What is tolerance wd in taper

[[De...]]

Hi,

I dont really understand tolerance wd. I always thought it was you were going  along taking your medicine ,before taper, then youstart getting wd sx. But, I hear ppl say they get it when they are tapering.  I always thought we were always in tolerance once it happens the first time. In my taper i alwsys have sx. I am never sx free. Would that mean im in tolerance. I just dont know how you would know when you are in it in a taper.  To fast taper? To slow taper? Any thoughts?

[[de...]]

I'm no expert Dehytq, but understand it to mean the further we taper, the greater the level of tolerance.  Maybe that's why people have trouble at the bottom end?  Nothing left in the tank.  'Intolerable', say our receptors.  But tolerate we do.  We override what our receptors cry for, and why so hard. 

 

And then when taper over starts the journey out, and 'true' healing begins. 

 

I have no language in neuroscience Dehytq, hope I don't sound like an idiot. 

 

Dee

 

[[De...]]

Ahhhh, ok. That makes sense. I know my head is pounding trying to figure this crap out. My brain is unplugged. You make sense.  You are not an idiot. Somehow we stumble through this. Neurosvientist..haha. You are so funny dee. Dont worry about the cleaning.  It is to dam confusing right now. Hope im making sense. This is a nightmar. Love Suzanne 

[[bu...]]

OK, here's another thread where folks use the terms tolerance, and tolerance withdrawal, interchangeably.  No wonder readers get confused.

 

Tolerance is a completely normal, healthy physical reaction the continued presence of some external stimuli. In thee case of benzos, and many other drugs and medicines, it simple means the effect of the drug declines.  It no longer has the same therapeutic effect.  Its a major reason that benzos are NOT appropriate for long term therapy...eventually they just don't work anymore.  Tanning is a non-drug example of tolerance.  Your skin darkens to better protect yoou from the long term effects of sun exposure.  Your eyes dilating in the dark is tolerance,  it increases you sensitivity to light to help you see.  Tolerance is normal and protective.  Tolerance does NOT cause any sxs,  although the sxs of your original condition may return.

 

"drug tolerance a decreasing response to repeated constant doses of a drug or the need for increasing doses to maintain a constant response"

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tolerance

 

Tolerance withdrawal, ("relative withdrawal") according the BB, is the emergence of WD sxs while taking a steady level dose of your benzo,  FWIW, tolerance withdrawal seems to be a unique condition, only experienced here on BB.  I have never found any references to tolerance withdrawal in any reliable references.

[[De...]]

Woah, that explains alot.  So, is.it kindling that sets us in to tolerane wd? Can it happen from weaning  to fast  or taking as needed?  Or does ot happen from being ctd sne reinststing. I wss fine for 17 years. It wasnt working, my original anxiety was back!! Then somewere along the time I am here in massive wd. So all of us here are now in tol wd. I cant happen again if we hold to long. I am sorry, I asked you do.many questions. I am trying to get this bevuz i need to know what this means. I want.to.know that im.tspering at the right pace. Im in a bad place now. Trembling. I guesd i will hold. Thanks builder....you are the best. I appreciate you helping.me with all my questions I ask. 

[[De...]]

Sorry i used the words wrong. I just didnt know what it meant. 

[[De...]]

Oops i said tolerance wd. I mean how is it that we would get to the point that we are having bad withdrawal symptoms.

[[bu...]]

Sorry i used the words wrong. I just didnt know what it meant. 

 

No apology needed .  As I said, folks here on BB continously  use the 2 terms interchangeably.  And that real problem is one term, tolerance, is a natural, protective physical process and is nothing to be concerned about.

 

And tolerance withdrawal (if there is such a thing) would be something to be more concerned about.

 

BTW, your original post specifies "tolerance withdrawal", but the first response references "tolerance".  These 2 terms are repeatedly used interchangeably here on BB, but have 2 very different definitions.

 

 

[[bu...]]

Woah, that explains alot.  So, is.it kindling that sets us in to tolerane wd? Can it happen from weaning  to fast  or taking as needed? 

 

1) There is very little, if any, credible evidence that kindling actually occurs, at least with reference to benzo.

 

2)  When you take a benzo over a period of time, your body will become dependent on it to feel "normal".  When you lower (or discontinue) that dose, you will very probably have some discomfort, but if you taper slowly, your body will adjust to the declining dose.  The more rapidly you try to taper, the more likely you are to experience unpleasant sxs.

[[De...]]

Ok...so just not going to think.about kindling and tolerance wd anymore. I am just going to go slow and tweak as i go along.  Trying to simplify. If i have bad sx i will hold and if not I keep.goimg. That's that! Ty builder 

 

[[co...]]

Builder, how would you define this--the benzo no longer has the effect that it once did with the same dose and anxiety symptoms re-emerge--including anxiety attacks? 

 

That is what happened to me after 2 years of 1 mg of Klonopin a day.

[[De...]]

From what i am getting from.builder is:

You are in tolerance. Go back and read his definition of tolerance. When you are in tolerance, your original sx that you were precribed the drug for reemerge. Such as anxiety and panic attacks for you, and me as well. Ugh

[[bu...]]

Ok...so just not going to think.about kindling and tolerance wd anymore. I am just going to go slow and tweak as i go along.  Trying to simplify. If i have bad sx i will hold and if not I keep.goimg. That's that! Ty builder 

 

You got it!!

 

:thumbsup:

[[de...]]

Thanks Builder. 

 

Tolerance/tolerance withdrawal.  Makes sense. 

 

You say that with slow, gradual taper, few sxs would be experienced.  Why then do people report sxs (greater, more profound than original) after tapering to 'fumes'? 

 

Am I simply a freaked out mess suffering psychological damage (in all its forms) result trauma this whole horrible thing?  I've sometimes thought so, but people's reported experience tells me otherwise.

 

Dee

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[De...]]

That is what makes no sense to me either. Some ppl who taper super slow have horrible sx. Should we be holding so long. Would that worsen sx ? No dee, you are fine. You are not damaged. You are going to heal. Ive heard  many ppl having sx or waves at 7 mos. Seems to be the norm. Awesome 

[[Th...]]

That’s my concern as well. I reached tolerance and my original anxiety symptoms became 100 times worse.

[[de...]]

Good on you Dehytq.  Thanks.

 

This thing is so complex, and having a brain like putty does not help one little bit.  Doesn't matter in the end, so long as we stay the course and be kind to ourselves. 

 

Seems it takes a while for upregulation to occur, but I can definitely feel it occurring. 

 

Man, what a trip.

 

Dee

[[bu...]]

1)  Just as your system gradually adjusted to the cointinued presence ov the benzo, it will also gradually adjust to the removal of that substance.  A gradual taper will allow your body to recover at a rate similar to  the reduction.  That's the reason a gradual (DLMT) taper will probably produce fewer sxs.

 

2)  And here's the part that always pisses everybody off.  Just because you experience symptoms does NOT automatically mean they are the result of withdrawal.  Almost everyone here started on benzos because the had some emotional/psychological/nervous/panic, etc condition Disorder tends to offend some folks, so I  used condition.  And yes, I know, your doc gave it to for pain.   ( I get that a lot!)

 

And of course, many folks here have history of poly drugging.  Just read their siggy lines.

 

Now we know that benzos only address sxs, and do NOT cure anything, and we know that a history of poly drugging brings its own set of problems, so why are so quick to assume that all our problems result from benzo withdrawal.

 

And I will promise you this, if you do a slow. gradual taper off of your benzo, you will dramatically increase the liklihood of a successful withdrawal

[[De...]]

Omg Dee,

 

It is a trip! I still sm in disbelief that this is actually happening. My brain is putty too. I dont even feel like I lmow who I am anymore. Does this drug take your identity.too. man. I guess I will just go on being the person i am.know and hope I am acting normal. That sounds insane. I think it breaks you down sp.much mentslly ee need to build ourselves back.up again. I hope thst makes drnse. That is really good you are seeing progress. You are healing snd getting better. We will stay the course till its done! 

[[De...]]

Thanks builder!

If you are polydrugged because of bwd sx. Many drs dont recognize wd snd you end up polydrugged. Can you still heal. I was given benzo for anxiety and panic attacks. Im screwed. Pretty sure I never had a health issue. I am a rec alcoholic. Ugh

[[bu...]]

Thanks builder!

If you are polydrugged because of bwd sx. Many drs dont recognize wd snd you end up polydrugged. Can you still heal. I was given benzo for anxiety and panic attacks. Im screwed. Pretty sure I never had a health issue. I am a rec alcoholic. Ugh

 

Well, you will heal ("recover") from your benzo dependency. 

 

Once again, it's a near certainty that many still suffer from whatever condition brought them to benzos to begin with.

 

And I have no real knowledge of the long-term effects of other psych drugs, but it also seems very probable that if you have taken other psych drugs, there could be some lingering effects  from them also.

 

And just FYI, 31 years last June!

[[Th...]]

Builder, in your opinion is it better to updose on a benzo to stabilize or to stay at a lower dose and add another med to help stabilize?

[[bu...]]

Unless there are some unusual factors present, I never recommend any adjunct med to relieve WD sxs.

 

Note, that by adjunct meds, I mean psych meds.  If you have headaches, take some aspirin/tylenol.  If you have sleep issues, take doxlamine/diphenhydramine.  If you have tremors or tachycardia, take some propranolol.  These are common remedies that people take all the time and can relieve some of the discomfort.  But they do NOT really effect withdrawal

[[Th...]]

Would Taking Remeron affect withdrawal?

[[bu...]]

Would Taking Remeron affect withdrawal?

 

Remeron is a psych med.  And IMO (and based on personal experience) it's  wonderful psych med.

 

But my position is still the same.  I would NOT add a psych med to buffer withdrawal.  IMO, the goal of a taper/withdrawal protocol is the allow your biosystem to return to equilibrium.  Introducing additional psych meds simply interferes with that. 

 

Non-psych meds, aspirin, doxylamine, propranolol, etc, ease some of the discomfort, but do not interfere with the body's tendency toward homeostasis/equilibrium.