Does a 12 - 18 month taper equal a cure?

[[os...]]

Hi all,

 

I was reading the thread about feeling worse 5-6 months off... and i was wondering this...

 

It seems that most suffer here due to CT´s or very rapid tapers (days or weeks) and even semi rapid tapers of 6 months...

 

If Ashton basically states that healing takes a year to 18 months, would this explain the suffering here by quite a few?

 

I get that to be OFF the drug is a good thing, yet healing still has to take place and there seems no way to speed this process up.

 

What i am getting at is if one tapered over a period of a year to 18 months, even beyond, would it be logic to think that most healing is done whilst lowering the dose ever so gradually?

 

I just find it strange that so many taper in a short time and expect healing to happen, to my mind, if it takes a year to 18 months regardless, isn´t tapering far slower a more humane way of healing instead of healing with nothing to ease symptoms?

 

OR

 

Is it really possible to taper over a very long period and then still have a long stretch of healing ahead?

 

I don´t understand how Ashton and the collective BB data base is not able to identify the best course to take.

 

It just seems standard that those that CT or taper too fast still have a year to 18 months to heal... and that healing DOES happen no matter how we taper but surely there is a difference in both CT, fast taper and very slow taper yet there seems to be no study of this...

 

I know this may not prove helpful but i just wanted to know others thoughts on this...

 

Do you wish you had tapered far slower? Was there a reason why you chose a faster route? Would you change it if you could do it again?

 

Some survey´s on here would be a really good idea... to get a better picture of the best way to get off these awful drugs, Lord knows there are enough of us here.

 

If BB´s had a set questionnaire for all members i bet it would be far easier to see a better picture of what works and what doesn´t.

 

Oscar

[[su...]]

I love your post.

 

I cold-turkeyed off a very lose Ativan (used it 2 years) at the advise of a psychiatrist I went to when I realized I was in interdose withdrawal.  That was 31 days ago.  I just posted  about how absolutely miserable I am.  If I had it to do over, I would have gone straightaway to a different doctor until I found one that would have switched me to something with a longer half life and put me on a slow, slow taper.  This is a living hell.

[[os...]]

Hi Sunnyside,

 

I just see a very strong pattern here on these boards, if i see suffering, lo and behold in the signatures i invariably always spot the reason why within seconds.

 

I have been on for 20 years and trust me, i have done my research and am still doing so... i am 8.5 months into my taper from erquiv of 12mgs valium and i am now down to just under 4mgs equiv of valium, yet i am going even slower now and will be going even slower by 3mgs, 2mgs, 1mg and then 0.5mg... i don´t care how long it takes if i am not suffering.

 

I also believe that many jump from too high a dose, even after a long taper, that just seems illogical to me.

 

Surely here is the answer to others that are new, i just wish others that are doing really long tapers and have finished would chime in more on this... the cut and suffer method seems so hard on many... there is no way i could do it, not a chance.

 

I hate that others suffer so much, there was a time when i was desperate to be off and yet these days i am grateful i am gradually reducing, i cannot say i am free obviously, yet i feel i am healing ever so slowly and not suffering like so many on here... even 8 month tapers seem too fast... make up the deficit and there are potentially still months of healing ahead...

 

In my mind, a taper of 18 months may seem crazy to some, yet i am sure it would ease and erase most symptoms post taper, surely they are much more tolerable.

 

I get that many get problems pre-taper, that needs to be taken into account but in my opinion, Ashton seems to fail almost everyone, that method is too hard on the CNS and invariably causes symptoms... it seems that if a detox is a bad idea, which it clearly is, then a rapid taper a la Ashton is merely a staggered version of that with results that are less than satisfactory, a year to feel better, or longer, with no aid is a long time.

 

I´m sorry but i question that and many more should also.

 

Switching to Valium seems the one sensible option yet i think tapering guidelines are grossly unrepresentative of what actually goes on with many in withdrawal... why hasn´t Ashton revised this? Has she even mentioned very slow tapers?

 

What do we have to lose if healing takes that long any way? I´d say not a lot.

 

Oscar

 

PS: Sunnyside, you are healing everyday, please know that as with everyone here, that much is a given, hold onto that, i have no idea how the later stages of my slow taper will go... i wish i knew but i cannot comment on being free for quite some time... hang in there.

[[ba...]]

You raise some very good point what about all the people who have healed and just left the forum, Dr. Ashton states healing can not begin until one is off benzo, bliss johns also talks about this, a very complex  question but excellent  bando

[[os...]]

20 years on Librium, equivalent to 12mgs valium a day, i am now under 4mgs equivalent of valium per day.

 

I have been tapering 8.5 months and not had one night of no sleep.

 

No sleep aids used, ever... not even melatonin.

 

I had symptoms such as d/p, d/r, fog, fatigue, occasional headache but i have always felt mostly symptom free.

 

Symptoms i had have mostly diminished and/or gone as i have tapered gradually.

 

I feel i am healing.

 

Ashton may say that we do not really heal until off but if that were the case, why do slow taperers feel better as the taper progresses?

 

Surely logic states that slow is the best way when many suffer for months post taper? Has she commented on WHY healing takes so long? Is it not in fact her method that makes many ill?

 

I see too many suffering and it makes me angry... Ashton does not offer any RELIEF in healing, she even states that 6 months is the maximum taper duration if my memory serves me correctly? How does this benefit long term users?

 

Ashton is flawed, the way out of this is to match a taper duration to the minimum healing duration, it´s virtually common sense... to my mind anyway.

 

As a Benzo user that sees others suffering i only think it right to question WHY the suffering, there is an alternative and that is simply to go far slower... like i say, if healing takes weeks and sometimes months, we don´t really stand to lose much by tapering over a longer period do we?

 

Ashton does not address the problems post taper enough, the emphasis is on getting off and good grief she even condones jumping at doses that are harmful, i don´t see her logic at all... at least for those more sensitive, has she really nothing better to offer?

 

It´s not good enough, people are not only being messed up by the medical profession but even Ashton guides us to a level of suffering that is still unacceptable, especially given the time frames that are sadly too long in many cases.

 

I´m sorry if this upsets anyone, i´m just angry and questioning, one day i would like to see an end to as much suffering... i believe the answer is in much longer tapers... period... just getting off these drugs is not enough, it´s HOW we do it is all important and in my opinion, Ashton fails many.

 

Oscar

 

 

[[Ch...]]

I did a 14 month taper in all.  If I could go back, I would have done a 14 year taper so that I could have kept my job and any semblance of a life.  If it was inevitable to have this 4 month period of suffering, then I would have done a much faster taper and just gotten it over with and let the healing begin.  I think it's crucial to maintain quality of life while tapering.  I acknowledge that I was on a sizable dose for a long period of time and that I had two failed tapers before but this is ridiculous.  I truly believe there might be some unnecessary suffering as a result of faster tapers in accordance with predetermined schedules.

[[os...]]

You raise some very good point what about all the people who have healed and just left the forum, Dr. Ashton states healing can not begin until one is off benzo, bliss johns also talks about this, a very complex  question but excellent  bando

 

I´m healing, i should know after 20 years use, i feel much better 8.5 months into my taper than i did at the start, most symptoms are absent apart from a blip i had a few weeks ago... that was due to the fact i never held my dose in all those months... i have not ever lost a night of sleep so far... given the duration of my use i looked into this and i am constantly grateful i am going this slowly.

 

Oscar

[[os...]]

I did a 14 month taper in all.  If I could go back, I would have done a 14 year taper so that I could have kept my job and any semblance of a life.  If it was inevitable to have this 4 month period of suffering, then I would have done a much faster taper and just gotten it over with and let the healing begin.  I think it's crucial to maintain quality of life while tapering.  I acknowledge that I was on a sizable dose for a long period of time and that I had two failed tapers before but this is ridiculous.  I truly believe there might be some unnecessary suffering as a result of faster tapers in accordance with predetermined schedules.

 

I agree, schedules don´t work, putting a timer on a nervous system is nonsense, we all differ and that much is evident by the wildly differing recovery rates and symptoms... it´s very much an individual thing that cannot be applied successfully, it simply isn´t a one size fits all, surely even Ashton can see the flaw in that thinking... where is the flexibility?

 

Oscar

[[pa...]]

I think this is an excellent topic and questions you raise.  Here are my thoughts.

 

a) I don't think ANY ONE PERSON can know what is best  - rapid taper or slow. And here's why:  It IS true that some people have NO problems coming off benzos.  So  - that is one "given" that fits no mold at all.  Even Ashton might not have an answer for why this is true.  But it is.  But for the rest of us, we may fall anywhere on that spectrum of folks with "no problems" coming off benzos to "full on problems" - and there is no real way to know who is who. Even if we could isolate that factor within ourselves, another factor is "slow taper" versus "rapid taper".  If you take a person who may not have a hard time coming off benzos and do a slow versus rapid taper, that person may do fine either way - versus a person with a tough time coming off benzos may have maximum suffering either way.  Then, add to THAT the idea that slow tapers aren't all the same - some involve crossovers to other benzos like valium, while others are dry-cutting.  And then, add to THAT, the factor of "what is a slow taper".  It is not a controlled, exact science.  So - what one person may deem "slow" may be actually pretty rapid.  Then, there's the TYPE of benzo (Klonopin and Ativan seem to be harder than others to come off of).  And then the factor of how long and how high a dose you're coming down from - and then just personal genetics!

 

Well - those are just some of the factors that make this question tough to answer. Until a very well-controlled, well-sampled study seems to identify and isolate these types of factors to mete out the differences, I think it will be hard to really know what is successful under what circumstances.

 

I will mention that i DID try a "slow" Ashton taper the first time I tried quitting.  I crossed-over to valium with no issues at all - and then tapered from there.  I tapered per her schedule of .5 a week and then .5 every two weeks at the end.  It was AWFUL for me after about 2mg and below.  As you can see from my signature, I crashed hard.  But then I did a rapid taper 8 months later and had the same outcome really - only this time I was offered Remeron to help sleep and eat  and this is the only reason I made it.  Technically, I feel I was not served well by the long valium taper. I would rather have fast-tapered like I did the second time, only because the long time spent on valium tapering - to me- just added another benzo into the mix for longer than maybe I needed to be on it.  That is always a question in my mind. In many ways, I wish I had just done the rapid taper to begin with. I still was on valium for my rapid taper, but only for 2 weeks.  Whereas, the first time I tapered valium - slowly - I did it over 5 months - from about 7mg from the crossover.  Maybe that wasn't slow enough, to be honest -but that is part of the problem. Nonetheless, the time I spent on valium maybe actually didnt' help!

 

This is a great topic and would be an excellent topic for researchers to attempt to examine.

However, first - we've got to actually get to the point where professionals are in agreement that benzo withdrawal does actually exist as a phenomenon! 

 

I've thought a lot about writing a book or doing a documentary when this is all said and done.  I honestly feel that we are the guinea pigs of this movement- like the "children of thalidimide" were in the 50's or 60's.  Nobody knew that thalidimide caused birth defects until all these children were born with them - and then it became obvious.  I believe we are those test subjects -and that eventually folks are going to realize all of this -with ongoing awareness. 

 

I really plan to work on this when I am healed and am then credible.  I have a background in neuroscience - and I never thought I'd be going through a brain injury. It's really wild.

 

Great topic!

:)Parker

[[Bi...]]

I tapered 24 months, so no, because I'm still in withdrawals. Yes, I may have healed some, but nah.. If I could go back.. I would have just stuck through the c/t in 2007 I pulled.

[[Ch...]]

I did a 14 month taper in all.  If I could go back, I would have done a 14 year taper so that I could have kept my job and any semblance of a life.  If it was inevitable to have this 4 month period of suffering, then I would have done a much faster taper and just gotten it over with and let the healing begin.  I think it's crucial to maintain quality of life while tapering.  I acknowledge that I was on a sizable dose for a long period of time and that I had two failed tapers before but this is ridiculous.  I truly believe there might be some unnecessary suffering as a result of faster tapers in accordance with predetermined schedules.

 

I agree, schedules don´t work, putting a timer on a nervous system is nonsense, we all differ and that much is evident by the wildly differing recovery rates and symptoms... it´s very much an individual thing that cannot be applied successfully, it simply isn´t a one size fits all, surely even Ashton can see the flaw in that thinking... where is the flexibility?

 

Oscar

 

Try getting more Valium from a doctor these days.  And to think there are people who enjoy taking it.

[[gi...]]

I did Ashtons slow taper.  It took me 14 months.  I am pretty much at the same healing rate that others that CT off at the same time.  In my opinion I believe true healing only begins after you are off the benzo and as such that once you are off the damage that has been done to our brains begins to repair.  Honestly,  if I had it to do over again I would have tapered in half the time because I would probably be the the same place I am now.  Putting  a time frame on healing is fruitless because I have found healing is very indivilualized .  It happens though. 

[[re...]]

I tapered too fast in the beginning per my docs instructions. I stabilized then slowed down. But no matter how slow I went, anytime I got under .5 I crashed and burned. I felt the only way off for me was to jump as I was SO sick in my taper. (Bed ridden etc. )

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have never swallowed the little pills to begin with. And I would have done a much slower taper if I could have. I was in tolerance though so not sure if going slower would have helped.

 

You are right that those of us who got off fast are suffering. I am in the hurt locker big time, but pray I am healing. I know I have gotten better in some things.  It is just painfully slow going.