I am so sorry there is that rage. I also have intrusives, but they dont' bother me as much. They're odd - but nowhere near as odd as the d/r feels "to me".  I did have rage in early w/d -and it was fierce - and so hard.  I remember. As a woman, it's not somethign I've ever really felt - none of that "testosterone" effect. I remember being at Disney and needing to go off near the bushes and scream in my arm- the rage was so intense.  That was about 2 months off.  This process is tough.  I know that when the d/r lets up for me, whatever is left, I plan to just exercise to see if I can't improve it.  30 minutes outside walking briskly in the sunshine does so much for me. Is there anything you have found to cope with it,Mmir?  For me, anything that expends physical energy gets my endorphins going and releases tension in my CNS.  Anything you do?

Mmir- I dont' know, but if I had to guess, I would say that "YES" you've healed. If d/r truly IS a protective mechanism, then the fact that you've lost it but that it has given way to anxiety, might mean that you've crossed the threshold to where - yes - it sucks - but your brain must think you can handle it and not need d/r anymore to cover it.  I kinda wish that would happen to me. I envy you in a way.  I think you've made positive progress to have crossed that threshold. Of course, I don't feel what you feel, so I cannot know how challenged you feel.  I respect what you say about it. I'm sure it is as hard as you say it is.  But if it helps any, I do think that is progress- and that more will follow.

 

Jenny - When did this d/r leave for you?  I truly think that when it goes for me, I will be SO genuinely happy inside, that my own feelings of relief of it will overshadow any potential benzo-related mental issues.  Physically, I may have some issues, but mentally, I feel that my relief when the d/r lifts will carry me through healing. I just wish I knew when that might happen. Like Minka, I think having d/r is prolonging my anxiety, which is prolonging my d/r.....  If only they could put me in a coma and wake me up when it was all over...

 

Gotta get those books that Bryan is talking about!

 

:)Parker

 

 

[[Bi...]]

  2 of my Shrinks told me you can never take a benzo without adding a antidepressent.With that being said they must have known benzos cause depression.The D/R is a symptom of Depression.If you were to go to the doctor and tell him about your D/R he would tell you that you are suffering from depression.I never had any depression before my benzo use.I had anxiety due to my way of thinking..Not being able to let things go..Playing them over and over in my mind..Racing thoughts at night,I could not shut my mind down to sleep.I did not know this would lead to anxitey.If doctors know benzos cause depression,and give you only a benzo,you will be a long time customer.Next comes the antidepressent,next comes the ambiem,until you are poly druged.Sorry to go off topic..Have to vent..

 

Actually, my doctor told me it was a defense mechanism, at least he knew that much. He said that many people have it. I have had it 8 months straight now. It has let up, but still there.