Problems after aborted Mirtazapine taper

[[Be...]]

Hi folks. In the nicest possible way I hoped I'd never be back here...but here I am!

I had a horrible benzo taper in 2016, I came down from 35mg Diaz  to 3mg in 9 months. I was really really ill during it - not surprisingly, at that rate. I got to 2.5mg and decided to stop tapering and updosed by half a mg, and within a fortnight I was 100% better. Absolutely symptom free. I never had any problems while on Diazepam, it was only when I tried to taper too fast I got ill. And I didn't realise just how massive an undertaking  it was until it was too late - I had awful medical advice.

 

Part of that awful medical advice was that this time last year I was put on Mirtazapine. An idiot GP who didn't understand what she was dealing with put me on it for 'anxiety' and 'depression' - it was benzo WD. I ended up on 45mg.

 

I lost my job last August over the benzo taper. It devastated me. But from when I stopped that taper

In August, I didn't have a SINGLE WD symptom. I was absolutely fine, apart from the awful price I'd had to pay in my personal life. I thought I was finished in work, and I fell into an awful depression. Not a benzo inspired one, a normal reaction to a massive loss. I thought I was finished. My job wa everything to me. My identity and my family's income. I went to a verg bad place.

 

Then at the end of 2016 some people from my work reached out to me and I told them what happened. They were horrified and told me that I was missed in work and that there would be a route back for me, when I was ready. So I set about having lots of lunches and coffees with former colleagues. They all said the same thing. And they all went back into my work and says 'that guy has been through hell' but he's totally himself again'. And I was. I was utterly well and symptom free.

 

I got a new prescribing psychiatrist who was great: he totally got the benzo thing, and said he would  prescribe me with whatever I needed, for as long as I needed. My GP was trying to RT me and I was terrified. I was done with tapering for a very very long time. It nearly killed me. As I said, I had no problem on my full dose of Diaz, and none when I stopped tapering at 3.

 

I decided in discussion with my new doc that I should try to get off the Mirtazapine 45mg before going back to work. It never did me any good and I thought, what are the chances of me getting unlucky with another, totally different drug? He gave me a schedule taper which was: 1st week 45 / 30 alternating daily. Then second week 45 one day, 30 for two days. I was fine for the first week. Then half way through week 2: BAM. Sudden wave of WD. Dizziness, head pressure, hot flushes, anxiety.

I immediately reinstated and I've continued to have those symptoms since. That reinstatement to 45 was 6 weeks ago.

 

For weeks I just hung in there, assured by that doctor I would stabilise. It was far far far too aggressive now, I know, the Mirt taper.

 

I am part of a Facebook group for Mirt WD sufferers and when I hadn't got relief after a month, they suggested the Mirt taper might have thrown me back into Diaz WD. That sounded unlikely to me, but the symptoms were similar to what I suffered in Diaz WD - they just feela little different. But broadly

speaking the same sort of thing: headaches, dizziness, depersonalisation and anxiety. An anxiety which switches on when I wake up and is almost like a pain in the pit of my stomach.

 

Two days ago, I decided to see if a one MG updose of Diaz would help. It's only the second time I have ever updosed, the first time being that .5mg I mentioned before. I haven't noticed any improvement as yet.

 

Basically, I am at my wit's end. I don't know if this is Mirt WD because of the aggressive taper, even tho it was quite short...or if somehow that Mirt taper has tipped me into Diaz WD again.

 

This is like a bad dream. I lost almost everything due to the benzo taper and just when I was about to maybe get a chance at my job back again, it all collapses. I ain't getting another chance at this. And I can't start tapering the Diaz again. I just can't. I was solid on 3mg until I messed with the Mirtazapine. I was solid on 35mg before I tapered. I can't face another Diaz taper, please don't tell me that's the only option. With all due respect if that's what you have to say, then it would be best not to post it. I'm not doing it. It would be the end of everything. Please

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper? What can I do, if snything? If I sit at 45mg will it eventually level  out again?

I BITTERLY regret that Mirt taper. I was SO good and everything was possible again. I was able to be a father again, I had another shot at work.  I don't see how that Mirt taper could throw me into Diaz WD. But I updosed to see if that helped. Maybe it will it's early days.

 

So if anyone has any advice re Mirt WD and what I can do or expect, id really appreciate it. I was so, so good until I did that Mirt taper. How could I trust a doctor again?

[[bu...]]

 

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper? 

 

How could I trust a doctor again?

 

It is almost certainly the diazepam.  Benzos cause significant dependency,  mirtazipine very little, if any.

 

And your doc did nothing wrong. Mirt is a very effective anxiolytic/anti-depressant with  much safer profile than most ADs. Many BBs have found mirt to be very helpful, and have had few, if any, problems coming off.

 

FWIW, I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

[[Be...]]

But why would a Mirt taper cause an issue with the Diaz? It can't be just coincidence.

And what can I do?

I can't face a Diaz taper. I just need to get back to where I was before the Mirt taper. I am really desperate. I was so good until then.

How long should a Diaz updose take to have an effect?

I only ever went into Diaz WD before when I tapered the Diaz.

 

[[Be...]]

'It is almost certainly the diazepam.  Benzos cause significant dependency,  mirtazipine very little, if any.'

 

FWIW: I'm a member of two different Mirt support groups which have people going through very real WD, and they're tapering 10% per month. Some even slower. For some of them, Their symptoms are very similar to benzo symptoms.

 

 

 

 

[[le...]]

Unfortunately, mirtazapine is the source of a great deal of suffering. It should be illegal.

 

I have tapered benzos and mirt. Benzo wd not so bad. Mirt wd HORRENDOUS! Mirt has severe wd symptoms that makes it  impossible to function. I has to stop working. I was incapacitated for more than two years trying to withdraw from mirt. Headache - searing pain as if glass shards are penetrating my head, nausea, vomiting, eye pain that wakes me up in the night. It will absolutely dry everything out in your body because it is a very strong antihistamine. So many wd symptoms. Too long to list here.

 

It's a bad mistake to trade the devil you know for the mirt devil you don't know.

[[Be...]]

Ok. So what's most likely to be going on with me, as I was utterly fine until my very short but far too aggressive Mirt taper? I have to get back to work? My marriage, sanity and future happiness depend on it. Again, I was *fine* until the taper. Have reinstated. And updosed by a MG on the Fiaz Just to cover that base. Thanks.

[[...]]

 

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper? 

 

How could I trust a doctor again?

 

It is almost certainly the diazepam.  Benzos cause significant dependency,  mirtazipine very little, if any.

 

And your doc did nothing wrong. Mirt is a very effective anxiolytic/anti-depressant with  much safer profile than most ADs. Many BBs have found mirt to be very helpful, and have had few, if any, problems coming off.

 

FWIW, I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

 

:

 

Telling someone it's "almost certainly" the diazepam?!!  Even though he claims he was 100% symptom free for seven months, then did a half-a**ed (rapid and alternating daily?!  ) taper from Mirt and was *immediately* hit with symptoms.  Say what?!  Just because you're a fan of Mirtaz, having had an easy ride and taper with it, certainly does not mean your experience automatically applies to the next person. 

 

Why do that, Builder?  Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out it was the Mirt that caused things to go awry?  You want him to start tinkering around with the Diazepam again?  As well as the Mirt?  How on Earth does that sound logical to anyone?

 

Belfast, there's a Mirtazapine support group right here:  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=80102.0  And if I were in your shoes, I'd hop along to survivingantidepressants as well, perhaps you'll get some more reasonable direction there.  I'm sorry this happened to you. 

 

[[Be...]]

Thank you!

 

 

[[...]]

It is believed from various studies that 62% of people who stop an SSRI within a month suffer some withdrawal symptoms.

Some like me suffer acute withdrawal sxs that can last for years.

 

That leaves 38% who suffer no withdrawal sxs.

 

It is therefore recommended that all psyche meds are withdrawn slowly.

 

[[Be...]]

Yeah, as I said a number of times in my post, I know now it was far too fast. I'm looking for advice on what comes next and how to get myself back to feeling well again...im sure others have been in the same boat, with the same meds.

[[Be...]]

Anyone with any helpful thoughts , please use the Mirt thread link kindly posted above. Thanks!

 

 

EDIT: here http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=80102.0

[[bu...]]

It is believed from various studies that 62% of people who stop an SSRI within a month suffer some withdrawal symptoms.

Some like me suffer acute withdrawal sxs that can last for years.

 

That leaves 38% who suffer no withdrawal sxs.

 

 

 

Wow,  such precise numbers...I guess you can post a link or provide further documentation?

[[Be...]]

With all due respect, Builder, I'm trying to get help here. You've expressed an opinion on Mirtazapine based on your experience and anecdotal evidence which is contrary to that of many people I've spoken to. That's your right. While you challenge Jp49, I notice you have conveniently ignored ABCD's post, tho.

This one:

 

'Telling someone it's "almost certainly" the diazepam?!!  Even though he claims he was 100% symptom free for seven months, then did a half-a**ed (rapid and alternating daily?!  ) taper from Mirt and was *immediately* hit with symptoms.  Say what?!  Just because you're a fan of Mirtaz, having had an easy ride and taper with it, certainly does not mean your experience automatically applies to the next person. 

 

Why do that, Builder?  Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out it was the Mirt that caused things to go awry?  You want him to start tinkering around with the Diazepam again?  As well as the Mirt?  How on Earth does that sound logical to anyone?

 

Belfast, there's a Mirtazapine support group right here:  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=80102.0  And if I were in your shoes, I'd hop along to survivingantidepressants as well, perhaps you'll get some more reasonable direction there.  I'm sorry this happened to you. '

 

 

If you don't mind, as I'm the person looking for help here and you're dismissing the basis on which I'm asking for that help, I'd rather this didn't get sidetracked into a debate about whose stats stack up and whose don't. I know what triggered my recent bout of illness. It was a Mirtazapine taper. You don't buy into that. But that IS what happened.

Again, I'd love to hear from anyone who has had an experience like mine and how they dealt with it. I'd be really grateful for any advice. Thank you.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

If you don't mind, as I'm the person looking for help here and you're dismissing the basis on which I'm asking for that help, I'd rather this didn't get sidetracked into a debate about whose stats stack up and whose don't. I know what triggered my recent bout of illness. It was a Mirtazapine taper. You don't buy into that. But that IS what happened.

Again, I'd love to hear from anyone who has had an experience like mine and how they dealt with it. I'd be really grateful for any advice. Thank you.

 

Then why did you pose the question in your original post?

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper?

 

BTW, the flow of misinformation here on BB is out of control, and actually damaging.  I will ALWAYS question and ask for  documentation when I see suspect and improbable info posted, especially when it seems as suspicious as that post.  There is enough uncertainty and anxiety associated with discontinuing a psych med.  Posting erroneous info just adds to that.

 

I'm am sorry you are experiencing difficulty as an apparent result of your psych med.  I'm hopeful for your recovery.

[[Be...]]

I absolutely did not question what TRIGGERED the illness. I'm in no doubt about that. I'm trying to work out how it did, what is going on and what can be done.

Let's leave it here, if you don't mind.

 

 

[Guest [wi...]]

Hi Belfast,

 

I'm so sorry you're having a rough time with the mirtazepine.  I certainly understand how you could having trouble with the mirtazepine.  I've mentioned this on this board many times that I'm certain our reactions to these drugs is genetically based and therefore hard wired.  I was one who had no trouble getting off mirtazepine and I know it  was entirely due to my genetic profile.  I think if you slow down and taper it as per the recommendations at Survivingantidepressants.org, you'll feel much better. 

 

Take good care.

[[Be...]]

Thanks. From my own research, it's clear to me that many people struggle with Mirtazapine withdrawal. I've no doubt whatsoever that WD from that drug is every bit as real, for those who suffer it, as benzo WD. One quick scroll through Surviving Antidepressants throws up a depressing number of case studies, all with very similar symptoms. I'm just trying to unpick what is what in my own case. Appreciate your concern.

[[Se...]]

 

 

 

If you don't mind, as I'm the person looking for help here and you're dismissing the basis on which I'm asking for that help, I'd rather this didn't get sidetracked into a debate about whose stats stack up and whose don't. I know what triggered my recent bout of illness. It was a Mirtazapine taper. You don't buy into that. But that IS what happened.

Again, I'd love to hear from anyone who has had an experience like mine and how they dealt with it. I'd be really grateful for any advice. Thank you.

 

Then why did you pose the question in your original post?

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper?

 

BTW, the flow of misinformation here on BB is out of control, and actually damaging.  I will ALWAYS question and ask for  documentation when I see suspect and improbable info posted, especially when it seems as suspicious as that post.  There is enough uncertainty and anxiety associated with discontinuing a psych med.  Posting erroneous info just adds to that.

 

I'm am sorry you are experiencing difficulty as an apparent result of your psych med.  I'm hopeful for your recovery.

 

So if you ALWAYS question and ask for documentation when you see suspect and improbable info, why don't you provide such 'documentation' for your views on remeron withdrawal. Sure. Maybe YOU and a few others slid off with relative ease, but many, many others have extreme difficulty with remeron withdrawal. How can you possibly give advice on your scant 'info'?

You do this repeatedly Builder, and get called on it often.

I think the WORST thing you can do on this forum is make recommendations on your own personal experiences without making it very, very clear that you are a body of one.....or even a few individuals. Your advice, in MY mind, is dangerous.

 

[[Be...]]

I actually want to add one more thing to this. It's been weighing on my mind. The single most damaging thing which happened to me when I realised I was in trouble with benzos was that people simply would not believe me. Family, friends and doctors. That was enormously undermining when I was absolutely terrified and felt completely isolated and without any support.

People arrive on BB on a regular basis with similar tales of being disbelieved. They find this place and it is an oasis of empathy and understanding.

 

Well, *many* of those people aren't just taking benzos. Like me, they've had their WD misdiagnosed as conventional anxiety and depression, by doctors who simply do not believe benzo WD exists.

 

Ian Singleton of the Bristol Tranquliser Project is probably the single most experienced person in the UK at dealing with benzo WD. He has helped thousands of sufferers. And he makes it quite clear that ADs, IF PRESCRIBED SOLELY TO DEAL WITH BENZO WD DO NOT WORK. And often lead people into an even worse mess, where they get appalling WD trying to get off the AD.

 

Please see the videos here 'Antidepressant problems', 'What mistakes are doctors making' and 'misdiagnosis during withdrawal'.

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/mia-manual/psychiatric-medication-withdrawal-cepuk/

 

Builder, you tell me my doctor did nothing wrong. Au contraire: my doctor did EVERYTHING wrong when she put me on another extremely powerful psychotropic medication, which simply cannot work against the symptoms of Benzo WD. WHICH WAS ALL THAT WAS WRONG WITH ME. There is no pill which works for that. Not only does it not work, it plainly causes extremely serious discontinuation syndrome for an unknown number of users. You won't find any stats from official research on that figure which are worth a damn, as those studies haven't been properly conducted. As Professor Heather Ashton explains:

 

' After a while it became apparent from patients' experiences that SSRIs, like benzodiazepines, produced a withdrawal reaction when they were stopped. This is another example of the surprising ignorance on the part of the physicians. It was already known that the older antidepressants, tricyclics and MAOIs, produced a withdrawal syndrome which had been well described in 1984. Yet the doctors appeared to be taken by surprise by SSRI withdrawal effects. As mentioned before, the benzodiazepines had been accepted as being dependence-producing, or addictive, on the basis of their withdrawal effects. Now there were clear withdrawal effects from SSRIs. In a scramble to prove that SSRIs were not addictive, psychiatrists actually changed the definition of drug dependence. Criteria for substance dependence were altered in the 1994 DSM IV by the American Psychiatric Association. In this edition, withdrawal effects alone were not enough. A patient now also had to have evidence of tolerance, dose escalation, continued use despite efforts to stop and other characteristics to qualify for dependence. And the withdrawal syndrome was replaced by the patronising euphemism "discontinuation reaction". As if a patient would think there was some subtle difference between "discontinuation and withdrawal.'

 

The same semantic fancy footwork has been applied to SNRIs and Mirtazapine / Remeron.

 

Being told that Mirtazapine WD doesn't exist, because you and some people you know have stopped taking it without major issues, is as useful and valuable as benzo WD sufferers being told that they can't possibly be in WD, because lots of people can stop taking it without major issues. It's exactly the same thing.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

 

So if you ALWAYS question and ask for documentation when you see suspect and improbable info, why don't you provide such 'documentation' for your views on remeron withdrawal. Sure. Maybe YOU and a few others slid off with relative ease, but many, many others have extreme difficulty with remeron withdrawal. How can you possibly give advice on your scant 'info'?

 

 

Well, here's the quote from my original post:

 

I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

Seems pretty clear that I have shared MY personal experience.

 

Now, if I had said something like "68% of Remeron users experience zero withdrawal sxs", then I would have posted a link to substantiate it.

 

BTW, if you scout around many of my posts, you will find I almost always include a link or documentation in my posts.

[[Se...]]

 

 

So I'm asking: could this be Diaz WD or is it as seems more likely to me just a heavy hit from the Mirt taper? 

 

How could I trust a doctor again?

 

It is almost certainly the diazepam.  Benzos cause significant dependency,  mirtazipine very little, if any.

 

And your doc did nothing wrong. Mirt is a very effective anxiolytic/anti-depressant with  much safer profile than most ADs. Many BBs have found mirt to be very helpful, and have had few, if any, problems coming off.

 

FWIW, I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

But.....you also posted THIS didn't you? You conviently edited your very own post.

I have a major problem with your conclusion that diazepam was/is undoubtedly the culprit since mirtazepine is a breeze to discontinue.

[[be...]]

It is believed from various studies that 62% of people who stop an SSRI within a month suffer some withdrawal symptoms.

Some like me suffer acute withdrawal sxs that can last for years.

 

That leaves 38% who suffer no withdrawal sxs.

 

It is therefore recommended that all psyche meds are withdrawn slowly.

 

While I do feel for everybody who is having trouble tapering their Remeron, and everybody is different, builder always asks for data because there is so much misinformation here. Past and present.

 

Like Remeron being mentioned as an SSRi. It is not. It is an NaSSA. Quite different from an SSRi. I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who is having problems, but there are a lot of newbies here who haven't yet been here long enough to see so many posts like builder and I do. I think between the two of us, we've pretty much seen it all. Like lots of misinformation being posted here. And while I had no trouble getting off Remeron at all, many people do, hence other sites (as well as BB) can be really helpful. I hope everyone manages to get off it, not feeling that poorly. Or it doesn't last that long. And I agree, most meds need to be tapered but I just bit the bullet and did a C/T off it w/o any problems. Not that I am recommending that at all.

[[Se...]]

It is believed from various studies that 62% of people who stop an SSRI within a month suffer some withdrawal symptoms.

Some like me suffer acute withdrawal sxs that can last for years.

 

That leaves 38% who suffer no withdrawal sxs.

 

It is therefore recommended that all psyche meds are withdrawn slowly.

 

 

While I do feel for everybody who is having trouble tapering their Remeron, and everybody is different, builder always asks for data because there is so much misinformation here. Past and present.

 

Like Remeron being mentioned as an SSRi. It is not. It is an NaSSA. Quite different from an SSRi. I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who is having problems, but there are a lot of newbies here who haven't yet been here long enough to see so many posts like builder and I do. I think between the two of us, we've pretty much seen it all. Like lots of misinformation being posted here. And while I had no trouble getting off Remeron at all, many people do, hence other sites (as well as BB) can be really helpful. I hope everyone manages to get off it, not feeling that poorly. Or it doesn't last that long. And I agree, most meds need to be tapered but I just bit the bullet and did a C/T off it w/o any problems. Not that I am recommending that at all.

 

I have also been here a very long time, and read many, many posts.

"I" don't really care WHAT type of AD remeron is.

The point is that Builder consistently recommends a quick taper off of it because it worked for him.

And.....if any other drug is involved, it's always the fault of THAT drug....not remeron.

Not good advice from where I sit.

The disservice that Builder does is inappropriate at best.

[[bu...]]

 

 

It is almost certainly the diazepam.  Benzos cause significant dependency,  mirtazipine very little, if any.

 

And your doc did nothing wrong. Mirt is a very effective anxiolytic/anti-depressant with  much safer profile than most ADs. Many BBs have found mirt to be very helpful, and have had few, if any, problems coming off.

 

FWIW, I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

But.....you also posted THIS didn't you? You conviently edited your very own post.

I have a major problem with your conclusion that diazepam was/is undoubtedly the culprit since mirtazepine is a breeze to discontinue.

 

Well of course I  posted that.  That's exactly what I said!

 

If you'll just go the the first page of this thread and read the second post, you will see that, yes, I posted that.  You will also note that it has NOT been edited.

 

 

FWIW, I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

And I copy/pasted into the post above, making clear that comment on Remeron withdrawal was my personal experience

 

I took 30mg/day for 3 years, then did a 2 week taper (15mg wk 1, 7.5mg wk 2, then stopped) and had zero wd sxs.

 

[[be...]]

If you look back at builder's posts, he did not recommend a fast taper. He just said what HE did. I don't want to cause trouble and get people mad here so maybe someone should start a thread in the support group? That way, many people can see it and respond and hopefully support each other. Like call it the Remeron Support Group?