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Why aren't more people using caffeine for GABA receptor upregulation?


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As I understand it, post-withdrawal symptoms stem mainly from long-lasting downregulation of GABA-A receptors. According to several studies, caffeine use upregulates GABA receptors - potentially reversing some of downregulation caused by benzos on GABA receptors.

 

I understand that many people who withdrew from benzos can't handle caffeine because of a variety of reasons, but for people who can tolerate it, wouldn't consistent caffeine use be one of the more promising and simple routes for recovery?

 

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

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I have noticed that caffeine helps me a lot. I need to drink 1-2 cup of coffee every morning in order to wake up and get functioning. Otherwise I feel tired and can not get up. I do not know how it effects but it helps. Howeber I still do my tappering and do nor know where I will be when I jump.

 

I still have a fear to jump because I have experienced muscle spasms and cramps already and wondering if I get more of them and more painful other physical symptoms after jump. Well, I think I need to jump because otherwise I do not know what happens and will be long time benzo prisoner...

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interesting! can you post a link to a study or two? i have to say i love my coffee- only stopped caffeine for a few weeks entirely during w/d. wouldn't that be something if

it helped?!

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interesting! can you post a link to a study or two? i have to say i love my coffee- only stopped caffeine for a few weeks entirely during w/d. wouldn't that be something if

it helped?!

 

Of course! Here it is:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8242688\

 

"Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors ... The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased."

 

Here's a reddit comment explaining it:

 

"100 mg/kg for mice. Converting to a human dose, that's just a little over 600 mg of caffeine for someone roughly 170 lbs. While that is high, it's still a realistic amount for some (roughly 4 or 5 cups of coffee daily). So, for those that only drink a couple cups of coffee a day (or other equivalent source of caffeine) it would seem like there would still be a notable change in the receptors over time."

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Here's another interesting excerpt from the study:

 

"The density of GABAA receptors, as assessed by binding of the GABAA modulator diazepam, is increased markedly in NIH strain mice (Table 1). There also appears to be a small but significant decrease in the affinity of diazepam; the nature of this decrease requires further investigation. Such an increase suggests an up-regulation of GABAA channels as a result of a decrease in GABAergic function during chronic caffeine treatment. An up regulation of benzodiazepine sites after chronic caffeine has been previously reported for rats (Wu and Coffin, (1984; Wu and Phillis, 1986). Chronic caffeine at a low dose of 10 mg/kg/day has little effect on diazepam-elicited changes in glucose utilization in brains of rat (Nehlig et al., 1987). Chronic theophylline does decrease the convulsant activity of various agents in rats (Szot et al., 1987), but whether this is due to up-regulation of adenosine receptors or an up regulation of GABAA receptors or is unknown."

 

Methodology:

 

"White male mice of the NIH Swiss strain, weight 25–30 g, were divided into two groups. The control group was given free access to water and food, while the chronic caffeine group was given access to water containing 0.1 % caffeine for 4 days and to food. Caffeine ingestion was continued up to two to four hours before sacrifice. Based on water consumption, mice ingested ~100 mg/kg of caffeine per day. For further details and behavioral studies with such mice see Nikodijević et al. (1992)."

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Not sure about others but I can't even handle one cup of coffee, let alone the amount mentioned in the study. I envy those who can tolerate it
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Coffee helped me a great deal during withdrawal, though for awhile I halved the amount.  I had severe morning cog fog as well as moderate depression and it did wonders for that.  Coffee also has many major health benefits that many don't seem to know about, similar to those of tea.  I'm not a soda drinker though, never have been, so coffee and tea worked for me.
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Thanks for starting this thread!  Interesting that caffeine could do this as it increases anxiety so significantly.

But at this point I'll try anything that is backed by research.  I'll try to find the link as there is also significant research that coffee enemas (ahem) help detoxify the liver more than any allopathic treatment.

So there's something to this coffee as medicine

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This makes sense. I drink coffee every morning because it lifts my mood. I still have withdrawal symptoms but it certainly helps me to face them. I even think about coffee at night before bed because I look forward to it so much each morning.
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The majority of GABA receptors we have are in our gut.

 

Coffee and caffeine isn't good for the gut, and the amount in a coffee is usually just a bit too much, That's why I believe so many people have issues.

 

I quit coffee for a month and when I started feeling good again, I started drinking green tea. Green tea is the way to go imo.

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@pushthefeeling did not know that about receptors and the gut.. is this why we are so sensitive to so many foods?
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The majority of GABA receptors we have are in our gut.

 

Coffee and caffeine isn't good for the gut, and the amount in a coffee is usually just a bit too much, That's why I believe so many people have issues.

 

I quit coffee for a month and when I started feeling good again, I started drinking green tea. Green tea is the way to go imo.

 

"Such an increase suggests an up-regulation of GABAA channels as a result of a decrease in GABAergic function during chronic caffeine treatment."

 

I think the explanation as to why so many people like us have issues with caffeine and coffee is simple. While the caffeine is in our system, GABAergic function temporarily decreases significantly. Since people suffering from withdrawal and PAWS already have significantly impaired GABAergic function, this means that any further decrease in GABAergic function caused by caffeine will temporarily cause considerable anxiety and discomfort.

 

However, as the brain constantly strives for homeostasis, it eventually reacts to this "artificial" and temporary decrease in GABAergic function by going the other way and increasing the density of GABA-A receptors, so in the long run it could be theoretically beneficial for withdrawal and PAWS recovery. It all makes sense, as benzos do the exact opposite - they temporarily increase GABAergic function but decrease the density of GABA-A receptors in the long run, causing all sorts of cognitive and physical problems down the road due to GABA-A receptor downregulation.

 

A word of caution though - I'm not too familiar with the potential downsides in temporarily decreasing GABAergic function in already compromised individuals, so please be cautious.

 

From now on, I'll be taking about 200mg~600mg of pure caffeine in the form of pills on the daily which DO NOT contain L-Theanine, as L-Theanine is apparently a mildly GABAergic substance which could potentially get in the way of the receptor-increasing, anti-GABAergic effects of the caffeine. This is why coffee is probably ultimately more effective, albeit possibly more "painful", than tea, which contains L-Theanine.

 

As for me, it's been about 2-3 years since I unwisely withdrew cold turkey after using Xanax, and I'd say I'm about 95% recovered. However, I subjectively feel like my GABA system isn't quite what it used to be, and when I drink alcohol heavily for a while, I feel that some symptoms like cog fog come back briefly for a few days or so. But I'm lucky enough where I'm recovered to the point that I can easily tolerate alcohol and caffeine without much problems, and I also never drink coffee and don't have an existing tolerance to caffeine at all, so I feel like I'm in a great position to be taking some caffeine in an attempt to upregulate my GABA receptors.

 

My opinion is that caffeine should be an essential part of the road to recovery, but only if you're ready to handle it. Good luck guys!

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[d2...]

The majority of GABA receptors we have are in our gut.

 

 

 

 

"Such an increase suggests an up-regulation of GABAA channels as a result of a decrease in GABAergic function during chronic caffeine treatment."

 

I think the explanation as to why so many people like us have issues with caffeine and coffee is simple. While the caffeine is in our system, GABAergic function temporarily decreases significantly. Since people suffering from withdrawal and PAWS already have significantly impaired GABAergic function, this means that any further decrease in GABAergic function caused by caffeine will temporarily cause considerable anxiety and discomfort.

 

However, as the brain constantly strives for homeostasis, it eventually reacts to this "artificial" and temporary decrease in GABAergic function by going the other way and increasing the density of GABA-A receptors, so in the long run it could be theoretically beneficial for withdrawal and PAWS recovery. It all makes sense, as benzos do the exact opposite - they temporarily increase GABAergic function but decrease the density of GABA-A receptors in the long run, causing all sorts of cognitive and physical problems down the road due to GABA-A receptor downregulation.

 

A word of caution though - I'm not too familiar with the potential downsides in temporarily decreasing GABAergic function in already compromised individuals, so please be cautious.

 

From now on, I'll be taking about 200mg~600mg of pure caffeine in the form of pills on the daily which DO NOT contain L-Theanine, as L-Theanine is apparently a mildly GABAergic substance which could potentially get in the way of the receptor-increasing, anti-GABAergic effects of the caffeine. This is why coffee is probably ultimately more effective, albeit possibly more "painful", than tea, which contains L-Theanine.

 

As for me, it's been about 2-3 years since I unwisely withdrew cold turkey after using Xanax, and I'd say I'm about 95% recovered. However, I subjectively feel like my GABA system isn't quite what it used to be, and when I drink alcohol heavily for a while, I feel that some symptoms like cog fog come back briefly for a few days or so. But I'm lucky enough where I'm recovered to the point that I can easily tolerate alcohol and caffeine without much problems, and I also never drink coffee and don't have an existing tolerance to caffeine at all, so I feel like I'm in a great position to be taking some caffeine in an attempt to upregulate my GABA receptors.

 

My opinion is that caffeine should be an essential part of the road to recovery, but only if you're ready to handle it. Good luck guys!

 

Thanks for posting this. 

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[ab...]
Coffe makes me feel euphoric for a few minutes then i'm like almost passing out and having a seizure.  :o I underestimated how much it affected me.
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I drank coffee through WD and it was the one thing - one single thing - I had to look forward to and it really helped get me through the worst of it.

 

I'm in Stage 3 now (I think) and I find myself very sensitive to caffeine now, which hasn't happened until about 19 months out. But, I still mix a little caffeinated grounds into my decaff and enjoy it. Since I've not been able to drink my full brew, I've been much weaker and get depressed easier. Caffeine really helped get me moving, boosted my mood, gave me a brief window of hope, and allowed me to be creative.

 

I'm not telling people who can't tolerate it to drink it though! I'm sensitive to it myself right now, so I've slowed down greatly.

 

Interesting thread. Thank you.  :thumbsup:

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Bro caffeine ain't gonna upregulate GABA

 

Did you actually read the study?

 

"Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors ... The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased."

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I love my coffee, but I didn't use any caffeine for 3.5 years because I was afraid it was going to make my symptoms worse.

Over the last six months I have slowly started drinking it again. First with decaf and then ice tea and now back to drinking large coffee's everyday.

Doesn't seem to effect me in a bad way, but also doesn't seem to make things any better.

Helps me feel like I am one more step back in the human race. So I will keep drinking it.

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It could help with upregulation of GABAA and its benzodiazepine site. Especialy if you take it with Ginkgo Biloba. But if there are changes in gene expression and all those upregulated receptors mainly contain a4 subunits and benzodiazepine sites with inverse agonist action. You're not going to be healed by the caffeine. There are probably some other changes in NMDA / AMPA receptor expression and the HPA axis that caffeine cant fix.
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It could help with upregulation of GABAA and its benzodiazepine site. Especialy if you take it with Ginkgo Biloba. But if there are changes in gene expression and all those upregulated receptors mainly contain a4 subunits and benzodiazepine sites with inverse agonist action. You're not going to be healed by the caffeine. There are probably some other changes in NMDA / AMPA receptor expression and the HPA axis that caffeine cant fix.

 

That's very interesting. Do you have any sources for further reading?

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Well there are things that do help besides time and any chemical that effects GABA.  Lots of things, so I guess I'm going to keep searching for those things and doing them when they are backed by research and sound science.  :thumbsup:

 

And I'll try them all.  I know that coffee -- and I will try the caffeine of Matcha -- helps me get my butt off the couch.  And that really helps with the whole process!!

I'm in my second 36 hour fast as the first one was pretty remarkable with how it helped!  I had days of feeling almost normal, and that was amazing!

So while time is the ultimate healer there are things we can do to not simply be passively waiting for healing to happen...... just saying. ;)

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[d2...]

Well there are things that do help besides time and any chemical that effects GABA.  Lots of things, so I guess I'm going to keep searching for those things and doing them when they are backed by research and sound science.  :thumbsup:

 

And I'll try them all.  I know that coffee -- and I will try the caffeine of Matcha -- helps me get my butt off the couch.  And that really helps with the whole process!!

I'm in my second 36 hour fast as the first one was pretty remarkable with how it helped!  I had days of feeling almost normal, and that was amazing!

So while time is the ultimate healer there are things we can do to not simply be passively waiting for healing to happen...... just saying. ;)

 

I agree..... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: we are all different, and what works for one does not always work for another, and I agree also we cant passively wait around for healing to occur... The chemicals the Drs gave us...are far worse , so it is trial and error, and doing what we can, when we can to get the body to function again as we heal..

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