Someone PLEASE explain this!

[[Wi...]]

Assuming everyone reaches tolerance withdrawal, how does someone "stabalise" while tapering? That doesnt make sense. If your in tolerance withdrawal how can you some how stabalise and then lower your dose?  If we could actually "stabalise" outselves,  ie remain stable and not experience withdrawal at a progressively lower dose then why would we get off benzos to begin with? Ive never stabalised on a set benzo dose which allowed me to lower my dose and then stabalise on that lower dose. Ive always done the exact opposit ie would need to up my dose to feel the same effect as i thougnt we all did. That directly contradicts the fact that we reach tolerance so im hoping someone can logically explain this to me- that is if anyone even reads this post. Hang tough!

[[er...]]

Well, hey, I agree with you - from my personal experience with clonazepam, I was never "stable" while tapering.  Even about 5 years ago, my GP lowered my dose from 2.0mg to 1.5, and I was screwed up for about 2 years.. Then I guess I thought I had "stabilized" after doing lots of consistent exercise - but I was still on 1.5mg, so - as I see it now, I don't think it's possible to be near "stable" while taking this drug.

 

During my 7 month taper, like I said, I definitely never felt even close to "stable"  - that's just my experience..

 

Eric

[[Do...]]

Some people who are in severe tolerance withdrawal actually feel better once they start lowering their dose.  I don't know the reasoning behind it.  As far as stabilizing, I don't think it is a matter of the medicine "working" as opposed to if you hit a dosage where the side effects are extreme, you don't want to drop your dose any more until some of these symptoms settle down a bit, so they don't get worse with another drop.  It is possible you may never actually stabilize while reducing your dose, but that is very individual.  Good luck!

[[Wi...]]

Thats what i dont understand. How could the synptoms "settle down a bit?" That directly contradicts tolerance withdraw. Ive "detoxed" off valium many times by taking a daily lower and lower dose and i never "stabalised"-rather with each detox cut i made it became more and more difficult. I just wonder why people use the word "stabalise" because if you actually could be stable on benzos why would we quit to begin with? I thought we quit because we were suffering tolerance withdrawals. Tolerance withdrawals dont "go away" by lower your dose-they get worse. So somehow getting stabalised during a taper would seem like it isnt even true so why do we use that terminology? Why not be honest and say "with each progressive cut its gonna be a real bitch and will get harder and harder?" I understand the process of tapering and i know it is the ONLY way to suffer the least amount. But by saying you will stabalise that gives false hope because then when someone begins to taper and they dont stabalise they might start to believe they are doing something wrong or that tapering isnt working for them.

[[Vi...]]

I agree with you. I never stabilize on Clonazepam or remeron. I came off 2 times Clonazepam and 3 times remeron. Never ever stabilized. It was gradualy getting worst each time I went back on it. I just know I was never sick like this before this afoul drug I took. I had nausea and some sleep problem  but not like this. this is hell now.

Hugs

[[Su...]]

Your logic shows that are very intelligent. This is why I jumped and did a faster taper (Not recommended, however).

I read the Ashton Manuel and I read that only 60% have success this way. That means 40% do not have success (and that's nearly half!!!). Since I was already hitting tolerance 5 days in, I knew why my symptoms were worsening and didn't want to be on it anymore.

 

I guess the basic point is that when stopping cold turkey you REALLY go through hell. I would say there are levels of HELL...

 

It's such an individual choice. That's why I like reading a lot of stories and how people do things. In the end you know your body and you have to do what is best for you. stabilizing may be better than full on CRAZY!!! LOL

[[of...]]

I think stabalizing is a term for people who havent hit a terribly high tolerance. I'm assuming that those people feel somewhat stable on their regular dose. Then after they make a micro cut it might take a week or two to re-stabalize on their lower dose..

 

In my case, i was so badly kindled that i could double my dose and i might have a week of relief before i started going backwords again. I made about 50 cuts during the weaning off of 4mg of xanax.. And i never stabilized.  . it took several years for me to begin to feel stable

[[Ch...]]

My experience and thought processes are just like yours and SunnyG....

Without naming names, there are currently approximately 5 prolific posters suffering tremendously while struggling to stabilize before continuing their taper...and it just is NOT happening according to their posts and I wonder if it ever will, especially since some have even up dosed and/or reinstated and are still suffering very much...in my opinion maybe there needs to be some rethinking of the way the taper is working.

Since this is just my opinion I hope no one slams me, because I did NOT say no one should ever taper....I just think it does not work in every case. Do I think tapering is worth a try?  YES!!

But if a person is already in tolerance withdrawal I just cannot scientifically understand how a taper could help reduce the suffering....again, I am stating MY opinion and MY point of view!!!

 

[[Su...]]

Yep. I think also adding to what you said. Everyone's system is different. But not so different because like I stated earlier from the Ashton Manual- only 60% have success beating the hell hole and the other supposed 40% "have bad W/D symptoms tapering correctly." If that is true (and I took her word for it when I was trying to decide what I should do), then you have about a 50/50 chance either way (40/60 to be exact according to Dr. Ashton). I can't say I did or did not do the right thing. All I can say is I was a short term user by what I thought (2 months), and I went through HELL and still have ringing ears, and jerking along with a bunch of other wired stuff. I also belong to a few other support groups and am watching them suffer WAAAAAYYYY WORSE than me and they are "still tapering and holding". So...

[[Wi...]]

My experience and thought processes are just like yours and SunnyG....

Without naming names, there are currently approximately 5 prolific posters suffering tremendously while struggling to stabilize before continuing their taper...and it just is NOT happening according to their posts and I wonder it ever will, especially since some have even up dosed and/or reinstated and are still suffering very much...in my opinion maybe there needs to be some rethinking of the way the taper is working.

Since this is just my opinion I hope no one slams me, because I did NOT say no one should ever taper....I just think it does not work in every case. Do I think tapering is worth a try?  YES!!

But if a person is already in tolerance withdrawal I just cannot scientifically understand how a taper could help reduce the suffering....again, I am stating MY opinion and MY point of view!!!

 

 

 

 

Choco

I 100% understand the logic behind tapering. You are giving your brain/body a progressively lower dose of the drug you are addicted to which gives the brain/body time to adjust to the lower and lower dose INSTEAD of the shock that we go thru doing a cold turkey and abrubtly removing the drug. This goes for all drugs. You do a lower dose with every passing day and it minimizes the withdrawal effect. Tapering is truly the only way to go from withdrawing from any drug if you have that luxury.  BUT-in all cases with all drugs you never become "stable"-especially with benzodiazipines. On the one hand you have every benzo user who reaches tolerance whom is in a continual withdrawal because the body is screaming for more of the drug. On the other hand you have people who claim you will become "stable" on a progressively lower and lower dose. Those two statements directly contradict themselves so im curious as to why the word "stabalize" was ever included in taperings lexicon because its impossible to become stable if tolerance withdrawal exists. Obviously tolerance withdrawal is true so why did Ashton or whomever claim that we would "stabalize" on a lower dose that we just reached tolerance from? When you are in tolerance withdrawal the withdrawal doesnt magically go away with a lower dose. Thats insane to believe that so why is it tossed around as fact? Then i read posts from people who claim they actually have stabalized while tapering and if that is true then that person could never have experienced tolerance withdrawal so why are they getting off benzos to begin with? If i never reached tolerance wd-and every pill i ingested gave me the same euphoria as the very first pill gave me, i would have had no reason to stop taking benzos. I stopped benzos because i was in constant withdrawal because of tolerance so how could i suddenly stabalise at a lower dose? Im only harping on this subject because "stabalization" seems to be an integral part of all benzodiazipine tapering literature and come to find out its one big fat lie. So why did they include the idea of becoming "stable" to begin with? Why would whomever instill an intentional lie? To give false hope or.....? I have no idea.

[[do...]]

For me, "Stable" still meant feeling awful. I was able to function for the most part, but felt terrible. I did a rapid taper though, as I was pretty much dying in tolerance WD.

[[Ch...]]

Yes..so what you are saying is to do a proper taper to give transmitters and receptors and systems a chance to recover, but not with the expectation of "stabilizing" with each dosage change if you are already starting out in tolerance/inter-dose withdrawal...yes?  I agree with all of that....if a person is not already in a situation of tolerance for whatever reason they might experience stabilization with each dosage change, but to set out with the expectation of stabilizing each time could be a cause of mental suffering.

Yes, Donnieogik, "stable"  probably covers a whole lot of suffering!!

[[dr...]]

I was in severe tolerance but still did a 26 month taper.  I couldn't go any faster.  I pushed as much as I could. This probably allowed me to suffer in the fifth level of hell instead of the ninth    I always felt awful but I was still able to do things to survive.  If I cut any faster I think I would have lost everything.  I almost did anyway.

While in tolerance withdrawal and taking the drug your still getting medicated. When you rapidly taper your shocking the transmitters more than a slow taper. 

I really think there is no way out of suffering once in tolerance. It all sucks.

[[Su...]]

yep. it does suck. I'd be lost without faith and health (and BB )

[[si...]]

once I hit tolerance it didn't matter how much I took I was in a nightmare.

I tapered for about 20 months and felt like hell and 18 months off still am not doing great.

 

So for me there was no such thing as being on a stable dose.

Maybe if I could have stabilized I would still be taking this crap. You knows

 

[[Wi...]]

once I hit tolerance it didn't matter how much I took I was in a nightmare.

I tapered for about 20 months and felt like hell and 18 months off still am not doing great.

 

So for me there was no such thing as being on a stable dose.

Maybe if I could have stabilized I would still be taking this crap. You knows

 

 

 

"Maybe if i would have stabalised i could still be taking this crap" is precisely my point. Why would we ever quit benzos if we actually stabalised on a given dosage? We wouldnt. So why does all the literature say that we do become stable on a given dose while we taper? Instead of saying "stabalise on a dose and then make a cut and then stabalise on that dose" they should say "when you think you are prepared to suffer even more then you are now,  then make a cut and suffer awhile on that  dose and then make another cut when youre ready to suffer even more" etc. when referring to tapering. Why do they intentionally give false hope by saying you will become stable instead of the truth that you will suffer even more so with each incremental cut?

[[dr...]]

I see your point and I agree w most of it except not every cut was worse. As I got lower I felt better at times. By better, I mean just slightly dying feeling instead of full dying feeling. 

 

I think this really only applies to us lucky ones in tolerance withdrawal. Not everyone hits tolerance withdrawal.

[[Wi...]]

If they dont hit tolrance withdrawal why would they quit using benzos?

[[dr...]]

many peop[le are trying to quit them because they are now learning they are not so harmless.  People fall more, dementia risk, etc...

[[Wi...]]

Ive never heard someone who is suffering thru withdrawal say they are kicking benzos because they were afraid of falling or getting dementia from them.