need to find a way to move forward

[[...]]

I know that I cannot turn back time; however, I do sometimes wonder if reinstating back in November 2011 was the right decision.

 

I was not prepared for the intense withdrawal that hit me a couple of weeks after jumping.  Not saying that one can really ever be prepared for theses horrific symptoms.  But I should have done more research.

 

Before I started tapering from 5 mg of clonazepam per day in 2010 I did quite a bit of research on how to taper and my taper went fairly smoothly for the most part until I reached the lower doses.  I ignored the symptoms and should have clued in that it was too soon to jump.  Was dealing with an iron deficiency at the time and blamed the extreme fatigue, head pressure, insomnia, etc. on that rather than realizing that these symptoms were withdrawal.

 

Since I've started tapering again after reinstating, I have had mostly bad days in terms of symptoms.  I have made 4 cuts of 0.0625 mg so far.  I've been at the same dose sine mid January and haven't been able to stabilize to the point of making another cut.

 

Sometimes I wonder if I should keep making cuts at regular intervals regardless of how I feel, switch to valium, give titration a try, or just quit CT.

 

All of these options are cause for concern to me.  Making cuts while this unstable worries me because I don't know how I could possibly cope if the symptoms get worse than they are on really bad days.  Switching to valium scares me because I'm afraid of trying any other medication, benzo or otherwise.  Titration worries me because I don't know how accurate that really is.  Using water would allow me to see the particles but water is a poor suspension medium. Using milk would not allow me to see the particles.  CT scares me because of the risk of experiencing a worsening of symptoms that I may not be able to cope with.

 

At this point I have no idea if taking the clonazepam is doing anything to stabilize me or if things would be the same if I stopped taking it entirely.

 

Just wonder if I'm doing more harm than good by continuing to take clonazepam.  I feel no different before or after taking a dose.  It is not providing any relief.

 

I have not been able to figure out a pattern of how long after a cut the symptoms are most severe.  The symptoms increase and decrease without any pattern of time in relation to a dosage reduction.

 

I know there is no right or wrong answer here and no way to know the result of any option.  Just writing what I'm thinking about. 

 

Would love some feedback.

 

Thanks.

[[Be...]]

Hi, mmgc.

 

I know you have posted about your dilemma in several threads around the board and I have responded on some of them.  However, here you give your specific reasons for fearing all your options so I thought I would speak to that.  First, to me .75mg clono is too high a dose to c/t from so I would take that off the table.  Since you get no relief from taking your pills, you probably have reached tolerance.  I was already in tolerance when I started tapering so had withdrawal symptoms whether I cut or not.  Know thing my GABA system can't completely heal - and this nightmare end - until after I was entirely off, I decided to continue tapering.  With tolerance withdrawal, the only way to possibly get some relief would be to take a really large dose, and that, to me, is the road to hell.  I dry cut all the way because it was easier but it was very inexact.  Titration, regardless of how many particles cling to the sides of the container, is way more exact than any method that includes cutting you your pills.  So, even if you decided to try the substitution method, you would eventually be back to either dry cutting or titrating to reduce your dose.  There's just no way around it except to jump from a full pill dose. 

 

Maybe you have to look at it as choosing the method that has the fewest problems for you even though none are problem-free.  Clearly, just staying on .75mg for the rest of your life is not an option since it isn't helping you at all.  Good luck with whatever route you take. 

[[...]]

Thanks, Beeper.

 

I'm leaning towards giving titration a try.

[[no...]]

mmgc- i want to post my experience to you. we have had a similar path. I reinstated too. twice. I won't go into all the details of the story, but the bottom line is- do titration. I did it with milk once and water once, no real difference. I too feared a crossover adjustment, and dry cut 10% about every ten days, no matter what, til I got down to .125. I held that for ten days and then titrated the last. DO NOT jump from the dose- its too high, and will not afford you any benefits, and might really make it more miserable. Do not updose- it will not work for long or maybe not at all. I found that once I reinstated it only gave me relief for a short time, and only from the worst of the w/d, not the whole thing, and eventually tolerance happened. Once you're there, you're only road is out of town, not back in.

Whatever you do, know that in the end, it is doable, and everyone survives this thing, everyone heals.

stay close to BB- it will see you through. It has for me.-S

[[...]]

mmgc- i want to post my experience to you. we have had a similar path. I reinstated too. twice. I won't go into all the details of the story, but the bottom line is- do titration. I did it with milk once and water once, no real difference. I too feared a crossover adjustment, and dry cut 10% about every ten days, no matter what, til I got down to .125. I held that for ten days and then titrated the last. DO NOT jump from the dose- its too high, and will not afford you any benefits, and might really make it more miserable. Do not updose- it will not work for long or maybe not at all. I found that once I reinstated it only gave me relief for a short time, and only from the worst of the w/d, not the whole thing, and eventually tolerance happened. Once you're there, you're only road is out of town, not back in.

Whatever you do, know that in the end, it is doable, and everyone survives this thing, everyone heals.

stay close to BB- it will see you through. It has for me.-S

 

Thank you, northofhere.

 

I appreciate your input and it makes a lot of sense.

 

Hope you are well.

 

 

[[no...]]

mm- Checking in to see how things are. If you start to do titration, know it is easy, tons of us have done it. I never did stabilize really through the taper. I just plodded through, and had ups and downs throughout. I just had to keep making the cuts. In the end, I think slow is better, but at a certain point you aren't gaining anything anymore and you have to just "do the next thing."

I hope things are ok-S

[[...]]

Hi northofhere:

 

Thanks for checking in. 

 

It doesn't look like I'll stabilize so I will need to keep cutting regardless.  As soon as I feel up to it I plan to go to the pharmacy to get some syringes and a 100 ml cylinder to start titrating.

 

Take care.

 

mmgc

[[pa...]]

Hi MM -

 

I dont' have advice for you.  I'm not smart enough for that, or I wouldn't be in my own mess. But I have some words of encouragement.

 

The first time I tried to get off of K, I was NOT in tolerance. I might have tapered, but instead, I did a valium c/o and did a slow taper from that.  It was easy - but jumping off was horrible. I couldnt' last. After 3 weeks off, I reinstated to a little less K.  I was fine on that dose for another 8 months until I reached tolerance - and then I was really really sick.  I woke up each morning vomiting, could barely sleep - was just living in D/R most of the time. It got bad fast for me.

 

I went to detox this time since I didnt' know what else to do and had already tried valium tapering.  Guess what? All they did at detox was a rapid valium taper!  12 days later I was off benzos and back in the same hell.

 

This time, my psychiatrist gave me 15mg of Remeron to sleep and to help with appetite. It DID. It was the reason I made it this time.  I'm very secure that I'll make it through this.  I can see improvement in these past 5-6 months.  I have gone weeks on and off Remeron as I've needed it to sleep - and now I only take 3mg to sleep if at all.

 

I believe that no matter WHAT your journey,, it's tough - but you will make it.  I was one that was like Beeper - I was already in tolerance, so there wasn't any hope for me to stabilize - and the the ONE day I updosed, I felt WORSE.  I believe I'm one of those folks that the literature describes as "not feeling better until they just get off the drug".  Mind you, I'm NOT better yet -but I don't know that I ever really stabilzied at ANY dose on benzos. That being said, IF you can taper - it's probably worth it to try. 

 

I CAN say, I never would have made it through without the Remeron. I have a demanding life and "not sleeping" was not an option for me.  Remeron is fairly benign - like Trazodone - and I was willing to accept it because it immediatley is sedating (not revving like other a/d's) and I had no choice. I had to do something to eat and sleep. I was REALLY bad - but I was one week off of benzos, and the choice between reinstating and trying Remeron was easy.  I have since tapered it several times easily and also added it back in at SMALL doses if I needed it to sleep.  15mg is already the smallest Remeon dose, and is often given for insomnia.  (It exerts its effects on sleep through a powerful antihistimine reaction.)  At any rate, I wanted you to have that information in case you just felt completely stuck without the ability to try anything. 

 

I don't have time to cut/paste the link but if you google "Mirtazipine and benzodiazepine withdrawal"  you wil find a pdf professional article about using Remeron (mirtazepine) during w/d.  I"m not promoting it as something you SHOULD try - just listing it as something in case you are desperate and get to a point where you feel you can't function.  Not saying that will happen! !! Several other buddies have used it and can chime in - cnotr, wisewomanwithissues, and I think chinook has used it for sleep.

 

I SO hope you have a peaceful, easy taper and that none of this is even an issue.

:)Parker

[[pr...]]

mm--Just what I've read and seen with other people going through experiences similar to yours...

 

First, you DID stabilize in December when you first reinstated? That's good.  It means that you may manage to stabilize again at some point in your taper.

 

Clonazepam seems to be one of the ones that most often produces what I call an "unstable taper", which is where people have withdrawal symptoms in spite of holding, and just have to continue their taper.  Usually this tempts people to taper faster.  This usually actually does make things worse, but it's hard to say how much worse because it's never great even at best.

 

I like the idea of titration too, for you, because it allows small and precise cuts.  At these low doses even a small dry cut can be too big.  And it's hard to be exact with the dry cuts even using a scale.  And small variations, at these low doses, can make a big difference.  And you've already discovered that for you it's important to be careful at low doses.

 

Given your history I think if you can try really small cuts at first that would be the best approach.  Maybe less than 10%, at first, just until you see how it affects you.

 

I also HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend keeping a daily journal of your withdrawal symptoms, ranking them on a numerical scale of 1 to 5 or 1 to 10.  And also journal your cuts and also whatever's happening in your life, diet, et cetera, any changes in your routine and any stressors. 

 

We think we can remember all of this and make objective judgments about how our taper is working, but I have discovered through my own sad experience, and seen many times in others, that while in withdrawal we really can't.  I don't know why, but there's something about the process that seems to interfere with our ability to judge and remember properly. 

 

A journal like this is a very helpful tool that will show you patterns and cause/effect relationships that will make it easier for you to adjust your taper to the rate that's optimal for you.  This is ESPECIALLY important if, as in your case, you're not fully stabilizing between cuts.

 

I'm so sorry for your suffering.  I hope things get better for you.

[[...]]

Thanks for your input, parker and prhiannon. 

Much appreciated.

 

Hope you are both doing well.