Getting off Xanax! New to Benzo Buddies...need some cross over and taper advice!

[[Ba...]]

Hi. Just starting to taper off of Xanax. Have been on the max dose of 6mg per day (usually taken at night due to chronic insomnia being the reason for being prescribed in the first place). Duration of use is at least 15 years. Long term use has caused a multitude of symptoms especially in the past year. Went from varying 6 mg (plus or minus 1 mg per night) to 5 mg per night steady from 2/26 to 3/13. Added a little bit of valium to help ease the edge and get some sleep but didn't even know about 'cross over' then. Found out about Heather Ashton and Benzo Buddies on 3/13. The night of 3/13 dropped from 5 mg a night to 4.5 mg a night. This drop has been VERY VERY tough bringing on extreme insomnia, anxiety, confusion and depression. I have MS and suffer from chronic pain which after reading about benzo withdrawal realize much of it may be due to the long term xanax.

 

The dr. gave me a bottle of 10 mg valium to use for tapering but is not involved in the process otherwise. He was very mis informed about switching and thought 5 mg of xanax could be substituted with 40 mg of valium a day. This would have been a disaster according to what I have read.

 

Today my bp (which is normally about 100/60) was 198/121. Finally, after a scheduled acupuncture visit, went down to 158 over 94 but that's still too high. Feel horrible. Took 10 mg of valium at noon and another 5 mg around 4 pm. I plan to take my 4.5 mg of as scheduled tonight and have been taking about 7 mg of valium at night to try and get SOME sleep. Also use some herbal remedies from a very good acupuncturist/naturopath. Although she is trying to help as much as possible she is admittedly out of her arena when it comes to benzos. Her acupuncture did get my bp out of stroke zone today though ... Appreciate any support, advice and good thoughts I can get from a voice of experience. Thanks!

[[Bi...]]

BamBam,

 

Welcoming you to Benzo Buddies.

You will find plenty of support here.

Others will be around to weigh in shortly.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

 

To add a signature: Signature 

 

Billy.

 

[[Mi...]]

Hi BamBam

 

You are in the right place for understanding as all of us here are in various stages of tapering, jumping off and recovering from benzo use.  You are on a pretty high dose of xanax and have been for quite some time.  Many here are successfully tapering off xanax directly but many have also crossed over to valium as you are trying to do. Xanax can be problematic because of its short half life.  If you have read the Ashton manual you know that 5 mgm xanax=100 mgm valium.  Have you considered printing out the Ashton manual and taking it to your doctor?  Or looking for a more benzo wise doctor to help you through this?  However you decide to go, going s-l-o-w-l-y is the key.

 

As for the BP, I had hypertension too during the tolerance and tapering withdrawals.  It is not uncommon, but definitely needs a doctor's advice.  The rest of your symptoms are pretty typical too.

 

You are not alone, we understand and we care.  Keep reading and posting.  You can successfully get off benzos and your life will be so much better benzo free.  I am sending you positive energy for hope and healing and strength for the journey.

 

MiniMinnie

[[Be...]]

Hi Bambam

 

Thats great that you are doing some reading and are getting to grips with benzos.. The more you understand about this process the less scary it feels.. It's a rough and long journey but it can be done, albeit very slowly. 

 

I am unclear if you are taking that 7mg of Valium at night as an extra?  Are you increasing your dose above the initial 5mg Xanax dose? This is really important to check.. You need to be on a stable dose for about 2/3 weeks before you should consider tapering.. Unstable dosing will lead to extra symptoms..

 

Mostly people will not be crossed over to valium until they have directly tapered to about the equivalent of 40mg of Valium ( about 2mg of Xanax) that is because Valium is very sedating at higher levels...

 

To make a safe crossover you will need to taper your Xanax by about 5%-10% every 10-12 days until you get somewhere close to 2mg Xanax.  You can vary that percentage and rate according to your symptoms.  The idea being that you keep them as tolerable as possible.

 

I agree with MiniMinnie that it might help to print the Ashton Manual out and bring it to your doc.. You will need him on board to prescribe and to keep an eye on your bp..

 

I hope that you settle in well and do ask if you need help..

 

Hugs,

Betsy xxxx

[[Ch...]]

BP spikes happen because the central nervous system has been suppressed by the Xanax.  Still has to be monitored and/or treated for your safety.  Lots of members here will have good advice for you in your tapering but MiniMinnie hit the most important one~~~you MUST go slowly to minimize risks to your health and to make the journey, which can be a rather long one, easier on you.  Tapering too fast, and .5 is too fast, brings on the bad effects. 

 

Have you considered reinstating to the 5 mg you were on before you make the cut 3/13?  You can do that now without worrying about the kindling effect and it should help alleviate the extreme side effects you're having.  If you wait until two weeks have passed, it's my understanding that it won't do any good to reinstate after that and your side effects from that big cut can linger for a long time.

 

I can't really address the crossover issue because I've tapered from Xanax without a crossover drug, but I know it's been problematic for some people and becomes another drug to taper off later on.  Just food for thought...someone else will be along to chime in soon!

 

Happy you found this site...best thing that happened to me during this ordeal.

 

Challis

[[bl...]]

Hi. Just starting to taper off of Xanax. Have been on the max dose of 6mg per day (usually taken at night due to chronic insomnia being the reason for being prescribed in the first place). Duration of use is at least 15 years. Long term use has caused a multitude of symptoms especially in the past year. Went from varying 6 mg (plus or minus 1 mg per night) to 5 mg per night steady from 2/26 to 3/13. Added a little bit of valium to help ease the edge and get some sleep but didn't even know about 'cross over' then. Found out about Heather Ashton and Benzo Buddies on 3/13. The night of 3/13 dropped from 5 mg a night to 4.5 mg a night. This drop has been VERY VERY tough bringing on extreme insomnia, anxiety, confusion and depression. I have MS and suffer from chronic pain which after reading about benzo withdrawal realize much of it may be due to the long term xanax.

 

The dr. gave me a bottle of 10 mg valium to use for tapering but is not involved in the process otherwise. He was very mis informed about switching and thought 5 mg of xanax could be substituted with 40 mg of valium a day. This would have been a disaster according to what I have read.

 

Today my bp (which is normally about 100/60) was 198/121. Finally, after a scheduled acupuncture visit, went down to 158 over 94 but that's still too high. Feel horrible. Took 10 mg of valium at noon and another 5 mg around 4 pm. I plan to take my 4.5 mg of as scheduled tonight and have been taking about 7 mg of valium at night to try and get SOME sleep. Also use some herbal remedies from a very good acupuncturist/naturopath. Although she is trying to help as much as possible she is admittedly out of her arena when it comes to benzos. Her acupuncture did get my bp out of stroke zone today though ... Appreciate any support, advice and good thoughts I can get from a voice of experience. Thanks!

 

Hi BamBam,

 

I'm coming down off of 16 years of being on Xanax from 3-6 mg per day although in divided doses. It is a very, very silly medication to take, IMHO, for an all-at-once daily insomnia medication because honestly the half-life is too short and so you wind up taking high doses like you were taking. At that dose, you're going to then expect daytime withdrawals.

 

You're going to need to be sure to be more informed than your doctor. 5 mg Xanax is equal to 100 mg of Valium. A cut like that could have really, really messed with you. Have you had your doctor read the Ashton Manual by any chance?

 

Looks like your plan is to start tapering over yourself? 4.5 mg Xanax plus the 7 mg Valium (which is about .35 mg of Xanax). That's a total of 4.85 mg Xanax, cut from 5 mg. You should do okay on that. It's 97% of your original dose, if my math is right. Try to keep your cuts small and frequent. No more than 5% per week.

 

Keep tapering down and ultimately, see if you can't get your doctor to understand that 1 mg Xanax is 20 mg of Valium. It's pretty widely published on. If I were you, I would cross-over because Valium has a long half life and should help take the daytime w/d edge off a lot. Then you can taper off of that. You could pretty easily follow the Ashton taper, I think. Just be prepared to have some tough symptoms with those higher doses of meds and longer use. Still, I'm having a relatively easy time. So we're all different.

 

Luck to you!

[[bl...]]

Tapering too fast, and .5 is too fast, brings on the bad effects. 

 

 

 

I absolutely agree but the 7 mg additional Valium = .35 mg Xanax, right? So the whole amount is 4.85 mg. From 5 mg, I get that at a 97% of the poster's dosage. If my math is wrong, which is always possible -- I'm not a math person at all -- please someone let me know! Otherwise, I'd think the taper over sounded similar to what Prof. Ashton recommends?

 

The poster's history sounds really similar to my own!

[[Ba...]]

Thank you all for your responses. I am in so much need of support...I want off the benzos so bad but I now understand it has to be a VERY VERY slow taper. Still having too many symptoms of nervousness, weird headaches, bad bad insomnia that always comes and wakes me at 2 AM in a panic...lots of back muscle pain, imbalance and difficulty walking. Oh and depression...which seems to come and go. It helps a lot to know and remember that these symptoms are largely due to long term high dose usage of benzos plus the ongoing withdrawal I have probably been having over the years)

 

I am going to take the advice to print the entire Ashton Manual and try to find a benzo wise dr. who is familiar with Dr. Ashton...in the area (Southern California) to help with this.

 

For now, I am staying at the 4.5 mg. of xanax (down from an average of 6+ about a month ago) and making up the difference with 20 mg valium (back up to 5.5 mg equiv xanax) which seems to have eased my acute withdrawal symptoms... and stay there until I stabilize and find a dr. who can help with the cross over and taper. The only reason I don't want to go back up to 5 mg on the xanax is that Dr. Ashton was pretty clear about trying to avoid going back up once you've made a cut. It's just confusing to be taking both...although the valium does seem to have a steadier and longer delivery. But I don't think any doctor can switch me over to 100 mg of valium a day because it exceeds maximum dosage. 

 

SO, for today I am grateful for all of you and your support. The dr. that prescribed all this clearly isn't the right choice to help get off of it. He is now a medical cannibas dr besides. I already feel so much better knowing I'm moving in the right direction and have the support of people who have walked this road and made it to the end.

 

. I will heed to advice to GO SLOW...GO SLOW...GO SLOW

 

Any more advice on handling symptoms and hearing from those who have made a cross over coming off long term high dose xanax are appreciated. Looking forward to the day where I am the one offering the support.

[[bl...]]

You sound so much like me when I started here. There are only a few people coming off of long-term, high-dose Xanax. But I'm one of them. It is all about sloooow. I couldn't find a doctor who would do the Valium x-over because for me, it did not work. So I'm slowly tapering down using a water titration method. I'm planning to taper over about six months to avoid the kinds of horrible withdrawals I hear from others.

 

I'm having a pretty decent time and haven't yet lost my job. Har har. It's slow. I think in your case updosing might be okay and would make perfect sense. I admit that I'm not working with my doctor on this because I've already tried six times and failed; I don't need that in my record again. For me, that's working really well because there's some pressure off to "perform" to anyone's expectations.

 

I have been on up to 6 mgs sometimes (not all at once, although I know I've probably taken nearly that much on a few plane flights or during severe emotional stress, or with lots of doses close together). I was under a ton of pressure last Fall and started taking 5 mg. per day a few times a week. That messed me up and yes, resulted in tolerance withdrawal where I just hit a wall and my normal meds weren't denting my panic disorder, which was flaring up all over the place. I thought it would be a good time to stop since I was already having withdrawals. Also, this is silly maybe, but I want to go travel around the world in a few years. I'm really a huge travel buff. But when I travel, I worry constantly about access to medication! That I'll lose it, or whatever. When I started my taper off, I would get a fever and delerium 12 hours after a missed dose. The first cut felt like I'd taken a pretty hardcore drug. But then it started improving a ton! I've kept it slow, slow, slow and steady.

 

But, I've come down now over 1/8th of my dose in three weeks. By the end of the month, I'm aiming for about 1/6th. If I'm off this stuff in six months, hallelujah! That sounds fine to me.

 

Don't be afraid of what you feel with some of the first cuts. Try to baby yourself. You might feel awful. It will be a bit different for you because you're tapering over to Valium first, hopefully. If you can't, you can honestly taper off directly although you'll have interdose withdrawal. Hey! Just like you are now!

 

I'm a relative newbie here but no newbie to trying to come off my meds. This is the furthest I've ever come. I think I'm going to make it this time too... I understand how normal some of my symptoms are, and accept the days when I'm a little weird too. I like how easy the water titration is.

 

Good luck and let us know how you're doing or if you have any questions. There's a lot of info here. It can be, I think, sometimes a little discouraging to hear that someone's on a really low dose for a short period of time and is wrestling with symptoms. There are people here who may not be able to fathom taking 6 mg. of Xanax per day. It's so routine for panic patients (not so much for insomniacs though) that I've personally known plenty of folks who are on these kinds of doses.

 

 

And about updosing. In a case like yours, it makes sense to me and I think is something Prof. Ashton supports in some cases? I can't remember. But if you can stay low, stay low. If you're too symptomatic, go up. You might try reinstating at a slightly lower level and see if that works for you. Over a few nights maybe, if you can endure it. I might try by like .25 mg at a time or so, personally. But if not, whatever. Do what works for you. The goal is to come off, not to prove anything to yourself!

[[Ch...]]

Still having too many symptoms of nervousness, weird headaches, bad bad insomnia that always comes and wakes me at 2 AM in a panic...lots of back muscle pain, imbalance and difficulty walking. Oh and depression...which seems to come and go. It helps a lot to know and remember that these symptoms are largely due to long term high dose usage of benzos plus the ongoing withdrawal I have probably been having over the years)

 

Bam Bam,

I had every symptom you describe when I cut too much off my dose in February.  Except for the muscle pain, imbalance and difficulty walking, I had them all and more~~blood pressure spikes, pounding in my ears, rapid heartbeat, muscle weakness especially in my hands and arms...all typical of this w/d syndrome.  It's a lot easier to take when you know what it is and that it's physical even though it sometimes feels like it's a head trip and you wonder if you're going crazy!

Challis

[[Ba...]]

Thanks again my friends.

 

Well, part of my imbalance and difficulty walking could be due to the MS but also it could be the high dose benzo use and/or withdrawal according to Dr. Ashton's literature.  After re-reading the switch/taper schedule on the Ashton Manual, I DID go back and print the schedule and re-adjust the meds. Looks like I went from starting dose (6 mg), skipped stage 1 altogether (but did OK on stage 2 (except instead of taking the 20 mg valium a night took only 7 to 10) Stayed there for 3 weeks or so. Jumping into stage 3 I am at appropriate dosage of xanax and will up the valium to match her withdrawal schedule, that should alleviate a lot of the symptoms since I'm going back up to the max level of overall benzo and will stay here a couple weeks and stabilize. From here I will follow her withdrawal schedule 1 to the letter. Only question I have is that I usually take almost all of my benzos at night because of my insomnia, she recommends splitting it into morning mid day and evening. I don't seem to need any in the morning, I thought I would tweak that and take some at mid day (I do start feeling inter dose w/d by then I've just been fighting it) and still save my xanax for night time. Anyone tried this and how did it work out?

 

Buddie, I'm curious by what you mean that you couldn't switch to valium. It's working for me so far and now that we are adding the 30 mg of valium to the mix I have a feeling it's going to make things much more tolerable for me. One thing I've heard is that some people get pretty depressed on the valium when they first make the switch.

 

Strange but true, the dr that prescribed it to me did so for insomnia...it worked initially then had to keep increasing the dose...then off and on not so much so had to take other meds and alcohol over the years to get some sleep. I've always had bad insomnia since I can remember.

 

The weird thing is that, while I have always been somewhat of a worrier and sometimes nervous, I worked as a Union Ironworker for over 25 years (you definitely can't do that with a panic disorder). Had to retire a couple years ago because of the MS and since then (the blow of forced retirement and a series of personal losses) have been taking more xanax and have actually DEVELOPED wicked anxiety, panic, depression and a whole host of anxiety related symptoms starting a year ago following an arthoscopic knee surgery (which went fine) followed by a traumatic fall 10 days later that I caught myself in the doorjamb and held on to try and break my fall and tore both shoulders and tendons all the way down the arms. The pain was so intractable that the dr. ended up putting me on Fentanyl. That is a whole separate story. The whole year from 4/2011 was lost in a blur of psychosis. Thankfully with my wife's help, we were able to taper me off the Fentanyl and at the same time (10/1/11) I stopped a daily (30 year) heavy alcohol use and scaled back in one drop to 2 small airplane bottles that I sip at night. In the meantime, coming off all that (I didn't sleep hardly at all from April - September) a dr. we went to see added seroquel to the mix to help me get some sleep and stabilize my mood (which seemed to go out of whack after the surgery last year...from the fentanyl, the trauma, the general anesthetic...who knows)  The seroquel DID work for sleep and I am a lot more stable more often than I was back in October, but still have unrelenting anxiety disorder. Discontinued the seroquel after 16 weeks due to HORRIBLE side effect. Tapered down pretty quickly and discontinued from a high dose of 200 mg a night down to 100 mg down to 50 mg down to 25 mg all within the period of about a month.

 

I don't have a history of mental problems per se...this debilitating anxiety, panic, depression etc all came in the past year. Again, we thought the symptoms would subside with the cessation of fentanyl and major cutback of alcohol but the major anxiety persists. After reading Dr. Ashtons website and manual, convinced that getting off benzos will be a major life improvement and I can go back to being ME again. I can't wait for the day. I am feeling a lot better and more positive already. BP is fine. If I had ever known the dangers of this drug class and what it does to your brain, I really would have looked for other options.

 

I will keep you all posted. Good luck and God Bless to all my fellow benzo buddies.

[[Ch...]]

If I had ever known the dangers of this drug class and what it does to your brain, I really would have looked for other options.

 

Absolutely...and we all wish our doctors would have as well!! 

 

[[Mi...]]

Wow BamBam you have come through so much already.  Sounds like you are a fighter, so attack this benzo taper and recovery with some of that same fighting spirit.  As for the balance problems, it definitely can be benzo related.  Of all the symptoms I had coming off, the ataxia and balance problems were the worse and they continue to bother me even though other symptoms are better.  I often feel like I am on the deck of a ship that is pitching and rolling.  Hang in there, you will beat this!  Keep us updated with your progress.

 

MiniMinnie