Guest [wi...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I posted this in taper substitute plans but no one is answering, of course. My doctor has some formulaic device that states that .5 mg k is = to 5 mg of valium, contradictory to what the "go to" ashton says is .5 to 10 mg. So according to her, i'm upping my dose for the cross over (also according to my pharmacist) which she's fine with, but according to everything i read on the internet which is based off that ONE MANUAL, i'm cutting out over 30 percent of a dose. These were made years ago, there's no other study. There's some reason what she had made that equation. What is the deal? I can't find any other articles or news on Ashton. What if she's not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Be...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Under Prof Ashton's equivalency chart it says "These equivalents do not agree with those used by some authors. They are firmly based on clinical experience during switch-over to diazepam at start of withdrawal programs but may vary between individuals." (underlining is mine) I've always figured that 1) people metabolize different benzos differently so there's bound to be variation in reaction and 2) the numbers given must be an averages based on the her research, not some absolute figure. We've certainly had a few people over the years who did well on less Valium than indicated on the chart. I don't believe that hundreds of health professionals and authors would be using her work as a basis for their treatments and books if they didn't believe that her scientific process was sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[cn...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think the important thing here is that the Ashton Manual has been around for so long and many many people have had great success with it. Maybe some haven't? We are all wired differently and I think we need to do what feels best for us. If you feel more comfortable doing it your Drs way to then do it. Vice versa. I didn't follow the Ashton Manual. And I believe I'm 99% healed. Best wishes to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [wi...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thanks for responding guys. I only have to question the manual and not my doctor cuz hey if she has a chart that says otherwise she's not going to prescribe me more than I was taking you know, so better to have the thought that ashton is not accurate than freak out that i'm going to have it hard. Also, Beeper thanks for the last info. Yes, all this does vary from person to person. Even the withdrawal. I'm just excited/scared that I've started the first step finally after all this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hi, you are very fortunate to even find a Dr that is going along with a crossover, mine and 2 pharms I spoke with wont even consider putting me on another benzo so I am on my own with this except for this amazing group of buddies, good luck, I too am excited and scared of the journey but we have at least begun. Ladygrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [Pf...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 There probably is not exact equivalence. I don't think one can measure it in the abstract. So the only way to go is clinical experience in terms of putting out a chart. I think Ashton has a lot of experience. But she says there is a lot of variation from person to person. In terms of a given individual, a good doctor in any field will take account of how a patient reacts. It is important that your doctor treat the cross-over as a starting point, and be willing to adjust based upon your reaction. That requires that the doctor trust you to not simply be looking for more drugs -- if you want off, then of course a doctor should accept this. It also requires the doctor to accept that you cannot practice medicine purely from a textbook. I have experienced both types of doctors. I have had doctors say "What you are experiencing is not possible" That is bad medicine. It may be that something is missing, but to tell a patient that what is happening is not happing is illogical. I have also had doctors say "That suprises me, but given what I see that is the most likely conclusion." I had an issue with blood pressure. We tried some things that didn't work. My doctor fortunately said "I see this is not working. I do not know what else to try, maybe follow up with another doctor to see if he has different ideas." Eventually I found something that worked. When I went back to my original doctor, he said "Great. I woiuld not have expected that, but if it is working, then keep doing that." So too, if you do the crossover the doctor wants and it is clear that you do not have enough drug in you to keep symptoms reasonable, the doctor needs to be willing to adjust. And this is something that you should discuss beforehand. I say that for two reasons. First, if you have discussed this beforehand, you will likely be more confident. You can say "I hope this works, but if it doesn't, we can figure out what to do." Second, if it doesn't work, you will have a plan in place and won't have to start struggling with yoiur doctor or looking for another one or trying all sorts of other types of meds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [wi...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well the great thing about my doctor is she is willing to work with me. I guess it's the fact that we're not exactly following Asthon protocol, which I studied on all these sites, that threw me off guard. But hey, I've been in situations where I was on a lot of mgs for a while (stupid binge drinking) to 2mg k and went back down to .75 no problem whatsoever. It's any .25 cut after that that was problematic. She said to call in a week if there was problems and i can just go back to my k and figure something eles out, and offered to have a follow up in two weeks. I suggested three (as opposed to our usual 4-5) just because i wanted it to build up more. Also, I asked this in another section, why do people do a slow cross over with two meds? I've jumped from xanax to ativan to klonopin and back and never had troubles. Most troube was with xanax cuz that just does not work for me, and it was after taking two bottles of meds, being in the hospital on remeron and tons of ativan and then nothing. I don't know if I didn't cross to xanax successfully or if it was the withdrawal from the OD or if it's just xanax period. who knows. We can guess and decipher all we want, everyone's different. But back to my question, why the slow c/o? Can some people just switch> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Be...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well the great thing about my doctor is she is willing to work with me. I guess it's the fact that we're not exactly following Asthon protocol, which I studied on all these sites, that threw me off guard. But hey, I've been in situations where I was on a lot of mgs for a while (stupid binge drinking) to 2mg k and went back down to .75 no problem whatsoever. It's any .25 cut after that that was problematic. She said to call in a week if there was problems and i can just go back to my k and figure something eles out, and offered to have a follow up in two weeks. I suggested three (as opposed to our usual 4-5) just because i wanted it to build up more. Also, I asked this in another section, why do people do a slow cross over with two meds? I've jumped from xanax to ativan to klonopin and back and never had troubles. Most troube was with xanax cuz that just does not work for me, and it was after taking two bottles of meds, being in the hospital on remeron and tons of ativan and then nothing. I don't know if I didn't cross to xanax successfully or if it was the withdrawal from the OD or if it's just xanax period. who knows. We can guess and decipher all we want, everyone's different. But back to my question, why the slow c/o? Can some people just switch> I would say your own experience indicates that some people can just switch and not have a lot of problems. The information on this site is generally aimed at "most people" but there are always exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest [Pf...] Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I would expect that some people can just switch. Just like some people can just stop with little or no symptoms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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