Taper plan

[[Mo...]]

On 17/06/2024 at 21:30, [[C...] said:

Okay good....I had some PMs with her tonight and she is saying to put the two weights from the Gemini scale on the new scale's weighing pan and then push Tare and then put the shaved pill on the weighing pan.

I used my Gemini tonight and it was bouncing between 161 and 164 and I needed 162 so since it hit 162 twice I decided to go with that.

I have only made two cuts on my old scale so have had two days of tapering and I have gone from very bad to horrible. My anxiety is beyond anything I have had before. Usually I get a small window by this time 12:30 in EST but I am just a bundle of nerves.

I am glad we are starting this together.

How is it going with your new scale?

[[Mo...]]

2 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

How is it going with your new scale?

Like I told Ellie, I haven't been able to try it out yet because of major water problems in our house. Hopefully next week.

[[El...]]

@[Mo...] So very sorry to hear about your water issues!  It sounds like  a very stressful situation.  Congratulations for being so calm!  I'll be thinking about you.

[[Mo...]]

Thanks, talk soon!

[[Mo...]]

Hi Pamster, the other day you had asked me about my dosing. At the time, I had thought about dosing 4 times a day would lessen interdose withdrawals, but it would probably make the taper more difficult, so I am staying with 3 x a day which is 7am, 3pm and 11pm.  I was thinking though when you asked if I set an alarm, I do for my 3pm dose so as not to forget if I'm doing other things, but not for my am dose because it is easy to remember when I first wake up. However, sometimes it might be at 6:45am or if I wake at 7:30. Do you think that time makes a big difference? Just curious because I know you're supposed to take your dose 'around' the same time, but didn't know if 30 or 45 minutes would make a difference.

[[Mo...]]

Hi Ellie, you mentioned you could help me set up the scale you had suggested (Analytical balance lab digital precision scale 110V). As you said, it is in Chinese so I'd appreciate your help when you get a chance. Thank you

[[El...]]

@[Mo...] I will give you instructions for my scale. My scale came with the draft shield doors (both sides and top) already installed. I only had to insert the metal pan ring and the metal pan and attach the power adaptor. If yours is slightly different, let me know the differences so I can give you further directions. I have also included instructions for calibration.

1. Place the scale on a level, sturdy surface, away from sunlight, away from air drafts, away from sources of heat or air conditioning, and in an area free of vibration (out of foot traffic and away from vibrating appliances like a washing machine, dryer or dishwasher).

2. Make sure the scale is level. You can use a carpenter’s level (if you have one). You may just need to “eyeball” it. If the “legs” on the balance are adjustable, you can use those to level it, if it appears unlevelled.

3. Insert the power adaptor at the back if the scale.

4. Fit the metal pan ring around the central “hole” in the interior middle the scale.

5. Place the shaft of the metal pan into the hole. Make sure is securely in place. Your weighing surface is now prepared.

6. Plug in the scale. Press the power button. Allow the scale to “warm up” for 30-60 minutes.

7. To calibrate: When the scale shows +/- "0.000 g”, press the “Cal” button. It should say something like “ Please Wait”. When “100” appears, press “Cal” again. “100” should blink. Place the calibration weight (that came with the scale), on the pan. Close all the draft shield doors . After a few seconds, “100.000 g” will appear. Remove the calibration weight. Your scale is now calibrated and you are ready to begin. You should calibrate it before each use in case the humidity or temperature has changed.

8. Always keep the draft shield doors closed between weighings and when not in use. This will keep dust off the pan.

9. Do not weigh directly on the pan surface. If you do, pill fragments may remain on the surface of the pan. Use a weigh pan (weigh dish) for your weighings of your pill. You can always remove the pan ring and pan to gently dust them if pill fragments or dust accumulates. Do not wash with water or cleaning fluids.

10. Lastly, do not keep weight on the pan when not in use. This may alter the weighing accuracy.

11. Side note: You will probably not need any of the other function keys except the “Tare” key if you usually use the tare function.

Hope this helps and that your water issues are resolved! Let me know how it goes.

 

[[Mo...]]

27 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Mo...] I will give you instructions for my scale. My scale came with the draft shield doors (both sides and top) already installed. I only had to insert the metal pan ring and the metal pan and attach the power adaptor. If yours is slightly different, let me know the differences so I can give you further directions. I have also included instructions for calibration.

1. Place the scale on a level, sturdy surface, away from sunlight, away from air drafts, away from sources of heat or air conditioning, and in an area free of vibration (out of foot traffic and away from vibrating appliances like a washing machine, dryer or dishwasher).

2. Make sure the scale is level. You can use a carpenter’s level (if you have one). You may just need to “eyeball” it. If the “legs” on the balance are adjustable, you can use those to level it, if it appears unlevelled.

3. Insert the power adaptor at the back if the scale.

4. Fit the metal pan ring around the central “hole” in the interior middle the scale.

5. Place the shaft of the metal pan into the hole. Make sure is securely in place. Your weighing surface is now prepared.

6. Plug in the scale. Press the power button. Allow the scale to “warm up” for 30-60 minutes.

7. To calibrate: When the scale shows +/- "0.000 g”, press the “Cal” button. It should say something like “ Please Wait”. When “100” appears, press “Cal” again. “100” should blink. Place the calibration weight (that came with the scale), on the pan. Close all the draft shield doors . After a few seconds, “100.000 g” will appear. Remove the calibration weight. Your scale is now calibrated and you are ready to begin. You should calibrate it before each use in case the humidity or temperature has changed.

8. Always keep the draft shield doors closed between weighings and when not in use. This will keep dust off the pan.

9. Do not weigh directly on the pan surface. If you do, pill fragments may remain on the surface of the pan. Use a weigh pan (weigh dish) for your weighings of your pill. You can always remove the pan ring and pan to gently dust them if pill fragments or dust accumulates. Do not wash with water or cleaning fluids.

10. Lastly, do not keep weight on the pan when not in use. This may alter the weighing accuracy.

11. Side note: You will probably not need any of the other function keys except the “Tare” key if you usually use the tare function.

Hope this helps and that your water issues are resolved! Let me know how it goes.

The kitchen is still being worked on, but I am so ready to start reductions. 

Yes, my scale has draft shield doors. I will try follow your instructions and see how it goes. Thank you!

[[Mo...]]

57 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Mo...] I will give you instructions for my scale. My scale came with the draft shield doors (both sides and top) already installed. I only had to insert the metal pan ring and the metal pan and attach the power adaptor. If yours is slightly different, let me know the differences so I can give you further directions. I have also included instructions for calibration.

1. Place the scale on a level, sturdy surface, away from sunlight, away from air drafts, away from sources of heat or air conditioning, and in an area free of vibration (out of foot traffic and away from vibrating appliances like a washing machine, dryer or dishwasher).

2. Make sure the scale is level. You can use a carpenter’s level (if you have one). You may just need to “eyeball” it. If the “legs” on the balance are adjustable, you can use those to level it, if it appears unlevelled.

3. Insert the power adaptor at the back if the scale.

4. Fit the metal pan ring around the central “hole” in the interior middle the scale.

5. Place the shaft of the metal pan into the hole. Make sure is securely in place. Your weighing surface is now prepared.

6. Plug in the scale. Press the power button. Allow the scale to “warm up” for 30-60 minutes.

7. To calibrate: When the scale shows +/- "0.000 g”, press the “Cal” button. It should say something like “ Please Wait”. When “100” appears, press “Cal” again. “100” should blink. Place the calibration weight (that came with the scale), on the pan. Close all the draft shield doors . After a few seconds, “100.000 g” will appear. Remove the calibration weight. Your scale is now calibrated and you are ready to begin. You should calibrate it before each use in case the humidity or temperature has changed.

8. Always keep the draft shield doors closed between weighings and when not in use. This will keep dust off the pan.

9. Do not weigh directly on the pan surface. If you do, pill fragments may remain on the surface of the pan. Use a weigh pan (weigh dish) for your weighings of your pill. You can always remove the pan ring and pan to gently dust them if pill fragments or dust accumulates. Do not wash with water or cleaning fluids.

10. Lastly, do not keep weight on the pan when not in use. This may alter the weighing accuracy.

11. Side note: You will probably not need any of the other function keys except the “Tare” key if you usually use the tare function.

Hope this helps and that your water issues are resolved! Let me know how it goes.

Guess I already need help.  It came with 4 pieces already in it. First, on the very bottom, is a black, rubbery substance a little bigger than a quarter.  I figured it might be there for packing and to protect the scale, so should I take that out or is it supposed to stay in? Then on top of that, is a pan, and in the pan is something I can't really describe. All I can say is, it has 4 half circles on the outer edge and a bolt shaped piece that is attached in the middle. The last thing I believe is what you called the 'metal pan ring. Kind of at a loss...

[[Mo...]]

23 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Guess I already need help.  It came with 4 pieces already in it. First, on the very bottom, is a black, rubbery substance a little bigger than a quarter.  I figured it might be there for packing and to protect the scale, so should I take that out or is it supposed to stay in? Then on top of that, is a pan, and in the pan is something I can't really describe. All I can say is, it has 4 half circles on the outer edge and a bolt shaped piece that is attached in the middle. The last thing I believe is what you called the 'metal pan ring. Kind of at a loss...

I understand putting the metal ring around the hole, but don't understand about the shaft. Is that the piece that looks like a bolt?

[[El...]]

I know this is not your scale...but herecis a link for assembly of a similar scale.  Does this help?

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Yes! Thank you!! 

[[Mo...]]

Hi Ellie, I finally got the new scale set up.  I got a carpenter's level to make sure the table is level. I'm still trying to figure it out since sometimes it doesn't always go all the way to all zeros even after an hour. The first time I weighed 10 pills, it read 0.5206g. The next day the weight was 0.5153g. Last night it was 0.5186. I'm guessing that is because some weigh a little differently than others. The only way I seem to be able to get the #s to 0, is to hit the tare button. The #s still jump around a little, but only between 1 and 5.  I am tying to keep it in an ambient temperature setting and no appliances running, etc. It is very sensitive even with smallest of movements. So does it sound like it is working properly?

 

 

[[El...]]

@[Mo...] It does sound like you are doing things correctly and the scale is working properly. Just make sure you calibrate your scale before each use.  It will probably never sit rock solid at 0.000 grams because you are at the lowest end of your weighing capacity.  For better accuracy, after you calibrate, add your two 20 mg calibration weights (from your Gem20 scale...did you have that scale before?) plus your weigh pan, then press tare.  It might flicker +/- 0.0002 grams, but should be pretty steady.

To account for the variation in weight of the 10 pills, I usually do 5 weighings of seperate sets of 10 pills (like you did for three sets), then I take the average of those.  For example, your 3 sets give a total of 1.5545 grams.  The average of those is 0.5148 grams.  Dividing by 10 (for 10 pills) will give an average pill weight of 0.05148 grams.   Going forth, you should always use 0.05148 grams in any calculations.  This number will only change when you get a new prescription.  Then you will need to go through the process of weighing 10 pills again, etc.

Does that help?  Have you started making reductions?

[[Mo...]]

2 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Mo...] It does sound like you are doing things correctly and the scale is working properly. Just make sure you calibrate your scale before each use.  It will probably never sit rock solid at 0.000 grams because you are at the lowest end of your weighing capacity.  For better accuracy, after you calibrate, add your two 20 mg calibration weights (from your Gem20 scale...did you have that scale before?) plus your weigh pan, then press tare.  It might flicker +/- 0.0002 grams, but should be pretty steady.

To account for the variation in weight of the 10 pills, I usually do 5 weighings of seperate sets of 10 pills (like you did for three sets), then I take the average of those.  For example, your 3 sets give a total of 1.5545 grams.  The average of those is 0.5148 grams.  Dividing by 10 (for 10 pills) will give an average pill weight of 0.05148 grams.   Going forth, you should always use 0.05148 grams in any calculations.  This number will only change when you get a new prescription.  Then you will need to go through the process of weighing 10 pills again, etc.

Does that help?  Have you started making reductions?

Yes, I'll try that.

Last night I still used my Gemini scale. I have been doing the 0.102 until last night and went to 0.101. I looked at one of your previous posts and you had suggested making small reductions for 2 or 3 days and holding for a few days.  On the new scale there will be an extra #. I'm so happy to start again. Do you suggest the same plan? I understand I need to get used to my own 'symptom-based' plan, but would be greatful to hear any other information.

[[Mo...]]

On 03/06/2024 at 17:31, [[E...] said:

OK. I am still a little confused. If 10 pills weigh 0.515 grams, 1 pill should be in the vicinity of 0.0515 grams (rounded to 0.052 grams) and 2 pills on the vicinity of 0.103 grams. But you weighed 2 pills and got 0.100 grams and 1 pill weighing 0.050 grams. But since the average was 0.515, we need to go with that weight. I know it seems counterintuitive, but go with it! So every time you put 2 pills on the scale assume they weigh 0.103 grams and proceed from there. If you want to make a 0.001 grams reduction for your 1st cut, you should file 1 pill so that total weight of the 2 pills is 0.102 grams (0.103 - 0.001 = 0.102 grams). If your 2 pills initially weigh less than 0.103 grams, do not file a pill down. Just take the 2 pills as is. If the 2 pills weigh more than 0.103 grams, file down to 0.102 grams (regardless of the starting weight).

So tomorrow take 0.102 grams in the pm. Since you are not feeling well, I would stay at 0.102 grams for a few days. Here is a way you might think of it as you proceed:

1st reduction – take 0.102 grams = 0.97% reduction

2nd reduction – take 0.101 grams = 0.98% reduction (or an overall reduction of 1.94%)

3rd reduction – take 0.100 grams = 0.99% reduction (overall 2.91%)

4th reduction - take 0.099 grams = 1.00% reduction (overall 3.88%)

5th reduction – take 0.098 grams = 1.01% reduction (overall 4.85%)

6th reduction – take 0.097 grams = 1.02% reduction (overall 5.83%)

Etc.

Since these are pretty hefty reductions, if it were me, I would probably only, at most, make 2 or 3 reductions in a row (after you hold a couple of days after the first reduction). Then after 2 or 3 more reductions, hold for 2-4 days again and assess how you are feeling. You can always proceed to another reduction or hold longer if you need to. You really don’t want your overall reduction to be greater than 5%-10% every 2-4 weeks. Just let your symptoms guide you. There is no rush. If you aim is to experience as little or few symptoms to be as possible, start slowly. You can always go faster. But, again, resist the urge to go faster at first (and it is a strong urge, I know)! I still fight with that urge every single day…but I always regret it if I go faster.

Anyway, I got my scale from eBay. The link is below. It is pricier than you might want to pay…about $280. There has been a lot of discussion lately on this forum about using such a scale. Many say it is not necessary and the margin of error is not too large with a jeweler’s scale. But I am very, very sensitive to reductions. The specs on this scale are +/-0.0002 grams accuracy and +/-0.0001 grams repeatability. I am very glad that a jeweler’s scale works for most everyone. But I decided that since I was going to be tapering for 1-1 ½ years, it was worth the extra money to me. I say all this because I do not want to be accused of “plugging “ a scale. We each have to find what works best for each of us. And this, fortunately, seems to work for me. If you decide to purchase it, the instructions are, unfortunately, in chinese! Just message me, And I would be glad to assist you set it up if you need.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/135072991408?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20230823115209%26meid%3Daa02dfdf4fe54e218ce9dd97a157fee5%26pid%3D101800%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D135072991408%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4375194%26algv%3DRecentlyViewedItemsV2SignedOut%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p4375194.c101800.m5481&_trkparms=parentrq%3Ae0568ada18f0a8cd794cfbb9fffcf2ca|pageci%3A4825e519-21fd-11ef-9058-82456d45eaa4|iid%3A1|vlpname%3Avlp_homepage

Keep me updated and let me know how you are doing. I look forward to hearing from you often. I’ll be thinking of you!

This is the post I am referring to.

[[El...]]

@[Mo...] You seem to be making good progress!  From what I understand, you just dropped to 0.101 grams.  Correct?  If so, and you wish to stay at that dose for a few days, with your new scale, you can now weigh exactly 0.1010 grams (using the extra decimal place).  Then, for your next reduction, you are not limited to 0.001 reductions each time as you were with your previous scale. You could proceed to 0.1000 grams (another 1% reduction as you have been doing).  Or if the 1% reduction seems too steep, you could do a 0.50% reduction to 0.1005 grams.  Or if you feel you can make a reduction of 1.5%, you would try 0.0995 grams.  A 1.25% cut is 0.0997 mg.  The most important thing to do is listen to your symptoms and only make a cut when you feel able and only of a size you feel you can comfortably handle.

I hope that is what you are asking.  If not, let me know.  And, congratulations for the great progress you have made!

[[Mo...]]

7 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Mo...] You seem to be making good progress!  From what I understand, you just dropped to 0.101 grams.  Correct?  If so, and you wish to stay at that dose for a few days, with your new scale, you can now weigh exactly 0.1010 grams (using the extra decimal place).  Then, for your next reduction, you are not limited to 0.001 reductions each time as you were with your previous scale. You could proceed to 0.1000 grams (another 1% reduction as you have been doing).  Or if the 1% reduction seems too steep, you could do a 0.50% reduction to 0.1005 grams.  Or if you feel you can make a reduction of 1.5%, you would try 0.0995 grams.  A 1.25% cut is 0.0997 mg.  The most important thing to do is listen to your symptoms and only make a cut when you feel able and only of a size you feel you can comfortably handle.

I hope that is what you are asking.  If not, let me know.  And, congratulations for the great progress you have made!

Actually, because I've been at 0.102 for so long, I dropped to 0.101 the night before last and last night 0.100. I guess my cns will tell me if that is too much, but I do plan on holding for a few days to see how it goes. As you mentioned before, it's very tempting to go too fast, but from my Klonopin days, I do know how going too fast can set you back a bit.

Thank you so much for your help. I'll let you know how it goes and I'm sure I'll be asking more questions soon!

I do hope your taper is going smoothly.

[[Mo...]]

I have set up my new scale, but haven't actually used it for my daily weighings. I still used the gemini. Too much going on with the kitchen repairs, the family, holidays, etc. Today I am trying to follow your instructions on weighing the 5 sets of 10 pills on the new scale. Here is what I came up with: 0.5217, 0.5208, 0.5158, 0.5127 and 0.5215. So I add those 5 #s which is 2.5925. So I divide that # by 10 to get an average weight? If so, that would be 0.25925. I'm thinking that might not br correct. Please help me on this again. Thank you

[[El...]]

@[Mo...] Hope you are well today.  It must be stressful/annoying with your kitchen repairs going on all around you!

Since you did 5 seperate weighings of 10 pills each, you now need to divide you sum (2.5925) by 5.  That will give you 0.5185 grams.  That is the average weight of 10 pills. So the average weight of one pill is 0.05185 grams.  You should use that weight (0.05185 grams) for any future calculations. 

Hope that helps.

[[Mo...]]

1 minute ago, [[E...] said:

@[Mo...] Hope you are well today.  It must be stressful/annoying with your kitchen repairs going on all around you!

Since you did 5 seperate weighings of 10 pills each, you now need to divide you sum (2.5925) by 5.  That will give you 0.5185 grams.  That is the average weight of 10 pills. So the average weight of one pill is 0.05185 grams.  You should use that weight (0.05185 grams) for any future calculations. 

Hope that helps.

Yes, thank you

[[Mo...]]

Just now, [[M...] said:

Yes, thank you

This is day 4 after taking 0.100 the last 3 nights and I'm feeling pretty well.

[[El...]]

That is absolutely wonderful!  Great, great news!

[[Mo...]]

8 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

That is absolutely wonderful!  Great, great 

Thank you, I'm so happy to be getting a consistent schedule.

I'll be holding for a few more days to see how I feel. Now, I just weighed 2 pills weighing 0.1056g. So that means I'll be shaving until the scale shows 0.1000. Correct? 

[[El...]]

That is absolutely correct!  Hope tomorrow brings another good day!