Don't Understand Brain Fog/Derealization. Feels Permanent Or That It's Me. Help.

[[...]]

Hi, I had a little bit easier weekend but today I've been worrying about all the brain fog and derealization and it's really been scaring me. I keep questioning if these symptoms really ever go away and if the only times I though they've gotten easier is when I wasn't paying as much attention to them. And on top of that I can't ever stop thinking and worrying about all this so of course I can think straight, and wonder if that what causes the brain fog and derealization. And when I get worked up about it all I start to get strong anxiety which causes more physical pain like burning skin in arms and shoulders and the headaches and the weak fatigue. I almost feel like I cause this stuff or that it won't ever go away. I don't know how to explain it. It worries Me that something has happened to my brain that won't stop or that I don't know how to make stop. It's like I want to snap out of it but can't.

 

Is this how it works for everyone? It just feels like it will never leave. Even when I was doing a bit better this weekend it was obviously still there, but not as bad most of the time and I wondered if it's because I wasn't worrying about as much and not as freaked out. That thinking gets me wondering if it really ever goes away or if it's just me. I don't get it. Never felt anything like this in my life before benzos.  Please help me understand and know it's not me and it will go away.

[[Pa...]]

I feel the same way as you coop. I can be doing fairly well physically yet the dp/dr remains strong. Since I began my taper I have not experienced a window from either of these most troubling symptoms. I worry that it's permanent or brain damage. I can hardly find comfort on my family because I feel as though I have no idenity and they feel foreign and unfamiliar.

[[Pa...]]

From all the reading I've done regarding dp/dr it does seem to pass, it's just a matter of time. Sorry you're struggling with these awful symptoms. I'm convinced they come straight from hell.

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I don't know which one is worse or freaks me out more, most likely the fog. I can't think straight and clearly, my mind feels like a mess. So of course there is large amount of anxiety about that all the time no matter what. So I seem to always be thinking about it no matter what because I'm aware of it. And I wonder if that constant thought and awareness is what causes the derealization. Derealization happening because you can't fully concentrate on the world or anything since my main focus is my mind being so messed up. And then I wonder if it's the panic about that situation that causes intense physical symptoms. It just feels like I have to forget about in order to heal. It seems like my brain is permanently broken. I hate this feeling.

[Guest [...]]

Australia 10am Tuesday 28-Feb-12      27 degrees C

 

Sympathising with ya, Coop!

 

I'm a worrier from way back and I know there's nothing like worry, to make worry worse. Just paste 'anxiety' into the 'worry' box.

 

You've answered your own question. It's not you - it's the thinking. The bloody eternal thinking. I know because I do it. How do we learn not to think so much? It's hard. Especially when it is a lifelong addiction. And there are always going to be things to think and worry about. Because we are humans who have families and friends and illnesses.

 

I know that when I was very busy and occupied with raising 4 children, I didn't stop worrying but it took a bit of a back seat. I worried more about others than myself, I guess.

 

And what's there NOT to worry about? Just look at the world. (I do - all the time.)

 

Sorry I haven't the answer.

 

I had a look at your signature. Hard to fathom why you were given Klon to get off hydrocodone. If I weren't such a delicate lady, I would say 'WTF?' Made me shake in my boots (bare feet). Codeine is supposed to be much easier to get off than benzos. I'm hoping. Different receptors.

 

I first had a taste of Panadeine Forte (paracetamol 500mg codeine phosphate 30mg) when in panic mode before an MRI for several days of unremitting headache after onset caused by orgasm. Bliss - the headache relief, that is!

 

I then used them sporadically for severe headaches (not the almost daily milder headaches). I used to use the milder Panadeine (paracetamol 500mg codeine 10mg) daily for fibromyalgia. Didn't work much but you know how you keep hoping. Then I thought I may as well take one 'Forte' to get the extra codeine and less of the liver damaging paracetamol. GP agreed with this brilliant reasoning. Then of course I started taking 2 tablets because I needed them to put a dent in the morning pain. Was at 4 tabs at one stage but cut back quickly.

 

Silly me didn't know that codeine affected mood. Duh! (Did someone say 'related to morphine'?) When they stopped helping pain I just thought, 'Stop taking the bastards!' (Like you do before you visit benzo forum land!) Meltdown time. Actually went to my GP and said I was ready to try an antidepressant. Lexapro please. Kind GP said, 'Well you haven't tried an antidepressant for 10 years. You can give Lexapro a go.' (Had been recommended by a friend - long time male user.) Come back in 2 weeks. Didn't of course.

 

Talk about placebo effect! I felt cured before I took one of the bloody things. I don't even think anti depressants work but I have a bit of a small crush on my sweet GP! They didn't do much except make sure I never had another orgasm headache (if you get my drift). My current psychiatrist says they are horrible stuff. However I just quit those after a couple of months anyway as they were useless.

 

I digress. I find using the Panadeine Forte eases anxiety in this bloody taper nightmare. I am going to quit them after I get off the nasty Valium. Psych agrees that it is a better idea to wait until I finish one thing off. All they do now is feed the monster of addiction. They do still help if I get a bad headache though.

 

I am thinking that 60mg codeine will not be hard to get off. Will it? I've looked up hydrcodone but don't know how it compares with codeine phosphate. Would appreciate some wisdom on this. I used to take 2 in the morning to give the early morning pain a kick. Now I take one in the morning and one in the evening (something to look forward to - small mercies).

 

Appreciate your wisdom, Coop.

 

Xana

[[Pa...]]

Both the fog and derealization are hard to forget because they attack aspects of your being. It's not like a cut or scrape. It's not superficial or something you can just "forget" about. You can try your best to ignore it and not let it paralyze you or keep you inside all day ruminating on it. I'm not sure how much we actually control as far as not thinking about it goes. It's near impossible to

Control your thoughts and when you honestly feel something is very wrong it's only natural to worry about in and try and understand it so that you might conquer it. Over analyzing is a symptom of dp and dr. I can't help but constantly test myself so to speak to gauge it's severity from day to day week to week. I had extreme extreme DR and still get it bad most days, especially at night but I can tell you that some days it's way better and almost non existent. However the Dp has yet to let up which is really disturbing. I feel as though I have no idenity and fear that I'll never get it back. Brain fog I've had really bad on and off. At times it's actually HURT to think, don't really know how to explain it other than that. Almost like my brain was fried or fragmented. That has gotten bettr but I still have many man cognitive impairments such as inability to feel time, a general obliviousness to the world around me (I used to be hyper aware of everything), I'm

Very forgetful (totally unlike me normally I'm OCD and I always know where I place things), awful awful memory problems that feel alot like mild amnesia. I could keep going but you get the picture. For me the Depersonalization is the very worst symptom. It shakes me

to my very core and I personally can't ignore it.

[Guest [...]]

hahahaah Xana

 

 

Im crying and you just cracked me up with your orgasm headache only you could say it so well.  Sorry Coop back to you I to have the brain fog its dreadful cant see through the fog so to speak.  R we always going to be looking through the fog i surely hope not.

 

anyway guys keep on keeping on

 

Lizzy

[[Wh...]]

All I can say Coop is that the depersonalization/derealization went away for me and for that I am very grateful.  I don't think anyone would be able to cope with it perfectly so don't be hard on yourself.  Just get thru each day and stop blaming yourself or trying to control this process ... it's hopeless to do that.  This healing plays itself out on it's own time.  The thing is that you are doing this very hard work Coop to get drug-free and that is highly commendable.  Remember to pat yourself on the back for what you're doing in case no one else does. 

 

Lizzy and Xana are such welcome characters. 

[[be...]]

Hey Guys,

 

I'm another one who can tell you that the DR/DP leaves.  I only have it slightly at night now that comes and goes.  It is so slight that I hardly notice it at all.  I know that in a few more months it will be gone completely because the on and off thing is what happened to me during the daytime and I no longer have it during the day at all.

 

My DR/DR was so bad that I only saw in black and white, like looking thru smoke or a fog.  I also thought I was dead and didnt know it yet.  If I can come back from the dead, then so will you.  Promise.

 

 

[[sp...]]

I've never heard of DP/DR being permanent, even among people who acquire it from much more seriously messed up situations (like me taking stupid amounts of acid weekly for months when I was ~17-18). I had a DP/DR episode that lasted 9 months from that, when I was about 20, and I was alternately terrified that it would never go away and terrified that I was literally not really alive (I would wonder if I was in a coma, or had been abducted by aliens who had me hooked up to a matrix-like machine that "couldn't accurately emulate my reality" which would explain why everything felt so wrong), but in the end, once my brain had been off the drugs for long enough, it started to pump out the right neurotransmitters again and everything leveled out.

 

I know you feel really , but you're going to be fine if you just give this thing enough time and don't overthink it. I know when I was at my worst with DP/DR, about the only thing I could stand to do was watch Star Trek: The Next Generation, because it was something I had watched a lot as a kid so I was 'familiar' with it. Which is not to say it made me feel normal, or grounded -- I was too messed up to take much comfort in it. But, it passed the time until I could take comfort in things again. Reading is probably a tall order right now, and meditation may actually feel too weird. My best advice is to find a dumb, happy TV show that you can stand to watch, and get the whole thing, and just watch it. It may not seem to make you feel better, but it will pass the time, and that may be what you need right now.

 

Good luck, man. My heart really goes out to you, I've been through a lot of what you're going through and I know how the idea of ever feeling better can seem distant and unreal. At the height of my DP/DR I remember writing:

"I feel like if I ever come out on the other side of whatever this is, I probably won't even really remember what this feels like, it's too alien, too strange". And, in some ways I was right about that -- the only time I remember is when I get little flashes of DP/DR again and think "oh shit not this again", but now it's just a weird feeling I get sometimes when the light hits something in a certain way, and I can just watch the feeling until it passes. You'll get there, too.

[[Pa...]]

Believe, did family members and familiar faces look weird and unfamiliar? Did you feel no sense of self, idenity or defining characteristics? Did you ever get weird out about like people? Like sometimes

I get freaked out thinking about how there are other living breathing people around me and it freaks me out. Did you feel like a stranger?  Or like a different person entirely?

[[...]]

For you guys that stated it's gotten better and almost gone away, did you have brain fog and cognitive dysfunction with it? It's seems to me that's why I get this extra anxiety which causes the dp/dr...or is just the anxiety caused by withdrawal causing this and I can just make it worse with worry? And it really all goes away?

[[sp...]]

coop: yes, for me DP/DR and 'brain fog' are almost the same thing. when everything feels 'wrong', trying to do things like basic math can be very hard. You are also probably right that anxiety is making DP/DR worse, and DP/DR is making the anxiety worse --- see how that works? It's a feedback cycle. A vicious, evil feedback cycle. The good news about that is, when you start to find ways to feel a little better, those will feed each other, too.

 

Panicattackzak: what you are describing sounds exactly like the DP/DR I had. Yes to faces looking strange, yes to no sense of self, yes to freaking out about normal day to day things. There are specific parts of the brain which have been identified that specifically match faces, it's an evolutionary mechanism we have which goes haywire during DP/DR. In time you may come to actually appreciate the perspective this gives you on your mind, but right now, to the extent you look at specific things and think "that is strange and awful", just look away, try not to feed it.

 

Everything is really strange. I don't think DP/DR is a 'hallucination' as much as it's a case where the normal filters that let us go about our daily lives and pretend that everything is normal are getting shut off. Believe it or not, many people take psychedelic drugs to recreate exactly that experience; it's just strange and terrifying when it arises as a result of something that we cannot control.

[[Pa...]]

Thank you so much Spengler it helps more than you can imagine to know I'm not alone. It totally feels like I lost the part of my brain that deals with facial recognition. It's terrifying.

[[sp...]]

Yeah, that whole "everything looks alien and unreal" is one of the worst things I've been through, and as I said on the last page in my case it dragged on for months (because it was LSD-induced and not benzo induced, I think it was even more severe). The upside of that experience is that when those experiences have come out in withdrawal, some part of my mind is detached enough to say "oh no you don't!"

 

One thing my mother said that really helped me was, "Spengler, as someone with anxiety and with experience with meditation, I can tell you for sure that if I sit around asking myself 'what's real? Am I real? Is anything real?', it will put me into a very strange and unpleasant state. That's not abnormal, that's just your mind". The less you can overthink this, the easier it gets. That's why I'm such a big advocate of just trying to focus your conscious attention on simple things like dumb, happy TV shows when you're in this state.

 

So, you're not alone, and it does get better When you come out on the other side of this, I'd love to have an in depth philosophical conversation about what all this can teach us about our minds and our lives, but right now I don't want to go there because fixating on it won't help you.

[[Bo...]]

So sorry you are having the fog/Depersonalization withdrawal symptom. I had this exact problem for the past week. I worried that I would be permanently retarded because I felt mentally and cognitively slow, inattentive, very confused and unfocused. (I was never this way before benzos but Its just a symptom). I have improved since then and know now that I becoming myself again. Things do clear up. I hope you feel better. Time and patience will heal this symptom. Recovery does happen!

[[be...]]

Panic - yes.  It was so bad that i didnt recognize myself or son emotionally.  I felt that my arms and hand didnt belong to me.  I know that it was protecting me from extreme anxiety which would have given me a heart attack and physical pain.  As it lifted I started to feel more.  Trust that your brain knows what it is doing.  It is not a psy problem.  It is a natural defense that every normal person has.

 

 

 

 

[[be...]]

Coop -  My cognitive stuff was always worse during the DR.  It seemed that being on the computer and under fluorescent lighting like at Walmart made it worse.

[[Fl...]]

Cog fog and dr are no fun but when they subside they are often replaced by anxiety. The theory is that these are mechanisms that allow the brain to cope with the severe stress of wd so when they go away the anxiety and other psychological symptoms they were masking often return.

 

I recently got a break in the fog/dr but wouldn't you know, I then got hit with anxiety, the likes of which I haven't felt for 8 or 9 months. Mostly it was for a period of a few hours in the evening but I did have one day where I was pounded with waves of panicky anxiety all day long. No fun.

[[mo...]]

Coop -  My cognitive stuff was always worse during the DR.  It seemed that being on the computer and under fluorescent lighting like at Walmart made it worse.

 

OMG!!! YES!! Thank you for saying that about the florescent lights!! I've been saying this for 8 weeks now. DR only hits me really bad when I am out and about in large public spaces and especially so under bright lights. I hate the lighting at my work.

 

For me it's worse in the morning and I get this weird pressure in my head. Then, after a good lunch it seems to lessen in the afternoon. I NEVER get it at home.

 

As far as the anxiety goes, I find that bad DR actually gives me anxiety. Esp. if I'm out in public trying to go about my life and it's hindering me. It can put me in a panic because I get so frustrated.

[[no...]]

So, if I just never feel "right" and everything feels wrong in this unexplainable way, it could just be the DR or DP thing? I have been thinking for a while how I never feel right, always like I am no longer able to feel ..a sense of self and belonging, and like coop, I constantly monitor everything, so that makes it worse.

I am 6 months off, is it weird to still have this?

And thanks for the florescent lighting comment...

[[cn...]]

I think it's easy for us to get caught up in the "when will this leave? when will this stop? why? is there something else wrong?" This type of thinking is just anxiety at it's best. Maybe w/d anxiety, some of it may just be anxiety caused by w/d anxiety. lol.

 

It's also VERY easy to become obsessed... obsessions about getting better... etc. etc. this thinking pattern can do a lot of harm too.

 

You said you feel better when you don't give it much thought.  I know it's WAY easier said than done. But keep trying to distract yourself. Find a small project maybe?

 

I have felt pretty dang awesome through my w/d and even after jumping. But 4 months out, I just got hit with some bad anxiety stuff about 4 days ago.

 

I keep obsessing, and obsessing about feelings, heart pounding, throat tension... breathing... not very good sleep. It's sucks. But I just keep reminding myself, IT WILL PASS. IT WILL.

 

But then I feel the feeling of "let down". I'll think to myself "why now? I did so good for 4 months! barley could complain about anything! Could this still be benzo w/d? Could this be a flare-up?"

 

The unknown answer to that is what sucks for me. B/c I have to wait at least 1 year to truly find out if I truly have general anxiety, or if most of this is just benzo w/d.

 

One symptom that I have, which is muscle twitching all over... this symptom, kind of helps remind me that it's still probably benzo w/d. B/c muscle twitching is def. a w/d symptom. And I'm still twitching 4 months out. =P

 

I'm just taking it easy on myself. I love bedtime lately. Even though sleep seems to be light sleep... early wakening lately... I just love taking a hot shower, crawling into bed, reading a book, putting on a light movie in the background, stretching, then going to bed. =)

 

Do you feel better once you crawl in bed at night? Like you made it through one more day? =) Hang in there. You seem to be doing so much better than the last time I saw you on there. =)

[[mo...]]

Something else interesting about DR that I just realized. I have been avoiding alcohol lately after reading in the Ashton Manual that it can make DR worse. But last night I had a half a glass of wine and today DR is more persistent, despite having had one of the best sleeps in a long, long time and not having a single other sx today. Just the DR. Could it be the wine after all?

[[mo...]]

Another DR realization. I took a multi/B vitamin this afternoon and DR and anxiety are semi bad. Very interesting. Just thought I'd share that with you all. I wonder if there's a connection.

[[sp...]]

the one time I had two beers during my long DP/DR episode, it made everything amazingly worse for at least the rest of that day. This was also before I had read that could happen.