Seriously, is there NO expert doctor anywhere who might help?

[[Ba...]]

Wondering is there no doctor, at all, in the world (??)  who is an expert on benzos and or benzos and antidepressant interactions?  I understand we are all tapering having, mostly, had no help or understanding from drs.  But surely there is someone?  Any names at all?  Just Dr. Ashton and then... nothing?

 

I just would think at UCLA or some University or well known clinic some dr. might have knowledge and be worked with?

 

thanks.

[[Je...]]

Dr. Peter Breggin, I believe.

[Guest [Le...]]

Some members have had luck with Dr Peter Madill in Sebastopol.

[[Ba...]]

I guess both have done research into it?

 

I believe Dr. Breggin is totally anti psych drugs? You know I do think most are awful.  However, a friend's psychotic relative can work and live ok on meds, so, no I'm not totally against them.

 

I think a med can be bad for a person, good for a person or do nothing... all drugs, not just psych ones.  Psych ones particularly bad as affecting the brain affects all of the body, not just one part.

 

I will have to see what I can find on the Sebastopol dr... thanks!

[[id...]]

I only know of Kelly Brogan MD - Holistic Psychiatrist. She's anti-meds too, though. Not sure to what extent. I am reading her book now, she seems pretty knowledgeable.

[[Fl...]]

There are several, but what do you consider "help"? They might be able to help with tapering and provide some emotional support but time is the only cure for dependency on psych drugs.

[[Ho...]]

Dr. Wright Vancouver Canada

[[Ba...]]

Hmm,  didn't Kelly Brogan say you could take gabapentin to get off benzos?  YEt people say not to do this?

 

Seems everyone has their own take on this stuff... wonder who really knows their stuff.

 

I"m amazed that in the UK apparently many drs. don't know of, or go by, Heather Ashton!  Why would that be? 

[[Be...]]

She's expensive too. Over 4K for a consultation.

 

Becky 

[[co...]]

I'm assuming these are doctors that can help with tapering and not with post-withdrawal / protracted withdrawal. Is that a fair assumption?

[Guest [ch...]]

I doubt any doctor can give you a detailed explanation of what went wrong in your brain when you added Remeron to your benzos. They can't even explain how a normal healthy brain works.

 

In any case, what matters is getting well. The only proven way to get there from where you are is to slowly taper off your benzos and give your brain time to heal. The people who are most expert in this are those that have successfully gone through it. People speak of doctors "helping with tapering", but doctors don't actually do that. They write the prescriptions and it is up to you to develop the detailed schedule and do your liquid titration or cutting to implement it (possibly with help from benzo buddies).

 

Best wishes (and we're here to help you),

 

CP

 

[[Fl...]]

I'm assuming these are doctors that can help with tapering and not with post-withdrawal / protracted withdrawal. Is that a fair assumption?

 

I don't have personal experience with this but based upon what others have reported you might have a hard time finding a doctor that will help specifically with setting up a proper taper but you might have better luck finding one that is sympathetic and willing to work with you on a taper plan that you provide.

[[Ba...]]

Becky...$4000 for consult?  omg....

[[Ba...]]

Thanks, CP.

 

You know I have a specific question, and maybe it is not appropriate to this forum (or maybe I should post it separately).

 

I am one of the folks who have had sleep problems all their lives.  Some is genetic (circadian rhythm disturbance going back at last 3 generations), some may be result of early trauma.  WHATEVER... the issue all my life has been sleep.

 

To work and have any kind of life took benzos (as rxed), never at high levels but, like, forever.

 

But if we are to believe in kindling and all... I wonder if getting off benzos in toto should even be my goal.  Because if off, and I cannot sleep, that is no life.  I am not talking about insomnia from withdrawal.  I am talking as a child, teen, working person.

 

No, I cannot take magnesium.  Yes have over the decades tried everything out there, supplements and rx's.

 

So wondering if staying on some low dose might actually be better than going off... assuming my symptoms at that point are mostly gone (as they were before mirtazapine). 

 

Did this make sense?  Unlike so many here, do not feel benzos injured me. No emotional blunting, no horrible affects at all.  Just meant I'd get a night of sleep so could do something the next day.

 

ADs, otoh, I never did well with... should have not even tried the mirtazapine.  sigh.

 

Thanks for considering this situation...

 

 

 

 

[Guest [ch...]]

But, your signature says the Klonopin stopped working, which is why you went on Remeron. Or am I mis-reading? Your signature also says "with occasional Ambien and Lyrica".

 

OK, so here's the problem. It is impossible to remain stable forever on any psych drug. Whatever psych drug you take, your brain eventually adapts to it. I.e., at first the Klonopin is enhancing GABA and helping you sleep. But eventually your GABA receptors adapt to it. At which point you have 2 problems: 1, the drug is no longer working, and 2, you are now dependent on it. It sounds like this took a long time for you, which is good, but it did eventually happen. So then, your choices are (a) Up the dose (or add in new drugs), to make the drug work again, or (b) Realize that the cycle of updose/become tolerant/updose/become tolerant is the path to doom, and instead taper *off* the psych drug(s).

 

If you want additional reading on the subject, check out: Robert Whitaker "Anatomy of an Epidemic", and Peter Breggin "Toxic Psychiatry". Both of them (like me) are very anti-med. Of course, on the other side you'll find plenty of pro-med psychiatrists, since that is the mainstream view. So you won't have trouble finding someone who will continually up your dose of benzos as needed allowing you to stay on them for life. Personally I think the latter is a bad choice but of course it's up to you.

 

On the question of other ways to deal with a lifelong sleep issue, I'm not an expert on that, but if I were you I'd seek out a sleep doctor who specializes in natural non-drug ways of treating it.

 

BTW, Ambien is very very bad stuff. Similar to a benzo but even worse. Check out the z-drug thread http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97331.0 for a zillion horror stories.

 

Best wishes,

 

Chessplayer

 

[[Ba...]]

Hey, Chessplayer!

 

Well you sort of misread and I sort of was not clear.  Ambien is worse?? ack.

 

But, your signature says the Klonopin stopped working, which is why you went on Remeron. Or am I mis-reading? Your signature also says "with occasional Ambien and Lyrica". <<

 

I did not go on Remeron because klon stopped working.  Yes, I was not a happy camper nor sleeping well and klon, indeed, not working.  Went on Remeron because both my parents died and am very isolated and, well, depressed.  Figured I would give it a shot.  Big mistake. Of course I did hope it would help me sleep; it just messed me up.

 

>>

OK, so here's the problem. It is impossible to remain stable forever on any psych drug. Whatever psych drug you take, your brain eventually adapts to it. I.e., at first the Klonopin is enhancing GABA and helping you sleep. But eventually your GABA receptors adapt to it. At which point you have 2 problems: 1, the drug is no longer working, and 2, you are now dependent on it. It sounds like this took a long time for you, which is good, but it did eventually happen.<<

 

OK, yes, drug stopped working.  But I didn't up it (in fact downed it).  But if it is the only drug ever helped me, and it worked for 35 years... do we know it is not going to work for me in future?

 

If I go totally off, there doesn't seem to be anything left.  I should change sig but Ambien I have not been taking; dr. did suggest lyrica or gabapentin.  I thought, ok, will take lyrica a week (rather than before having to go somewhere).  It worked for 2 days, in fact I was up early (rather than reversed cycle).  Great.  Til day 3 when it did not work at all...  so have given up on it.  Also made me so hungry I would eat anything in my path!

 

Dr. thought gabapentin fewer side effects... tried 5 days of this (about 300 mg or less).  Did help sleep some, but I started feeling very achy.  Maybe it is a coincidence.

 

But if gaba, lyrica, all ADs, melatonin, supplements, all not going to work-- am going to be very, very screwed.

 

Right now at about .06 or .07 clon and less than 4 valium.

[[Be...]]

Becky...$4000 for consult?  omg....

 

Yes it was over $4K. Needless to say I could not afford her as insurance would only pay $150 for consult. The consult would be 2 hours and extensive. There was detailed paperwork to fill out. Some of it included do you agree to go gluten, dairy free, etc. Will you agree to use (her) supplements? I can't as I'm very sensitive at this point. There were dvds that you needed to purchase/watch. There would be extensive tests included lyme, etc. She would though help you taper and provide compounded scripts for you. I wanted her to help me taper the trazodone/remeron.

 

I was already done with Ambien, but in w/d. If I was rolling in dough I might have done the consult. The compound scripts would have been a great help, but I know now how to taper meds in tiny doses. Tried liquid but could not tolerate it for some reason. Went back to dry cutting and it's working now as Ambien w/d is starting to fade (3 years).

 

Becky 

[[Ch...]]

Most of us feel pretty burned by meds, so you'll get that message here loud, clear and often.  BB's purpose, however, is to help with tapering and withdrawal, but not to advocate that people be drug-free, even psych-drug free.  There are appropriate times/uses for psych drugs and each person decides that for himself/herself.  But it's best to make those decisions with knowledge and information.

 

Benzodiazepines and z-drugs are problematic in that, for most people, they must be increased in dose from time to time to be effective.  Each time someone reaches tolerance, the benzodiazepine/z-drug (which are the most effective sleep aids) must be increased to achieve therapeutic value again, and that person must decide whether or not the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.  As the dose increases with time, there is always the underlying knowledge that at some point the patient will reach tolerance again and have to make this decision about whether or not to increase the dose, knowing that this is an escalating issue and one that has caused physical dependence/addiction.  That was the reason I decided to stop escalating...I didn't want to have a dependency on medication.

 

I am also one of those who has ongoing insomnia, but I'm retired and can deal with it much better than my kindergarten teaching days.  I also was on sleeping meds for decades with little to no problems except dose escalation a few times.  If you decide to go that way, personally, I'd go with Temazepam.  It seems to be the least problematic benzodiazepine from what I've experienced and also seen here.

 

Just my two cents.  When my insomnia gets the best of me, I turn to cannabis these days instead.  But that's not a solution for everyone, either.

[[Su...]]

Dr. Wright Vancouver Canada

Is Dr Wright a psychiatrist? or a doc who specializes in benzo w/d?

what's the first name please so I can look them up. 

[[Ba...]]

Becky...$4000 for consult?  omg....

 

Yes it was over $4K. Needless to say I could not afford her as insurance would only pay $150 for consult. The consult would be 2 hours and extensive. There was detailed paperwork to fill out. Some of it included do you agree to go gluten, dairy free, etc. Will you agree to use (her) supplements? I can't as I'm very sensitive at this point. There were dvds that you needed to purchase/watch. There would be extensive tests included lyme, etc. She would though help you taper and provide compounded scripts for you. I wanted her to help me taper the trazodone/remeron.

es

wow, Becky, you havve to agree to gluten free, no dairy?  she is fussy onsisdering her  $4K consult...

 

I was already done with Ambien, but in w/d. If I was rolling in dough I might have done the consult. The compound scripts would have been a great help, but I know now how to taper meds in tiny doses. Tried liquid but could not tolerate it for some reason. Went back to dry cutting and it's working now as Ambien w/d is starting to fade (3 years).

 

Becky 

[[Ba...]]

Interesting you say temazepam-- why???  I did talk to a sleep guy who was not concerned about my mirtazapine and withdrawal (which I said did not know if it from benzo-- and he said temazepam.  And cbt.  Why temazepam== short acting so would think hard to get off??

 

MJ is an option but tried a few strains that make me groggy but not sleep.  admittedly, I don't know much about this.  Smoking also a problem with my throat. If knew what might work could look at other delivery methods.

[[Ch...]]

Interesting you say temazepam-- why???  I did talk to a sleep guy who was not concerned about my mirtazapine and withdrawal (which I said did not know if it from benzo-- and he said temazepam.  And cbt.  Why temazepam== short acting so would think hard to get off??

 

MJ is an option but tried a few strains that make me groggy but not sleep.  admittedly, I don't know much about this.  Smoking also a problem with my throat. If knew what might work could look at other delivery methods.

 

CBN is the cannabinoid most associated with sedation, but it is somewhat elusive.  It is derived primarily from THC that has been through a degradation process and is not psychoactive.  I would post on the cannabis thread just to catch Badsocref's attention, he's the MMJ guru.  I also have a lot of knowledge, but I always defer to his as the ultimate expert.

 

Here's the end of the cannabis thread.  You can click to the beginning, but it's a long thread: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=165140.1690

[[Ch...]]

As to why Temazepam, this is only my personal opinion.  I took it for nearly 25 years with little problem except raising the dose a couple of times.  The problem arose when I was Rx'd Xanax (for a traumatic event) on top of the Temazepam.  I quit taking the Temazepam (no withdrawal, probably due to the Xanax I'd been given).  Xanax was much more obviously problematic in a short time as far as dose escalation and side effects.

[[li...]]

Low dose infrequent use of a 'relatively' harmless hypnotic like temazepam ?

 

Maybe, once you're off all benzos and are sufficiently healed. It's tricky, not without risk. You can't switch from K to temazepam.

 

Thanks, CP.

 

You know I have a specific question, and maybe it is not appropriate to this forum (or maybe I should post it separately).

 

I am one of the folks who have had sleep problems all their lives.  Some is genetic (circadian rhythm disturbance going back at last 3 generations), some may be result of early trauma.  WHATEVER... the issue all my life has been sleep.

 

To work and have any kind of life took benzos (as rxed), never at high levels but, like, forever.

 

But if we are to believe in kindling and all... I wonder if getting off benzos in toto should even be my goal.  Because if off, and I cannot sleep, that is no life.  I am not talking about insomnia from withdrawal.  I am talking as a child, teen, working person.

 

No, I cannot take magnesium.  Yes have over the decades tried everything out there, supplements and rx's.

 

So wondering if staying on some low dose might actually be better than going off... assuming my symptoms at that point are mostly gone (as they were before mirtazapine). 

 

Did this make sense?  Unlike so many here, do not feel benzos injured me. No emotional blunting, no horrible affects at all.  Just meant I'd get a night of sleep so could do something the next day.

 

ADs, otoh, I never did well with... should have not even tried the mirtazapine.  sigh.

 

Thanks for considering this situation...

[[Ch...]]

Low dose infrequent use of a 'relatively' harmless hypnotic like temazepam ?

 

Maybe, once you're off all benzos and are sufficiently healed. It's tricky, not without risk. You can't switch from K to temazepam.

 

 

Why not?