Writing Close Friend (influential doctor) about benzos (Need Help)

[[Se...]]

Hey Guys,

 

One of the many things I'm trying to do in my war against these drugs is to try to reach the doctors who are handing this poison out.  I have to believe if they knew what could (will) happen, they wouldn't be doing it.  I understand physicians are responsible for a lot of information so they can't know everything about every drug that comes along.  That said, this is a pretty important thing to know IMO.  They also, normally for good reason, must trust that what they are taught is actually true.  I don't believe it is.  I won't get into any of my cospiracy theories as to why in the letter, but the fact that doctors truly believe things like 'you can't get addicted if you take it as prescribed' and 'you can't be in withdrawal anymore because it's flushed from your system' is troubling.  The fact that my doctor had no idea (and thought he did) about what was happening to me from the very drugs he prescribed was frustrating to say the least. 

 

Anyhow, I'm trying to make an assertion in my letter and I could use some insight if anyone has it.  Warning: it's kinda dark but everything related to benzos is dark.  I'm trying to quantify the realistic death toll from benzo addiction.  I believe doctors are wising up when it comes to opiates (finally), mainly because it gets a lot of media coverage, which it gets because a lot of people die from opiates.  While klonopin can't be as life-threatening (at least not in a traditional sense) as oxycontin, based on the general ignorance regarding benzos overall, I theorize the numbers are significantly underestimsted.  Maybe its just me, but I feel lucky to have survived.  I had a tonic clonic seizure that could have killed me directly or from head trauma when I abruptly lost consciousness and fell, my blood pressure ranged from dangerously high to as low as 72/34, at which point I had a doctor freak out and call 911, and, I won't lie, the depression for me was really bad.  I didn't have a plan and don't think I ever would, but I was certainly closer than Ive ever been to suicide.  My logic is that if I had to dodge all those things to simply survive the first 3 months, it stands to reason that not everyone makes it. 

 

What do you guys think?  Asking for random numbers wouldn't do any good but let's try this:. Based on your personal experience, what would you estimate your chances of survival if you decide to come off of benzos?  Factor in the obvious variability of dose and length of addiction.  This is a terrible scientific tool, but I'm just looking to figure out a decent range to assert.  To anyone reading this in early W/D, don't freak out-a) My W/D was about as dangerous as they come (many prior attempts, large dose for a long time, rapid taper (basically CT), combined with alcohol, etc) and b) I'd still only put my estimate at 90%, most of that attributed to one avoidable event.

 

This is just one point in my paper, but it's the only one I need help with.  999/1000?  higher?  (My original thought was 99 of 100, which would still be pretty significant but I don't trust that). I have no idea which if any of my efforts will help, but this guy was like my best friend in HS, hes in charge of one the biggest hospitals in the US, and he knows I wouldnt be bsing him.

[Guest [ba...]]

fwiw - I don't think you'll be very convincing without cold hard (referenced) facts, and I doubt those numbers exist for benzo withdrawal.

 

Data does exist on the probability of an epileptic seizure causing death, and for the probability of a single, unprovoked seizure caused death.  You might be able to make an argument based on those statistics.  Data also exists for the death (suicide) rate for depression - a common side-effect of benzo withdrawal.

 

An argument might be based on one sentence in the Hippocratic Oath - "Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course."  But you'd need to prove that benzos are a poison.  Despite the personal opinions of many in this forum, benzos are not categorized as poisons.

 

Lapis2 often posts current medical studies that are at least tangentially linked to benzo use/withdrawal.  You might want to start reading those publications.  I think a convincing argument can only be made by performing and publishing a very thorough literature review, and I think the actual rate will be quite low.

 

Doctors, like everybody else, play a probability game.  If 99/100 of your patients found needed relief from a medication and 1/100 experienced distress, what would you do?  The probability of mortality due to benzo use/withdrawal is likely less than the probability of mortality due to driving a car.  That risk considered 'acceptable' in our society.  It's obviously not very 'acceptable' if you're one of the victims, but the general public sees driving as highly beneficial overall.  Sure, medications cause death, but overall, their use is viewed as highly beneficial.  You would need to change that perspective for benzos.

 

I think we have a better chance of getting the industry to better label containers of these pills so that the user knows there is a risk of dependency from continued use.  There are actually a handful of publications that indicate that long-term use of benzos is a bad idea.  That information has been out for many years, but the medical community has generally not picked up on it.  Since a similar thing occurs with opioid use, you could try to ride that band wagon (but without the deaths).

[Guest [Le...]]

I agree with what Badsocref is saying.

 

One way to get this doc's attention is to tell him that many (most?) of us find our way to BenzoBuddies because we Googled our own symptoms after our own doctors rejected benzos as the root of the problem.

 

Perhaps it's an offshoot of the Tomato Effect, in which useful therapies are rejected 'because they do not make sense in the context of the current understanding of the disease in question.'

 

In the case of benzos, there's no really useful therapy other than slow withdrawal, but the notion that stopping benzos can be brutally difficult is what is rejected.

[[al...]]

Doctors are mostly arrognant and stupid bastards, so I doubt that we can do anything.

It's not even about that that benzos don't destroy lives of everybody who take them. It's more about money. Pharma is earning billions and billions of $ on benzos.

You health is not important at all in that money story and it will never be until human race evolve. Some of doctors are also corrupted. The other ones just don't care and will laugh at you.

[[Ri...]]

Perhaps you could convince your friend to read a book call "Mad in America" by Robert Whitaker.  The facts and stats in this book are well researched and difficult to refute.

[[La...]]

This article from JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) might be useful to consider and/or use, and it's written by doctors:

 

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2019953 

[[Re...]]

Good for you for getting the word out and educating doctors! I hope they listen. If not keep educating until someone listens to you and believes you. I'm trying my best to do the same.

[[li...]]

This article from JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) might be useful to consider and/or use, and it's written by doctors:

 

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2019953

 

In the USA, benzos are controlled substances. I don't get it.

[[li...]]

'

Doctors, like everybody else, play a probability game.  If 99/100 of your patients found needed relief from a medication and 1/100 experienced distress, what would you do?  The probability of mortality due to benzo use/withdrawal is likely less than the probability of mortality due to driving a car.  That risk considered 'acceptable' in our society.  It's obviously not very 'acceptable' if you're one of the victims, but the general public sees driving as highly beneficial overall.  Sure, medications cause death, but overall, their use is viewed as highly beneficial.  You would need to change that perspective for benzos.'

 

There is death by indirect causes. Damage to your health, obfuscation of other health problems (what causes what), cognitive problems causing accidents, drug interactions etc.

[[La...]]

This article from JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) might be useful to consider and/or use, and it's written by doctors:

 

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2019953

 

In the USA, benzos are controlled substances. I don't get it.

 

I believe they're talking about controlling who prescribes them (e.g. only psychiatrists) and how many prescriptions are given. Check the last paragraph.

 

[[li...]]

That's horrible ! It's a journal for psychiatrists, of course. I think many psychiatrists put people on benzos. Horrible. If you need a benzo for sleep you need to see a psych, get a psychiatric diagnosis and other pills ? Let those guys find a real job !

 

And what about neurologists ? Are they less competent ?

[[Yo...]]

Half of every drug commercial you see on TV is spent naming a long list of side effects that "may occur", whether it's to treat hypertension or IBS or whatever. Serious and life-threatening ones too, that may only occur in 1 out of 10,000 cases. But they're required to state them.

 

So why, oh why, after so many years of warnings dripping out, do we not have informed consent for patients concerning the potential for dependence and withdrawal for benzos?

 

IBS sufferers get it in commercials for crying out loud! 

[[La...]]

I just posted the study on benzodiazepine use that appeared in that JAMA edition, plus comments and responses, and an editorial from a separate journal. Have a look here:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=188318.0 

[[Se...]]

Thanks for the insightful responses guys.  I'm obviously not the first to look into this.  While I strenously object to the assertion that getting a benzo addiction is physically as dangerous as driving (it almost killed me multiple times and I know for a fact others have stronger dependencies....are you trolling with those numbers?), I understand the difficulties of speaking scientifically about something that it largely unobservable to anyone living it.  It sucks that it was only when I dropped to the floor, turned bright red, and shook violently while foaming from the mouth that any doctors even acknowledged my withdrawal.  It was probably the easiest day of the whole withdrawal...I was unconscious instantly and pumped full of ativan by the time I came to.  It was a break from the nightmare.

 

The guy this particular letter is intended for is going to listen.  I was just in his wedding.  I just don't want to exaggerate the issue. Based on what I've read, at least my acute withdrawal was exceptionally intense.  While most people describe it as horrible, it doesn't sound normal to seriously research how to knock yourself out with blunt force trauma (just to make it stop for awhile) or to completely rethink your position on suicide (just to make it stop forever).  I know seizures aren't that common either.

 

My personal opinion is that benzos, when prescribed for long-term daily use, are a poison.  I've read figures that suggest that only x% of patients develop dependency, but I seriously doubt anyone on Earth can take Klonopin, as I was prescribed, for years and not go through withdrawal.  I keep reading about people who have no symptoms, but I honestly don't buy it.  Maybe people don't take them frequently enough to gain a dependence, but if someone claims to take it 3x a day for years, then just walk away, I'd want to meet them.  I wouldn't be surprised if companys pay people to make such claims online.  It just doesn't make sense. It's an addictive substance.  No one shoots heroin 3x a day and doesn't get addicted.  Same goes for booze, coke, meth, cigarettes, you name it.  Prescribing something to use rarely as needed is one thing.  Prescribing 3x a day is prescribing an addiction, and regardless of how bad someone's original complaints are, that won't help them.

 

Anyhow thanks again. (especially for that study) This drug destroyed my life.  I'm not just gonna chalk that up as a mistake and move on.  People who decide to smoke crack know they're taking s huge risk.  People who decide to take benzos usually don't.  I just want doctors to know what they're really prescribing people because I think they really believe the drug fact sheet they get from the only people on Earth who stand to benefit from getting people addicted.

 

Maybe if nothing else, I can save a few people from my fate.  Either someone will listen or I'll just keep yelling at the universe.  My doctor didn't turn me into a drug addict, but neither does a crack dealer selling to kids.  At least the kids are protected by the law.  I'm writing my buddy because I know he would never want to hurt anyone and I want him to understand just how badly this drug had hurt me.  I think this applies to almost all doctors...they swear to do no harm, and I know most of them try to uphold that.  The problem here is that the relevant information has either been skewed (sure maybe only 20% of all people prescribed kpin get addicted, but if 100% of people prescribed daily do, that number is useless) or unidentifiable/unquantifiable (I'm certain if I finally had too much, my suicide would be chalked up to "mental health" even though I won't shut up about Klonopin).