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Ready to make the next cut, but how?


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It's only been a couple of weeks since discovering this forum and realizing I can't just abruptly stop .125mg/day of Klonopin. That had been my plan since I started my taper back in July. My doctor advised me to take .125mg every other day until I stabilized and then go off completely, but I'm not comfortable doing that after what happened before when I tried going off of .5mg/day. I'll do just about anything to avoid that hell again. I'm currently feeling stable and am ready to make the next cut, but am unsure how to manage a smaller dose than what I'm at. Someone suggested a titration plan to me, but I don't have any of the supplies and am not even sure what to order. I don't want to put off another cut while I figure all of this out and wait for it all to arrive. So I guess I have a few questions.

 

How can I make a cut smaller than 1/4 piece of of .5mg pill and keep them all exact?

I've recently been cutting by about 50% each time (see signature). Can I make that large of a cut again or should I start to slow it down at this point? If so, by how much?

Can I start a titration plan after making this next cut?

 

Thanks so much for any input you could give me. I greatly appreciate it.

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It's difficult to make exact cuts by pill splitting at such a low dose.  I wouldn't worry about taking a bit of time to get your titration supplies.  This isn't a race and at the end of the day I don't think it matters much if you make your next cut today or next week.

 

However, Summer has found a method of dry cutting at low doses.  I hope that she will see your post and explain how she has been able to direct taper off klonopin.

 

Hang in there.

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Thank you both very much. I just finished reading Summer's post. I'm thinking this might be a better option than titration for me. Although everything is confusing lately, titration schedules make my head spin! If I change my mind and want to start titration after this next cut, would it be too late at that point?

 

Thanks so much, again.

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It would not be too late.  You can always change your method of tapering when you feel you need to.  Listen to your body and do what is right for you.  There are lots of people here that can help you with a titration plan if you choose to go that route.
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Thank you, mmgc. I just noticed your signature and it has reaffirmed my decision to not take my doctor's advice to just go off the .125mg. I've been going back and forth for the last few weeks and feel much better about the decision now. Thanks again!
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Hello Ally,

 

I see you are interested in dry-cutting from .125mg of Klonopin. I am including 2 examples of how to do a dose reduction from .125mg along with information about how to get off the last tablet. Congratulations on getting to .125mg.

 

 

Getting off the last tablet:

 

Ashton recommends going to 0.5mg of Valium that would be the equivalent of 0.025 mg of Klonopin. So, 0.03125mg or maybe 0.015625mg should be low enough to step off and become benzo free. Here is the reference below:

 

The Ashton Manual

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

 

Chapter II

 

Getting off the last tablet: Stopping the last few milligrams is often viewed as particularly difficult. This is mainly due to fear of how you will cope without any drug at all. In fact, the final parting is surprisingly easy. People are usually delighted by the new sense of freedom gained. In any case the 1mg or 0.5mg diazepam per day which you are taking at the end of your schedule is having little effect apart from keeping the dependence going. Do not be tempted to spin out the withdrawal to a ridiculously slow rate towards the end (such as 0.25mg each month). Take the plunge when you reach 0.5mg daily; full recovery cannot begin until you have got off your tablets completely. Some people after completing withdrawal like to carry around a few tablets with them for security "just in case", but find that they rarely if ever use them.

 

 

 

 

I have been dry-cutting. I have learned some important things about this process for me:

 

 

You get the % by taking the dose reduction and dividing it by the dose you are currently at. For example; a 0.03125mg dose reduction from 0.5mg is a 6.25% dose reduction.  0.03125 divided by 0.5 = 6.25% reduction.

 

 

 

1) I have found that I need to hold for no shorter than 2 weeks. . That is because Klonopin has a half-life of 30 to 40 hours and the generic clonazepam has a half-life of 18 to 50 hours. It takes five half-lives to get a dose reduction out of our system.

2) I listen to my body and hold until it feels like it has adjusted to the new lower dose. I usually get a few lower symptom days before I do another dose reduction.

3) My average holds have been 2 to 4 weeks

4) In order to keep the symptoms at a tolerable level, I keep my cuts around 10% or lower.

5) I have been able to keep my cuts below 10% by going to .03125mg when I hit .5mg of Klonopin.

 

 

 

In case you are interested in how I am able to dry cut the lower doses:

 

Cutting .25mg:

 

Here is how I am able to get the .25mg pieces. I break the .5mg tablet in half.  The brand Klonopin is scored and breaks in half easily.

 

 

Cutting .125mg

 

Take the .25mg and cut that in half. That is a .125mg piece. . I use an angle razor like a box cutter. And cut on hard surface like glass or a mirror.

 

Cutting .0625mg

I have the 0.5mg Klonopin.

 

I break the 0.5mg tablet in half then, I cut 1/4th off of that. I use an angle razor like a box cutter. I have found that the razor is thinner and sharper than the pill splitters I have worked with. Yet, I have read that some have no problem using pill splitters.

 

I cut the 1/4 off of the tablet on a glass surface. I have found the glass surface to be hard enough to get a clean cut. I press down firm and fairly fast. The 1/4 breaks away (from the .25mg). Now I have 0.0625mg.

 

NOTE: If you are unable to get a chip that is .0625 mg then you could crush it into powder. That would work as well. You would take a .25 mg piece and separate it into 4 piles.

 

Cutting .03125mg (Powder)

The way I get the .03125mg is I crush a .25mg piece and separate the powder into 8 piles. I happen to have a window scraper so that is what I use or you could use a razor. I crush the .25mg on a dinner plate with the top part of a pill crusher. Then use the window scraper or razor to separate the pile into 8. Each pile is .03125mg.

 

Note: (What I do is crush the portion of the tablet. Then I put it in one pile. I do my best with the razor to separate the pile into two. Then I take the two piles and separate them into two. That makes four piles. Then I take those and separate them into two more piles. That makes eight.)

 

Cutting .0156mg (Powder)

The way I would get a .0156mg cut is by crushing .125mg piece (to get the .125mg, cut the .25mg in half). Then crush the .125mg on a dinner plate, into powder with the top of a pill crusher. I happen to have a window scraper so that is what I use or you could use a razor. Then separate the piles into 8. Each pile is .0156mg.

 

NOTE: With the powder, here is how I take it. I lick my finger, press it on the powder, then I put the powder in my mouth. Then I drink some water after.

 

 

 

Here is an example of reducing the dose from .125mg by .0078mg:

0.0625mg (Chip or Powder)                 

0.03125mg (Powder)

0.015625 (Powder)

0.0078mg (1/2 of the 0.015625 powder)

--------------------------

0.1172mg Total

That is a 6.2% dose reduction

 

Here is an example of reducing the dose from .125mg by .015625mg:

0.0625mg (Chip or Powder)

0.03125mg (Powder)

0.015625mg (Powder)

---------------------------------

0.109375mg Total

That is a 12.2% dose reduction

 

I hope this is helpful,

 

Summer

 

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Thank you, Summer. This is really wonderful to have going forward. I'm printing this off for my husband to have, also. Always nice to have a back up brain in these moments!

 

I'm actually looking forward to making the cut tonight since I've felt stuck lately. And I just wanted to say congratulations to all of you on this thread. You all started out on such high doses and have come so far.

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Hello Ally,

 

You're welcome. I have my husband help me too with setting up my dose reductions. It was so kind of you to congratulate all of us for the progress we have made. I see you started at 4mg of Klonopin. Way to go on your progress. Hey, I wanted to share something that helps me with organizing and putting together my dose reductions every 2 weeks.

 

PILL ORGANIZERS:

 

I would get some pill organizers. You can get them at the drug store. I would get the ones that have 4 compartments. They come in one week's supply, one sleeve per day. I would get two weeks supply of these. I put together two weeks supply of my dose reductions together at one time. I take one sleeve out in the morning and put it on my table and take my daily doses from there. That way it is all organized and planned ahead.

 

It may be worth even getting more than that so that you can use one of the sleeves to collect all the different sizes of Klonopin. For instance; one container for the .25 mg, then one for the .125, then one for the .0625. Over time they will become useful and help reduce the time it takes to prepare for the next dose reduction.

 

We would all like to hear how you are doing. Please check back as often as you like, we are here for you. You are not alone.

 

Love to you,

Summer

 

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Summer, thanks so much for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. And a pill organizer is a great idea! I take my entire dose before bed and hate fussing it with it then. Thanks again and I'll check back and let you all know how it goes. Prepared for the worst, hoping for the best...
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Just wanted to add my experience to the list here.

I am 7 months off, after unsuccessful jump- getting to 3 months and reinstating. I dry cut til .125 myself- klonopin. I had doubts about handling titration, but did not want to cross over to yet another med. I titrated and it was easy, even with just my own fuzzy benzo brain. I just cut a bunch of .125 pieces. Each night I smashed one in between two spoons. I dumped it into a measuring cup of 1 cup water, stirred like heck.

All you do it remove a spoonful each night and drink the rest.

If for some reason you want to hold, you just don't take out another spoonful that day.

It was simple, and involved no real equipment.

.125 is not a place to jump from.

susan

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Susan, thank you...how simple is that?! So you removed an additional spoonful each night (night 1 = 1 spoonful…night 2 = 2 spoonfuls…etc.)? I definitely don't want to cross over to any other med either.

 

I used a pill cutter instead of my hands last night and managed to split the .125 chip evenly in half. I feel fine today, but I usually don't start noticing any symptoms until at least 3 days out. So, looks like I'll continue to dry cut until my next reduction. I'm so thankful to know how to continue at that point. I'm unsure, though, if I should continue the every other night thing I've been doing with each cut. I would usually alternate the .0625 and .125 for a week and then start the .0625 nightly. I started doing this after my .5mg debacle. It seems to ease me into the lower dose. Does anyone have opinions on this? I haven't noticed anyone doing this and I imagine there's a good reason.

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I don't know of anyone taking a lower dose for a week and then going back to the previous higher dose for a week.  Everyone is different and I don't think anyone is going to tell you not to do it this way.  However, you are updosing a week after you make a cut this way and the idea is to reduce the amount of benzo in you system slowly and steadily and give your body time to get used to the lower dose before making another cut.

A more common way to try to minimize symptoms is to split your daily amount into more than one dose per day.  Many people dose 2, 3 or 4 times per day to avoid interdose withdrawal.  With valium many only dose once a day due to the long half-life but the other benzos, including klonopin, have a much shorter half-life and can therefore easily cause issues with interdose withdrawal.

 

 

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I've been water titrating from a good sized dose of Xanax using that exact water taper. I like it. It's simple!

 

I keep a chart though so I can know what my dose is. I figured out that my teaspoons are very close to 5 ml. Which is great! Because it's easy to do the math with. I use 100 ml water. It's probably why I've been having a relatively smooth taper so far. I'm almost a month in and have cut out 1/8th of my dose without any serious side effects (other than some very, very rough days here and there and a lot of tooth grinding). I really like this method. It's extremely simple. I have a plastic water bottle which I marked at the 100 ml line, and that I carry with me. I carry an extra teaspoon with my cosmetics in case I need to prepare a dose while out. It takes no thought and really no preparation at all.  :thumbsup:

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mmgc - No, I definitely don't want to updose! I took .0625 last night and would take .125 tonight, then .0625 the next night, etc. I'd do that for a week and then decrease to .0625 every night. That's still slowly decreasing right or is that considered updosing every other day?? I used to take 2mg in the morning and 2 at night. I'm glad to be taking it only at night now and hope to finish out with just that nightly dose. I'm confusing myself now…I hope I'm making sense with the every other night thing. In my mind I'm slowly edging my way into the lower dose. I never looked at it as updosing the days I took the .125. I seem to have less symptoms that way, but then again it could be a psychological thing.

 

Blueorchidlady - Yes, this method seems extremely simple. I'll either go this route or Summer's when the time comes. Why doesn't everyone do this instead of messing with all the beakers, syringes, etc.? I'm thinking of starting a progress log or blog here to keep track of my symptoms, but the dose chart is definitely a great idea at this point! I've been marking the day of cuts on my phone's calendar…not the best option. Congratulations on your progress and thank you!

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mmgc - No, I definitely don't want to updose! I took .0625 last night and would take .125 tonight, then .0625 the next night, etc. I'd do that for a week and then decrease to .0625 every night. That's still slowly decreasing right or is that considered updosing every other day?? I used to take 2mg in the morning and 2 at night. I'm glad to be taking it only at night now and hope to finish out with just that nightly dose. I'm confusing myself now…I hope I'm making sense with the every other night thing. In my mind I'm slowly edging my way into the lower dose. I never looked at it as updosing the days I took the .125. I seem to have less symptoms that way, but then again it could be a psychological thing.

 

I would consider that updosing every other night.  The reason you seem to have less symptoms this way is most likely because you're treating your withdrawal symptoms by taking a higher dose of klonopin every other night.

I don't want to tell you what to do as you need to taper the way you feel is right for you.  However, I would suggest titration which would allow smaller cuts and splitting your dose up into 2 or 3 doses throughout the day rather than updosing every other day for a week.

 

Hopefully some other members will chime in on this one.

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Well, you are making total sense. It never dawned on me that I was in fact updosing and just prolonging the inevitable. I was thinking I was making it easier on myself. My doctor had recommended that when I took myself off the .5, but he's not the most informed on this. Ok, now I'm considering just starting titration from here like you suggested. For some reason I'm expecting a harder time with that. Part of me wishes I still had no clue about the w/d ahead of each cut…ignorance can be bliss sometimes. Thank you so much for such important input! I'm very grateful to have found this support.
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I know it can be difficult but try not to think about the what ifs as you may have a fairly smooth taper. 

 

You can do this and you have lots of people here to support you along the way.

 

 

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Why doesn't everyone do this instead of messing with all the beakers, syringes, etc.? I'm thinking of starting a progress log or blog here to keep track of my symptoms, but the dose chart is definitely a great idea at this point! I've been marking the day of cuts on my phone's calendar…not the best option. Congratulations on your progress and thank you!

 

I think some see it as imprecise, but I already feel like the effects of Xanax are wildly imprecise for me every time I take it; one dose will feel one way when another dose on another day will feel totally different -- sometimes my regular dose will relax me while another dose has no effect. One will last for two hours and another for six. I would guess that's pretty usual? I don't know other than in my own experience.

 

I don't since worry about imprecision since I use the same set of spoons. I guess someone could use a different spoon and wind up with a different amount? Also, a little imprecision doesn't bother me right now since I'm at a higher dose and my goal is "to keep reducing." I think it would be more important to use the syringes at low doses if still very symptomatic. Also, some people taper at 1% per day. I don't do that because I want time to adjust. What's working for me is to taper by a half teaspoon of 100 ml (which is 2.5 ml of water) every 4-5 days. I wait for my body to feel okay, I make sure I'm alright, and then I cut again. This will be about six months when I'm done. It's slow, but I've been on Xanax for around sixteen years, so I really do want to make sure I give myself time to adjust. I also need to be able to keep working through this.

 

I have some symptoms. Sometimes the first few days really are brutal too after a cut. But then I feel better pretty quickly and stabilize decently.

 

Maybe it will get worse when I get into the lower doses but for now I'll remain optimistic!  :smitten:

 

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mmgc - Thank you so much for pointing out that I was updosing. I decided to just make the cut and stay there and I'm very glad I did. I'm remaining optimistic!

 

blueorchidlady - Once I stabilize at .0625/day, I plan to start titrating using your method. Everyone's suggestions were great options, but this is simplest to me and I need simplicity right now! I don't think I'll do 1% per day either, as I don't like to put a schedule on myself…I just listen to my body. Thank you, again.

 

So far I'm feeling pretty good! Stomach's been a little upset and my joints are pretty painful in the mornings (especially my achillies tendon area), but nothing I can't handle. And of course my Torticollis is acting up, which is to be expected and always fun... It's still very early, but hopefully it's an indicator of how well this cut will go. I do have one more question that I'm hoping someone can answer. I'd like to start a blog where people could post replies, so I've figured out that would be a buddy blog and not a progress log. I'm just unsure where to start it. I would think under Buddy Blogs, but have seen them under Buddy Space, also? I've read the article describing the differences, but am still unsure.

 

Again, very grateful for all of your help!

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I think starting a Buddie Blog is a great idea, Ally.

 

Go to Buddie Blogs in The Nexus and start a new topic to get started with your blog.  I think you'll enjoy having a blog where all your buddies can visit and support you on this journey.

 

mmgc

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