Distinguishing between withdrawal and relapse - post your longest "hold" time

[[ro...]]

Trying to get an idea of whether my WD symptoms (head pressure, dissociation, feeling spacey, headaches, dizziness, etc.) are due to my brain still not having caught up with my last cut (over 8 weeks ago, however I made 2x ~7% before that within 20 days). Most people have told me it's not strange not to have stabilized after 6 weeks (when I asked at 6 weeks). Now 2 months and I feel baaad, but it's one of those things where during the day it will fluctuate and some days are much better than others (so maybe healing?). Anyway, my underlying condition has the EXACT symptoms of clonazepam WD, so I don't know what's going on. In short, if you wouldn't mind posting:

 

- the longest time you held for in order to stabilize

 

Obviously some people just bulldoze through it after waiting 2-4 weeks even though they don't feel 80-95%. If I knew that I was just going through WD, I wouldn't mind, but I don't. I fear I've hit my limit and that I need the dose I was previously on. Anyway, for those who have taken it slowly and stabilized at each point, some insight SVP! Thanks!

 

RR

[[Sc...]]

When I first began my taper, I did it under my Psychiatrists supervision and she had my cut my dose from 1mg of Clonazepam to .75mg of Clonazepam.  I got slammed a few days later and that's how my journey began.  It took me 2 more months to final "Google" my meds and I realized I was getting slammed by Benzo withdrawal.  I held that dose for 5 months...I became so fearful of moving on b/c of how hard that cut was.  Things improved slightly, but never by much.  I finally decided to do the crossover to Diazepam and that's when I began to taper again.  The longest I ever held from the Diazepam cuts was 12 days. 

 

All my best,

Schatje

[[an...]]

The longest I've held was 4 weeks. I usually hold for 2.

[[Ho...]]

I held for 4 months after some very big cuts. I've just recently started cutting again (5% every 10 - 14 days).

 

RR, maybe you could fill out your signature line so we know which benzo your on and your taper rate..etc. 

[[ha...]]

I was trying to hold for one week and found that it was awful. I hold for about 3 or 4 weeks. I don't feel great at the end of the month, but when I do the next cut, I realize that I had stabilized more than I thought, then I go through the cycle again.

[[ro...]]

I held for 4 months after some very big cuts. I've just recently started cutting again (5% every 10 - 14 days).

 

RR, maybe you could fill out your signature line so we know which benzo your on and your taper rate..etc. 

 

Ah yes, thanks Hope, just did that!

 

So when you hold for 4 months, do you reach baseline? I ask because when I dropped from 4 to 3.5 the WD lasted only 10 days and then I returned to baseline completely. Not so with the following cuts (all <10%, while 4 to 3.5 is above 10%).

[[ha...]]

I think a lot of us find that the initial cuts are not as bad as the ones that are towards the end of the taper. I had a few horrible days at the beginning, but had many more symptoms later. That is why it was suggested to me that I taper more slowly now. Frustrating as anything, but the alternative would not be pretty. 

[[Bi...]]

The longest I held was 12 - 14 days.

 

Billy.

[[Ho...]]

I held for 4 months after some very big cuts. I've just recently started cutting again (5% every 10 - 14 days).

 

RR, maybe you could fill out your signature line so we know which benzo your on and your taper rate..etc. 

 

Ah yes, thanks Hope, just did that!

 

So when you hold for 4 months, do you reach baseline? I ask because when I dropped from 4 to 3.5 the WD lasted only 10 days and then I returned to baseline completely. Not so with the following cuts (all <10%, while 4 to 3.5 is above 10%).

 

If by "baseline" you mean, did I feel better; the answer is yes. It took about a month but I felt perfectly fine.

 

My latest cut has been 5%. I've felt that cut. It's been about 10 days and I feel just about the same. Given the small amount I've cut I'm surprised I feel anything at all. However, my symptoms are very mild and very manageable at present.

 

What hanna says is very true. Members report that the cuts they make closer to the end of their taper are more difficult. Btw, you can develop tolerance even while in the midst of tapering.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-information/tolerance-addiction-dependency

[[bl...]]

RR

 

I replied to your earlier post and suffer the same concerns about the return of an underlying condition. I am proceeding on the basis that I want off these meds and then deal with any legacy problems without using medication. Couple of points 1) Benzos don't cure anything and only mask symptoms it is likely therefore that if your HPPD hasn't resolved itself it is likely that it would re emerge as the dose is reduced 2) As a counter argument you dropped the equivalent of 10mgs of Valium in 20 days in Dec. I have taken about 10months to lose this amount. So who knows whats going on.

The advice I have had from several Dr's is that you need to get off the drug let things settle down and see what you are left with. Benzos can mimic just about any physical or mental condition.

 

Take care RR

 

B

[[mi...]]

I simply cut 5mg Librium every 3 weeks. The only problems I seem to have is slight headaches and benzo gut. I won't cut any more than 5mg and I don't cut before the 3 weeks is up. I have only held a dose for a few extra days one time and only because I was sick with norovirus. Other than that, never. If I feel at any time I need to hold a dose, I will but for now it's a small dose every 3rd week. Although I would love to be off this drug faster, the way I see it, it took me 10 years to build up a tolerance and if I have to spend another year to get off the drug, so be it.

[[ro...]]

 

 

If by "baseline" you mean, did I feel better; the answer is yes. It took about a month but I felt perfectly fine.

 

My latest cut has been 5%. I've felt that cut. It's been about 10 days and I feel just about the same. Given the small amount I've cut I'm surprised I feel anything at all. However, my symptoms are very mild and very manageable at present.

 

What hanna says is very true. Members report that the cuts they make closer to the end of their taper are more difficult. Btw, you can develop tolerance even while in the midst of tapering.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-information/tolerance-addiction-dependency

 

Hmm, so if it's been 2 months for me and I'm nowhere near fine and it only took you a month (which is the guideline most people give for adjusting to a cut), then am I not "past the point of stabilization potential" for this dose? In other words, since I still haven't stabilized, doesn't it mean I won't at this dose and that it is, as blower1 points out possibly that I have gone to a dose that doesn't manage my condition anymore (= tolerance, hence the original need to be at a higher dose)? OR is it his other suggestion that since I made the first two cuts rather aggressively, I'm paying for all three cuts now and it will just take longer than 2months to get to baseline (feel fine)? I realize these questions have no definite answer, more anecdotal ones, but they still help. If someone has required longer than 2 months to eventually stabilize, but they did, then it gives me a reason not to updose to 3. I can't get off clonazepam if my HPPD is still there. People say learn different ways to cope, but I assure you my condition IS the same thing as mind blowingly bad benzo withdrawal, so getting off them won't help me if I still have it.

 

PS. blower1, did you get my PM that I sent when you replied to me earlier (that you are referring to)?

[[bl...]]

Yes & Yes

 

B

[[Ho...]]

 

 

If by "baseline" you mean, did I feel better; the answer is yes. It took about a month but I felt perfectly fine.

 

My latest cut has been 5%. I've felt that cut. It's been about 10 days and I feel just about the same. Given the small amount I've cut I'm surprised I feel anything at all. However, my symptoms are very mild and very manageable at present.

 

What hanna says is very true. Members report that the cuts they make closer to the end of their taper are more difficult. Btw, you can develop tolerance even while in the midst of tapering.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-information/tolerance-addiction-dependency

 

Hmm, so if it's been 2 months for me and I'm nowhere near fine and it only took you a month (which is the guideline most people give for adjusting to a cut), then am I not "past the point of stabilization potential" for this dose? In other words, since I still haven't stabilized, doesn't it mean I won't at this dose and that it is, as blower1 points out possibly that I have gone to a dose that doesn't manage my condition anymore (= tolerance, hence the original need to be at a higher dose)? OR is it his other suggestion that since I made the first two cuts rather aggressively, I'm paying for all three cuts now and it will just take longer than 2months to get to baseline (feel fine)? I realize these questions have no definite answer, more anecdotal ones, but they still help. If someone has required longer than 2 months to eventually stabilize, but they did, then it gives me a reason not to updose to 3. I can't get off clonazepam if my HPPD is still there. People say learn different ways to cope, but I assure you my condition IS the same thing as mind blowingly bad benzo withdrawal, so getting off them won't help me if I still have it.

 

PS. blower1, did you get my PM that I sent when you replied to me earlier (that you are referring to)?

 

These questions are nearly impossible for me to answer. I can only tell you my experience. As you know, we're all different and what's been true for me may not be true for you. I can't speak to your medical condition in relation to benzos. I can say that, in my opinion, if a person hasn't stabilize after holding for 2 months, the odds are they won't. Having said that, I also am familiar with the concept of cuts catching up to you. I think that happened to me early on, which is one of the reasons I held. I could have continued on with my taper but it was close to Christmas time and I had a lot to do, which is why I held so long.

 

I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[[ha...]]

I am familiar with cuts catching up to me, too. Not pleasant.

 

The other thing I think about is the idea that I have that we probably don't get totally better totally after each cut. I went into tolerance w/d at the beginning of all this. Maybe I am going into tolerance w/d at each point and there will be no totally fine till I am off.

 

There was something that really helped me (sort of.....). I try to decide on my cut ahead of time. I am supposed to do it every 4 weeks. I did the last cut early, as I knew I had a couple of days to deal with the immediate affects - and despite the 1/2 live of k, I get effects within 8 hours. That way, I have a plan, so I don't need to go through the angst I went through at the beginning about which day to cut.

 

I think Prof. Ashton's work is amazing, because she did it as true clinical research with the goal to help the people. She now is helping all of us. I don't thing we need to follow it exactly and doubt that she would have wanted us to as it was the first step. A couple of things I have found - read about a lot of people switching to valium. What I read of what she was doing suggested two good reasons - very long half-life, which is really important, and being able to get the medication in smaller doses, which isn't so important if you are going to titrate or can get a compound pharmacist. Because k was long acting and now I have a compounding pharmacist, I am doing the taper with k. I have read here that some people can cross over to valium easily, and others find it really hard.

 

I think getting a sense of what a hold time will mean for you will really help. For many of us, there seems to be a rhythm to this.  So I think you are asking one of the most important questions about all of this!!! I really do and it gets me thinking, too. Thank you and good luck with it.

[[mi...]]

I don't believe that the lower one gets in a dose, the worse it gets if you are crossed over to Valium or Librium and taking your time, eating all the right things to rebuild the GABA and let the receptors heal. I have heard of people who take their last dose and do just fine. I plan to be on of those people. I have also noticed a pattern. It seems all the ones coming off of Klonopin seem to be having the hardest time. I am so glad I had a bad reaction years ago when I was offered it to try. I tried just 5mg and felt like a zombie and wanted to just sit in one place and stare. Needless to say I never touched that benzo again! I also hear Xanax is another hard core benzo. Again, I was given this and had a bad experience similar to Klonopin. Also Klonopin gave me anxiety after I started to come off that 5mg.

[[ro...]]

Thing about crossing over to Valium is that for many people (I imagine myself included), it simply won't work because some take Clonazepam for its anticonvulsant as opposed to antianxyolytic (sp? as in the major symptom is psychological anxiety) properties. My disorder is very much physical and in fact I've never had a panic attack. Ever. Thus, I'm faced with the major question of whether my condition is truly gone after 5 years or whether it still requires treatment with clonazepam.

 

Hanna, on the issue of tolerance w/d, isn't the mere fact that one is withdrawing mean that for at least some period of time the GABA receptors aren't being activated as much as they were (getting less benzo to activate them). This in itself would be the same thing as tolerance, i.e. the amount of benzo you are giving your receptors isn't enough to keep them activated at a certain (call it baseline) level. They need to naturally reactivate and start producing more GABA. In the typical case of tolerance, there isn't really a "taking away" of benzo's from the receptors, rather they aren't activate by the same amount after awhile. Anyway, I guess what I'm driving at it that isn't withdrawal pretty much mechanistically the same as tolerance until your receptors produce more GABA on their own (at which point you "stabilize").

 

Also, IF the theory is correct that one doesn't really get better during the tapering, why would someone get better after coming off benzos completely. Presumably the receptors still have to catch up once there are 0 benzos, and if anything probably more. I've never understood the concept that during a WD you might not stabilize but after you're off them you will. Could you shed light on that?

 

I realize it isn't an absolute statement, Hope, about probabilistically not stabilizing now that it's been 2 months, however, I haven't yet read anything to the contrary so you're probably right. Then again, as Hanna says, maybe the cuts catching up (actually both you and Blower1 said the same) is, in my case causing this. I can't see my doctor until next week, but when I do, what do you guys advise? Updose to 3mg/day (remember I was on 3.5 in early December so it's still a relative cut) OR do I keep trudging on?

 

If I never stabilize at this dose, logic tells me I'll never stabilize at ANY dose. Taking longer is one thing. Never stabilizing means I have to stay on it. Opinions? Thanks again btw.